General Skating Chat

[hoodie axel]

1 hour ago, Neenah said:

Not really since we know he replaces it when he is conserving energy so it is not for the levels only. I think it is there for more sentimental reason or because he just likes that he can do it 

 

1 hour ago, airi said:

Not really, because he can easily get level 4 without a Biellmann (and done this many times). It's more uniqeness of it, I think. And one of these Yuzu things 

Not what I meant. He does indeed put in a Biellmann to get a level four. Whether or not he can get a level four without it is not the point.When he does a Biellmann in a spin, he's doing it for the level. If he were being dinged for it not being a good position for him (either through poor GOE, or not being bumped up a level), who knows if he would still be doing it? Or if he were, it would be made much better in that case. And who knows if he would still do Biellmann if levels weren't a thing?

[yuzupon]

1 hour ago, hoodie axel said:

Yuzuru's layback ina bauer is good.

 

I think his Biellmann should be dropped, not because someone else has a better one, but because it's just not a good position for him. It's literally there to get a level. It's like Yuna Kim's I-Spin, which she used to sometimes hold for 8 revolutions just to get a level.

Nah, considering he does it also in his EX, it's more than just to retain level. I've mentioned it before, it's a point of pride. Which, when he wasn't able to, mostly to conserve energy due to messing up a jump hence needed a YOLO later, or because he was still injured, he dropped it anyway.

 

Also, as @Katt said, the alternative, the A-spin, now THAT is not a good spin position. 

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

For me, I shall always be glad, that for Yuzu, as long as he still could, his Biellmann is here to stay. People can say it's not a good position. Spin level and GOE say it's ok score-wise. And the sentimental and pride value is there, too. So, I say, keep it, boy!

 

[yuzuangel]

10 minutes ago, yuzupon said:

Nah, considering he does it also in his EX, it's more than just to retain level. I've mentioned it before, it's a point of pride. Which, when he wasn't able to, mostly to conserve energy due to messing up a jump hence needed a YOLO later, or because he was still injured, he dropped it anyway.

 

Also, as @Katt said, the alternative, the A-spin, now THAT is not a good spin position. 

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

For me, I shall always be glad, that for Yuzu, as long as he still could, his Biellmann is here to stay. People can say it's not a good position. Spin level and GOE say it's ok score-wise. And the sentimental and pride value is there, too. So, I say, keep it, boy!

 

His Biellmann is one of my favorite spins!! 

 

People are saying his Ina Bauer isn't good? I think Yulia and Shizuka gets a better back arch but Yuzu has crazy hip turnout and speed into his Ina and his layback is pretty good too, even compared to ladies' skaters. Flexibility isn't anything and everything .. (and he is pretty flexible anyway, we're literally comparing him to the bests in history, who are also not male skaters...his back is better than Yuna, fwiw, and she has a beautiful layback Ina Bauer regardless)

[airi]

Everyone loves butt spins 

 

I think we all can agree that Yuzu can do anything he wants anyway  I hope he keeps IB... 

[kaeryth]

I'm not a fan of butt spins but I liked the changes he did for Olympic Chopin's buttspin with his hand behind his back and the transition to his foot going up to head(?) spin looked a lot smoother...

 

VS

[source: http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com]

[EisElle]

13 hours ago, xeyra said:

I actually think his layback IB is pretty great. He doesn't need to bend over on the back as much as Yulia or Shizuka to have a good layback IB.

 

His Biellman, on the other hand, is just passable. I like the teardrop shape he gets it into, since I don't really like hyperextended Biellmans, but he slows down a bunch and the foot dropping used to be terrible (he's improved it somewhat). 

Actually the thing I love the most of Yuzu's Biellman is how he matches the obvious slowing down with the music. It makes for a beautiful effect, so I forgive his Biellman looking far from effortless Also, how he's learned to drop his leg (in Worlds H&L was so beautiful)

8 hours ago, Katt said:

Yuzuru's biellmann is not great but I will take it over A spin any day. Its impressive that he still can do biellman at the age of 23. I recall alot people predict he would lost biellman once he turned 18/19.

And I like his Olympic A spin a lot, in particular the one he made in practice when iirc it had a slightly wider angle than during SP (usually I find A spin with wider legs angle, like Boyang's, more pleasing to the eye. Sorry Zu! But your sit spins are my absolute faves! Also your entries and how you unravel at the endso hypnotic)

Oh @kaeryth already posted about that. Yeah, the whole combo was better, usually that's the spin I love less in Ballade but I love the variations he made at Olys

ngl, tho, when Yuzuru will stop doing the Biellman I'll miss it...I've missed it in Seimei, and I was so happy to see it back for the Swan at Olys...in that choreo that spin looks particularly good to me, it adds something special

 

btw I've read, maybe on this board, that actually the layback InaBauer is more taxing for the back than the Biellman...anyone could confirm? (and who was the comentator saying Biellman required more flexibility in arms and shoulders rather than in the back? Was it Johnny? And I think @Xen was the one who tried and said the hardest part was not getting into position but keeping her leg up?)

 

[Xen]

6 hours ago, LadyLou said:

btw I've read, maybe on this board, that actually the layback InaBauer is more taxing for the back than the Biellman...anyone could confirm? (and who was the comentator saying Biellman required more flexibility in arms and shoulders rather than in the back? Was it Johnny? And I think @Xen was the one who tried and said the hardest part was not getting into position but keeping her leg up?)

 

1) Bielman requires more flexibility in arms and shoulders- this was Johnny Weir I think.

2) Yes, we tried to pull ourselves into bielman position once for fun, no spinning though. We helped each other into position by holding/pushing up knees etc, and I managed to get into it easily enough. But holding it was another matter- it required a lot more butt, back and thigh strength than expected, and that directly effected how much strain was on my shoulder/arms.

 

Edit: since we're on the topic of Zu's spins, I tend to like his spins, they're gorgeous. But if I had to choose, I'd also choose sit spins for Zu, since he does have a knack of picking up speed, and is very low even on a back sit spin (which many skaters tend to hold at just or slightly more than 90 degrees-Zu sits pretty low on it), his broken leg is also amazing.  But other spins:

1) A-spin: also known affectionately as the "butt spin." I really don't like this spin in general, because it usually invovles a very pointy tiny butt sticking up in the air in a really awkward position. Yes, we all know skaters have amazing glutes, but having focus drawn to it in a spin is a bit...ehem, ungraceful. Yuzu's recent conversion to a wider free leg, a slightly flatter butt curvature overall, makes it a bit more tolerable.

2) After a weekend of watching disaster camel spins at practice, I must say, Yuzu has beautiful camel spins-he has his shoulder and hips level (leg is actually high for a guy), and stretched out, fully extended. His speed on camel spins is also good- which is interesting because camel spins are one type of spins where it's not possible to gather more speed in the spin, you just rely on the entry.

[Gaby]

12 hours ago, yuzuangel said:

His Biellmann is one of my favorite spins!! 

 

People are saying his Ina Bauer isn't good? I think Yulia and Shizuka gets a better back arch but Yuzu has crazy hip turnout and speed into his Ina and his layback is pretty good too, even compared to ladies' skaters. Flexibility isn't anything and everything .. (and he is pretty flexible anyway, we're literally comparing him to the bests in history, who are also not male skaters...his back is better than Yuna, fwiw, and she has a beautiful layback Ina Bauer regardless)

Yes!!  That turnout ,  so effortless,  never comes  from  his  knees!  

[TallyT]

11 hours ago, airi said:

Everyone loves butt spins 

 

I think we all can agree that Yuzu can do anything he wants anyway  I hope he keeps IB... 

 

Just now, TallyT said:

I think we all can agree that Yuzu is going to do anything he wants anyway... and that's the way we like him.

 

[robin]

Just wanna join the chorus of Yuzu‘s IB is great. It may not be as low as Shizuka‘s and maybe I‘m saying this because I am an extremely biased Yuzu fan (TM) but the super low laybacks, while gorgeous, make me a bit uncomfortable when watching. On the other hand Yuzu‘s layback IB is perfect to me. Yuzu‘s layback, how he expresses them, how much speed he has in them, his position and especially how he uses his arms in them(!!) is perfect to me. 

 

I agree his Biellmann isn’t the best and he looses speed in them but to me his rounder Biellmann position is pretty, too. It would look weird if he had a tighter position? I think he should keep it for all it’s worth 

[Danibellerika]

6 hours ago, robin said:

Just wanna join the chorus of Yuzu‘s IB is great. It may not be as low as Shizuka‘s and maybe I‘m saying this because I am an extremely biased Yuzu fan (TM) but the super low laybacks, while gorgeous, make me a bit uncomfortable when watching. On the other hand Yuzu‘s layback IB is perfect to me. Yuzu‘s layback, how he expresses them, how much speed he has in them, his position and especially how he uses his arms in them(!!) is perfect to me. 

 

I agree his Biellmann isn’t the best and he looses speed in them but to me his rounder Biellmann position is pretty, too. It would look weird if he had a tighter position? I think he should keep it for all it’s worth 

I like Yuzu's ina too.  Shizuka's back position is a little unusual and her legs don't have the best spread on them (allows for her to lean back like that), so I actually am a little ambivalent about the overall impression of it (and I've been watching since 2000s comparing how both she and Sasha did them). I appreciate that the back position is rare but I think when the legs have a wider spread it makes the move look "bigger".  JMHO. 

 

I'm another one that doesn't care for the biellmann. When he omits it, I don't miss it or remember it's gone. It's just that after it's pointed out he didn't do it, then I start to wonder if he's okay.   The layback, as it is now I'm not a fan. He would either need to fix the free leg or keep it down altogether to make it more appealing to me. But it's nice that he's trying things he doesn't always do.  Either way, my fave "flexible" spin for him is still the donut spin and I don't see that changing anytime soon.  I could watched him do it all day.

[Old Cat Lady]

My only gripe with Yuzuru's Biellman is that he loses so much speed on it.  I find that it detracts from the program in his competitive skates.  However, when he used it to gracefully float to the end of his program in Notte Stellata it was beautiful.  If he can either maintain speed better or only use it situationally, I think it's great.

 

I've started to warm up to Yuzuru's butt spin.  It looks okay when it's a transitional spin and I loved how he used it to accent the nuance of the music at the Olympics.  I think Shoma and Alina's more horizontal A-spins are actually nice - well, as nice as a butt spin can be anyway

 

To me, both his Ina Bauer and hydroblade are overused.  They're nice enough moves but there's more impressive Ina Bauer's out there and I just don't think the hydroblade always fits - they don't need to be forced into every program.  To me, he has much more interesting moves that are not only uniquely his but he does better than anyone else.  He has so many signature moves now - I'd much rather see more of a mix of the delayed axel, the Zusa (or other slide like element since I think I'll always tie it to LGC), the skid he does in Parisienne Walkways, as well as some moves he doesn't generally do like split jumps or spirals.  Though I have to say, I've always underestimated the hydroblade until I saw Boyang do it - you don't realize how hard something is until you see it done poorly.

 

Does a delayed axel count as a jumping pass?  I've also always loved that Artur Dmitriev leap and would love to see someone do that again.  

 

I was also wondering if the 4 axel can be used for the short program.  I'm not sure if the wording is double or triple or if it's any axel type jump - though the latter doesn't make sense since singles don't count.  Just imagine the monster sp score if Yuzu could use it in the short - with that in mind, it makes the most sense of all the jumps to learn since there's a huge difference between a 4axel and 3 axel but minimal difference between the different kinds of quads

[OonsieHui]

Are there really any more impressive ina bauer's out there amongst the men? Amongst the ladies yes but not amongst the men. His Biellman is again, second (?) best amongst the men currently. And literally no one else does hydroblade?

 

Idk, it feels a bit like "unless his 'x' is the best there's no point him doing it" which feels a bit ridiculous to me. 

 

That said, I do agree that primarily for me the important thing is that a spin or element fit the music, and honestly so far I feel like his ina baeur's and hydroblades have fit beautifully with the music. It can feel a tiny bit repetitive in that his free skates always have roughly the same elements, but honestly I'm not sure what else you can expect from him. 

[hoodie axel]

14 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

Does a delayed axel count as a jumping pass? 

It may be used in the ChSq.

 

14 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

I was also wondering if the 4 axel can be used for the short program. 

The SP has to have a 2A or a 3A. The 4A can be the solo jump, or done in combination. Unless someone can do steps into a solo 4A, it will probably left for the FS (or not done at all, because of the proposed new reward for it).

14 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

hydroblade until I saw Boyang do it - you don't realize how hard something is until you see it done poorly.

His was alright, not the fastest. A real example of bad hydroblades would be Medvedeva -- to the point I can't even call it a hydroblade.

[Old Cat Lady]

6 minutes ago, OonsieHui said:

Are there really any more impressive ina bauer's out there amongst the men? Amongst the ladies yes but not amongst the men. His Biellman is again, second (?) best amongst the men currently. And literally no one else does hydroblade?

 

Idk, it feels a bit like "unless his 'x' is the best there's no point him doing it" which feels a bit ridiculous to me. 

I would agree that none of the other men do the Ina Bauer better and he's certainly does the best Bielmann of the top guys and 2nd best overall.  What I meant by that comment is that I don't think they're so spectacular that they absolutely have to be in every program and he has so many other options that he does well that I'd rather see him mix it up

 

As for the hydroblade, I guess I just don't like the move as much as others do though he does it well