General Skating Chat

[swanbeau]

3 hours ago, xeyra said:

further info says after getting the 1-3 bullets a skater needs one more out of 4-6 for +4 and two more for +5.

 

Anyways, I expect this to get as abused as it is with the current scale, more so even because of how subjective 'very good' height and distance can be. No judge is going to be measuring a jump to see if it falls under very good......

Just one more for +4 seems to be too little... Especially when all 3 bullets before it is subjective enough

 

What bullet does it need for +1 then? One (1)? Smh wasnt there 8 bullets over all? Getting +3 used to be so hard, like, sometimes you cant even get it w/o hitting like 6, now you hit 5 and you get +5? That doesnt sound ridiculous at all 🙄

 

3 hours ago, WinForPooh said:

I am not as annoyed about limiting the bonus for second half jumping passes. It is a great test of endurance, but it does make the programme look odd more often than not. It's a sport with rules, and one rule was introduced to discourage frontloading, which made skates oddly unbalanced. Now that rule is being amended to discourage complete backloading, because that also makes skates often oddly off-balance and avoiding that end result was the intention of that rule in the first place. Stamina is one of the key assets of the athlete, but it appears that rule weighted the advantage of stamina too heavily and the amendment seeks to adjust that a little. As long as more than half of jumping passes in the second half gets a bonus, I think it's fair enough. 

yeah, I agree. I guess besides variety, balance is what they value. Its not necessarily about rewarding or not rewarding stamina. Although still a bit 🤔 at it 'coincidentaly' affecting the russian girls, the one who scores exponentially high, the most. Not that I disagree.

[yuzuangel]

3 hours ago, WinForPooh said:

I am also here *smh* at how the most obviously subjective points were chosen as the mandatory ones. I mean, in theory, I actually agree with that - no jump should max out on points unless it's a beautiful jump. A very good jump that is technically within allowed limits should get the BV that's counted on when layout is planned, but the extra should be for going beyond, and maxing out should be for beautiful jumps. But I have a shirt that says beauty is in the eye of the beerholder, and here, effortlessness is going to be in the pocket of the powerful federation. That is very annoying.

 

I am not as annoyed about limiting the bonus for second half jumping passes. It is a great test of endurance, but it does make the programme look odd more often than not. It's a sport with rules, and one rule was introduced to discourage frontloading, which made skates oddly unbalanced. Now that rule is being amended to discourage complete backloading, because that also makes skates often oddly off-balance and avoiding that end result was the intention of that rule in the first place. Stamina is one of the key assets of the athlete, but it appears that rule weighted the advantage of stamina too heavily and the amendment seeks to adjust that a little. As long as more than half of jumping passes in the second half gets a bonus, I think it's fair enough. 

Yeah, TBH it gives judges a lot more judging leeway, because when we ask "Why didn't this jump that hits all 6 of the + GOE bullets get +3? Why did Judge #X give a +1 for this decent jump?" they can easily come up with some longer winded but still valid under these rules scenario where oh, the jump wasn't high enough so it didn't activate the bonus round, blah blah like a bad video game lmao

[katonice]

These new GOE rules are starting to look like maths. It's getting so complicated I'm starting to feel sorry for the judges who continually have to be doing that extra step of deciding whether a skater's jump should be capped at +3 or not first, then decide which extra bullets apply, and how many, and how much +points those add up to, before being able to punch in that score. And they have to do this for how many jumps in a program and how many programs in a day? Maybe this is the real reason they've reduced the number of jumping passes for the men... 

 

And all this added complexity doesn't even guarantee they'll get it right in the end... 

[WinForPooh]

1 hour ago, swanbeau said:

yeah, I agree. I guess besides variety, balance is what they value. Its not necessarily about rewarding or not rewarding stamina. Although still a bit 🤔 at it 'coincidentaly' affecting the russian girls, the one who scores exponentially high, the most. Not that I disagree.

Yeah that's iffy. Can't shake the feeling that they're cracking down on it also because of who figured out ways to maximise the bonus clause. They made the rules, there's no point being annoyed that people figured out how to get the most out of the rules. But I guess they will keep making rules, until the judges need to solve a quadratic equation before they can hit GOE on a jump! Seriously, the real problem is application of existing rules, so their solution is to complicate the rules even more. Even in an ideal no-bias perfectly objective world that's a bonkers way to solve this. 

[ralucutzagy]

 

[singermelodie1]

The biggest problem for me is the judging.

ISU should be the one selecting and paying the judges. Federations selecting and paying them is one way to corrupt the system.

Think about it. Would you be harsh against someone who's paying you?

 

The judges would always try to put their own countries first and it's detrimental to small federation too.

[getsurenka]

https://jumpitwithashuulanditwithapa.tumblr.com/post/173325212893/state-of-japanese-skating-intro-post-im-not

 

A little off the trend of topic being discussed, but this is such an interesting post on skating in JPN and all the different schools there. (Thanks to@kaerb for sharing on Twitter!)

 

This is so funny though (and so true!):

Quote

Sendai: yoloed its way to the only Olympic Gold Medals JSF has even seen for figure skating. 

 

[swanbeau]

7 hours ago, ralucutzagy said:

 

of course! The time cutting is such a stupid thing to do, in my opinion the most ridiculous one out of this whole changes. the non quad repetition wouldnt even see the light of day, wouldnt even crossed their minds, had they not cut the time. Since that rule really is just a way to prevent another problem that might rise with the time cutting.

 

The GOE -+5 and BV changes are honestly fine, in general, on their own, if we're feeling optimistic and not fussing too much over details (we're not tho, complaining over the smallest detail is what we do best here and we're proud of it ). But time cutting is just straight up selfish. It literally has no positive advantage for skaters, not even when we're feeling optimistic; every skaters and coaches know about rhythm and how much time it needs to do quads, etc. And it spoiled every little bit of "good intention" they have with the GOE and BV changes, and what little "progress" that changes might have shown. They just did it for themselves. Either commercial reasons or money or some kinda sponsor getting their way or something. And they cant just come outright and say or even imply it, so they disguise it with everything else. But the contradiction still stands out lmao

 

11 hours ago, katonice said:

Maybe this is the real reason they've reduced the number of jumping passes for the men... 

 

And all this added complexity doesn't even guarantee they'll get it right in the end... 

 

The number of jumping passes being reduced is just a result of the time cutting, i dont think it can be considered as what they originally aim, and therefore has no actual reason behind it, technically. And as we could see from the past, from zayak rule, the number of jumping pass and repeated jumps goes hand in hand with each other. And voila we get all this mess we have with the new rules. I know you're not serious and just wondering tho ^^

[cinemacoconut]

Is it OFFICIAL that there are only 7 jumping passes next season or is it speculation?

 

 

Im so used to 8 jumping passes. 

[ralucutzagy]

35 minutes ago, cinemacoconut said:

Is it OFFICIAL that there are only 7 jumping passes next season or is it speculation?

 

 

Im so used to 8 jumping passes. 

There are just proposals, the ISU congress  is scheduled in June ... then we'll know everything for sure.

[xeyra]

The 7 jump passes and 30s less program runtime has been approved already in a previous congress, I think? But just being applied starting this next season. 

[cinemacoconut]

1 hour ago, xeyra said:

The 7 jump passes and 30s less program runtime has been approved already in a previous congress, I think? But just being applied starting this next season. 

 

 

I guess it makes the sport less quad jump centred so good for Yuzu. 

 

 

[OonsieHui]

question. everyone's been focused on the changes to jumps, so I haven't seen much other information floating around. Is there any sources on any changes to spins, steps etc? 

 

Honestly, part of me thinks that unless they make a significant change such that spins and steps are valued to the point where they play a more significant portion in marks relative to jumps, none of these rules really make the sport "less quad jump centered". A major point currently is that some skaters can just discard skating skills and spins etc and just rely on jumps (quads specifically), and make it, because the BV of quads are just so dang high compared to the other components. Until they balance that we're not really getting anywhere in terms of systematic pushing for a "perfect package" skater. 

[swanbeau]

5 hours ago, OonsieHui said:

A major point currently is that some skaters can just discard skating skills and spins etc and just rely on jumps (quads specifically), and make it, because the BV of quads are just so dang high compared to the other components.

 

that's where the BV change comes in. since they're lowering quads bv while the triples stay (at least i hope the triples stay bc yikes if otherwise), theoretically they cant rely only on quads anymore. and tbh even now skaters cant just afford to discard spins because 1 point is still 1 point, too many close fight recently. i know what you mean though, some skaters just seem to not care about it, but maybe it has more to do with them not being as passionate about things theyre not good at ^^

 

i've been thinking about this too actually. bv spins right now are ranging from 1.0 - 3.5 i think, about the same with mostly double jumps (and lower triples). while stsq range from 1.5 to 3.9. and freaking chsq's bv, that has no level so they automatically get the bv even if its just (1) not good spread eagle, is 2.0.

 

how is that even fair.... granted 2.0 is about the same bv as only level 2 spin, its still ???

 

now though, the question is, what do you think should be equal to spin lv 4? because i think it starts off mostly right, lvl b spin getting only 1 point... i mean i certainly dont think lvl b spin deserves to be in equal to double jumps. maybe it's the increment that should be higher

[katonice]

Wondering now as well about the possibility of "corridor judging" for GOEs happening more visibly. Will some skaters be categorised and scored as +3 GOE skaters whatever they do (or whatever their reputation dictates), and those who will get the nod as +5 GOE skaters. 

 

I suppose when the new scoring system starts, we'll see a slew of scores with wide ranges in GOEs for each skater, until the judges' opinions get calibrated amongst themselves and they all agree on where the skater falls in the +3 and +5 groups.

 

I know this is already happening to some extent now, but I imagine it will only be magnified and become more evident with the wider range in GOE scoring to be implemented.