General Skating Chat

[holina]

Figure skating itself should be both artistic and technical - a figure skater should strive to have both.  Therefore the judging should be based on who can combine these two the best.  Separating them is like judging a cooking competition for taste and presentation separately....so a cook can win for presentation and the food can taste like sh**.  Or the food can taste great but look like sh**.  It just doesn’t make any sense!  A skater should work towards having the complete package.  That’s the beauty of this sport.  If the current judging is fixed then they wouldn’t need to make this stupid change (and Yuzu would be the winner).

[rockstaryuzu]

2 hours ago, Paskud said:

Figures wouldn't solve anything. Does ice dance make any sense? No. Nor would figures.

I was being facetious. Of course they wouldn't . Neither will this silly idea of changing to separate artistic and technical programs. 

[Henni147]

Well, actually the short program is something like an artistic program at the moment. There are only three jump elements in 2:50 minutes, so there is enough room and energy left for a well-rounded and artistically strong performance. Truthfully, I enjoy the short program much more than the free at the moment. There are more clean skates and also more polished programs overall. The freeskate appears more like an obstacle course with 7 jump elements in 4:00 minutes. You just try to get through and stay alive.

 

I think, what will actually happen after the introduction of the new system is the following:

1. The order of the current short and free will be flipped.

2. The freeskate will be another 60 seconds shorter.

3. Skaters with only one quad or none will be sorted out after the first round and only the jumpers will be left to battle for the artistry crown.

 

Maybe skaters like Jason, who get high GOE and PCS at least, might qualify for the second round, but the stellar gap to the top will be impossible to close. I can imagine, if Nathan goes into the artistic program with a +100 point lead over Jason after the technical, Jason's motivation is... well. Skaters like Deniss Vasiljevs or Donovan Carillo will probably not make the qualification at all.

 

 

I recommend the ISU to listen this one single time to the wise words of their greatest skater:

 

"A solid technique is the foundation of artistry."

There is no art without a technical basis, nor is there perfect technique without artistic value. It's two sides of the same medal and it always will be.

Trying to separate them is a contradiction in itself.

[Fay]

They are streaming Olympics 2002 this Friday, I might get there and watch just for the sheer fun. Would many people be interested in seeing those ancient times? We might decide for ourselves whether Slutskaya indeed deserved the gold... 

 

[FlyingCamel]

3 hours ago, holina said:

Figure skating itself should be both artistic and technical - a figure skater should strive to have both.  Therefore the judging should be based on who can combine these two the best.  Separating them is like judging a cooking competition for taste and presentation separately....so a cook can win for presentation and the food can taste like sh**.  Or the food can taste great but look like sh**.  It just doesn’t make any sense!  A skater should work towards having the complete package.  That’s the beauty of this sport.  If the current judging is fixed then they wouldn’t need to make this stupid change (and Yuzu would be the winner).

So true! Very few skaters actually manage to combine both, and Yuzu does it best. And the food analogy is a great way to explain it! Hope someone from ISU reads this XD

Although if Yuzu still decides to stay on in this new system, I wonder how he will make use of it to his advantage and make his programmes still breathtakingly beautiful 😍

[sallycinnamon]

4 hours ago, holina said:

Figure skating itself should be both artistic and technical - a figure skater should strive to have both.  Therefore the judging should be based on who can combine these two the best.  Separating them is like judging a cooking competition for taste and presentation separately....so a cook can win for presentation and the food can taste like sh**.  Or the food can taste great but look like sh**.  It just doesn’t make any sense!  A skater should work towards having the complete package.  That’s the beauty of this sport.  If the current judging is fixed then they wouldn’t need to make this stupid change (and Yuzu would be the winner).

 

I agree. The problem is with judging itself and not with the current rules. But ISU won't admit that, they're changing the rules on and on instead. It won't solve the root of problems though.

It should be about who combines technique and artistry the best with applying the existing rules correctly for both the tech and the judging panels. 

 

I doubt many will be interested to watch only artistic programs (with max. 1 quad) or only technical programs with lots of quads and other jumps and without lot of choreo, difficult and varied steps, or performance. It's also kind of unfair for those who are able to jump quads/harder jumps but they won't be allowed to do harder programs in the artistic program. And I'm not even thinking about how they'll judge those programs if judges currently have problems with applying the current rules, PCS and GOEs.

[Paskud]

1 hour ago, Henni147 said:

Skaters with only one quad or none will be sorted out after the first round and only the jumpers will be left to battle for the artistry crown.

 

Maybe skaters like Jason, who get high GOE and PCS at least, might qualify for the second round, but the stellar gap to the top will be impossible to close. I can imagine, if Nathan goes into the artistic program with a +100 point lead over Jason after the technical, Jason's motivation is... well. Skaters like Deniss Vasiljevs or Donovan Carillo will probably not make the qualification at all.

Aaah, I don't think it will be that bad. Programs in men already are jumping fests, yet we don't see that many skaters with 2 or more quads. A lot also depends what will be first (tech or art program), but yeah, tech program at the beginning will put all skaters with multiple quads in last groups and we know how important is skating order. >___>

 

This art program... in theory it maybe could be good, but in ISU hands it will be inevitably a total disaster. Yuzuru's score in Sochi was 101+, currently (hopefully) a bit more. Yet Jason's score proved that without quad, if you max out GOE and PCS, you can hit even 100. On other hand Shun's scoring showed, that you can backload your quad, yet you still will get somewhere around 80-85.😅

[Lunna]

I also see no point in changes. Artistic program will be longer short with less quads, but 2 quads SP is now not a problem for top contenders. And technical will be just a quad fest? What about ladies? They don't have quads in SP, so for artistic will be one triple or what? It will be more boring than ice dance. What about pairs?

I mostly pity juniors who will come to senior and will need to adapt to the new rules. Just because they can't judge by rulebook let's just ruin the sport. Though technical program might be more fun as artistic it's just pure judges tastes (or right Fed).

[Paskud]

9 minutes ago, Lunna said:

What about pairs?

It's so clear that they don't realise what is happening in pairs. Keep talking about technical advance, yet in pairs no one is doing quad throws or twists anymore, even 3-2-2 combos are rare and P/J are a top pair with doubles.

And excuse me, ice dance is great!😤😤😤😤

[Lunna]

1 час назад, Paskud сказал:

It's so clear that they don't realise what is happening in pairs. Keep talking about technical advance, yet in pairs no one is doing quad throws or twists anymore, even 3-2-2 combos are rare and P/J are a top pair with doubles.

And excuse me, ice dance is great!😤😤😤😤

In pairs I think it's actually good that at least quad throws are not worth the risk point wise, too much injuries during trying to learn them. Though jumps I think should be scored a little more in pairs then in singles.

About ice dance let's just agree to disagree  I prefer pairs MUCH more (and more than ladies).

[lajoitko]

On 6/16/2020 at 6:04 AM, lajoitko said:

In other news the situation in Finland is progressing really good and I am more optimistic about Finlandia Trophy. We are opening our borders to other Nordic countries excluding Sweden without guarantine times and if the situation in Europe keeps getting better, we could open our borders even more. The outside sport events are opening more and more for the audience, but the problem with figure skating is that it happens in indoors. The good thing is that the ice hockey season should start well before the event and if they can come up with some solutions how to organize the event safely, then figure skating can copy those. Ice hockey is the number one sport in Finland and I think that the economic pressure to bring the sport (and the audience) back is quite strong.

 

 

Update!

The Finnish government has just announced that all the restrictions for public gatherings will be lifted in the beginning of October (providing that the situation stays calm). I take this as a big green light for Finlandia Trophy.

[river]

Looks like the base values and GOE changes for next season are on hold, according to the new ISU communication.

 

Quote

Considering the worldwide COVID-19 developments and the slow re-opening of ice rinks and training activities and also based on feedback received from ISU Members, the Council decided to suspend with immediate effect the above-mentioned ISU Communications 2323 and 2324. The corresponding previous ISU Communications 2253 and 2254 remain basically in force. The Council, in cooperation with the Single & Pair Skating Technical Committee, is currently evaluating whether and to what extent some clarifications and minor adjustments to ISU Communications 2253 and 2254 would be necessary, and if so, will issue a new ISU Communication shortly.

 

"...based on feedback received from ISU Members..."  So what they're saying is that nobody thought having loop, flip, and lutz worth the same base value and adding yet another degree of under-rotation call to an already overly-complex and overly-subjective scoring system was a good idea?

[Paskud]

8 minutes ago, river said:

Looks like the base values and GOE changes for next season are on hold, according to the new ISU communication.

 

 

"...based on feedback received from ISU Members..."  So what they're saying is that nobody thought having loop, flip, and lutz worth the same base value and adding yet another degree of under-rotation call to an already overly-complex and overly-subjective scoring system was a good idea?

YES, get rid of that q thing, jfc.

[Fay]

Yeah, right, ISU, you keep surpassing your own past idiocies. Thanks for not making this change in the middle of a program. 

[sallycinnamon]

55 minutes ago, river said:

Looks like the base values and GOE changes for next season are on hold, according to the new ISU communication.

 

 

"...based on feedback received from ISU Members..."  So what they're saying is that nobody thought having loop, flip, and lutz worth the same base value and adding yet another degree of under-rotation call to an already overly-complex and overly-subjective scoring system was a good idea?

 

Huh. They didn't think of the consequences of the changes before?