General Skating Chat

[Xen]

17 minutes ago, axelnojutsu said:

In the article they spell his name yuzuru hanyulle is that why they can’t pronounce it

Well I'm glad they're creating shadow clones for him, as if he needed more.

Time to get them clones to go practice, chop chop.

[MajaHled]

1 hour ago, axelnojutsu said:

In the article they spell his name yuzuru hanyulle is that why they can’t pronounce it

I'm pretty sure that's just Finnish inclination rules for nouns, but it still looks funny XD

[EisElle]

6 hours ago, Xen said:

Well I'm glad they're creating shadow clones for him, as if he needed more.

Time to get them clones to go practice, chop chop.

so they can keep working on the 4A while he perfects his programs? or does he make them train his spins while he trains the fun stuff himself?

 

 

I like a lot Boyang's new SP, and expecially how he performs to it. The only issue I have with it is... how Boyang performs to it It's kinda out of tune with the lyrics, lyrics aren't sassy&cool...there's melancholy in them... (this btw was something I I also felt was a bit off in Nathan's Nemesis last season...he performed to that program in a PW kind of way, but lyrics were a bit dark. This time with Boyang the discrepancy with what lyrics say is even more pronounced IMO). Maybe it would have been better if they had used a no-lyrics version... But if I don't think about the lyrics Boyang really tries to sell the heck out of that program,  I love the energy in the stsq  where is the guitarist emojis i can't find it anymore sob

 

 

changing subject, I was thinking about Evgenia's FS layout and I wonder if she'll still go for two Lz in her second assignment... after that video of her 2A3Lo in TCC I had written down a possible layout for her with two 3Lo and two 3F and only one Lz (one of the Lo as 2A3Lo combo). imo it would be good, if she could be consistent on a 2Acombo...

of course I have no idea if the combo they filmed was one successful out of 100, and sure, BV with 2x3Lo+1xLz would still be lower than 1x3Lo+2x3Lz, but maybe she could get better GOE and it would be worth expecially if Lz is called.

She could still 'train' to improve her Lz edge by jumping one 3Lz... no need to go for a problematic jump two times in the program, IMO 2 Lz across SP and FS would be a good compromise between wanting to fight for correct edge under competition pressure and not risking too many points if an egde call happens... doing a 2A3Lo would also allow her to have only one jump with low GOE multiplier (the solo 2A)... as she improves her 2A, I think it could be a good layout for an edge jumper & 3Lo-lover like Zhenya (tho 3Lo is kinda misbehaving right now...but I guess it's because it's the first time she uses it as the last jump in a new program in a new style).

Maybe a 2A3Lo would need to be in first half if she doesn't trust the 2A and wants to have as backup the second 2A to try the combo again if something goes wrong... but then if she messed both 2A she would lose the whole BV of a 3Lo, not only a couple of points of possible edge call she risks repeating the 3Lz...

 

more layout wondering and rambling under spoiler so if you're fed up you can just skip

Spoiler

in general, I wonder why skaters who are good edge-jumpers but have edge issue on Lz or F don't repeat a 3Lo instead of a 3T...it isn't even necessary to learn a 3Lz3Lo or a 3F3Lo.

for example Kaori does

3F3T 2A 3Lz 3S // 2A3T2T 3F2T 3Lo

maybe she could instead go for

3Lo2T 3F 3Lz 3S // 2A3T2Lo 3F2T 3Lo

(I'm not sure if it's a legit layout tho, basically till now I didn't even know all doubles could be repeated only twice, I thought it was only the 2A that's why I had to change 2A3T2T into 2A3T2Lo. But I think I put all the required combo and right number of jumping passes and not zayaked anything...maybe)

well, Kaori tried to kinda YOLO a 3Lo3T...well, she had a scary fall but with training I guess she could jump a very good 3Lo2T... maybe she can't/doesn't want to do a 2A3T2Lo

of course, if a skater can't be consistently good on a jump, it's better to search for solutions with lower BV but that are likely to result in cleaner skates and higher GOE... but I think BV-wise and GOE-wise it would be a good layout, if hypotethical 3Lo2T is good and if the skater has no problems with -2Lo.

That layout would not contain any 3-3 tho... I have no idea if judges would be stingy if a skater avoids going for an "impressive" 3-3 tho... do skaters feel like they need to do a 3-3 to be taken seriously? Even if score-wise there are better layouts?  (wouldn't this be residual thinking of 6.0 era? To do a jump to impress, rather than to use the system efficiently...)

Or maybe are -3T combos somehow easier than doing a 3Lo with enough flow out to do a combo? but -2T are usually quite easy to tackle to a jump...(well, easier than a 3T for sure, so it shouldn't be hard do a 3Lo2T)

Is getting high GOE harder on 3-2 than on a 3-3? like for men it's harder to get max GOE on a (non axel) triple rather than on a quad... (forever bitter about H&L 3F never getting +3)

 

Is this the reason why some skaters prefer to have in their layout 2xsolo2A or a 2A2T2T (or 2Lo) and 2x 3-3 combos, even when it would be better to have one solo 2A and one 2A3T(or 2A3Lo) and then do a 3-2 and 3-2-2? (with a 2A3Lo they could also have one 3-3).

Or is it because good 2A technique isn't that common so many skaters just leave it alone or go for the 2A2T2T if they must? (e.g. I know Zhenya used to do 2A2T2T, but Wakaba did 2A2T2Lo too with 2x3Lz3T... when it would have been better for GOE to do a 2A3T like Kaori and Mai...)

and this is without taking 2A-1Eu-3 and 3-1Eu-3 combo into account, as the Eu combo are not that common among ladies...iirc Anastasia Tarakanova uses a 2A1Eu3S and this allows her to fill her combo quota with only one 3-3T and a 3-2T and she can repeat 3Lz and 3F without needing a -3Lo combo...

I'm just sad that so many skaters just leave all those poor 2As alone and waste the chance to have GOE with a higher multiplier... (of course if they think they'd get negative GOE it's better to have lower multiplier LOL they lose less points...)

 

well, to sum it up I'm glad I don't have to plan a layout for anyone, too hard

 

also, maybe, as a supporter of a guy who willingly gave up 20% of BV of a super-hard 'combo' just so he could boast "I have no doubles in my layout Ci",  I really shouldn't question other skaters' choices...

[MajaHled]

Honestly, I get the feeling that Boyang probably doesn't really know what the lyrics say. So I find it easier to just detach the program from the lyrics and enjoy it for what it is regardless of what the song is about. 

[makebelieveup]

22 hours ago, MajaHled said:

Honestly, I get the feeling that Boyang probably doesn't really know what the lyrics say. So I find it easier to just detach the program from the lyrics and enjoy it for what it is regardless of what the song is about. 

Are you talking about his SP? I actually had to look up the lyrics meaning after this lol I didnt pay attention to it. It seems to have pretty abstract meaning. I think Boyang is just skating to the beats and vibe he got from the music

[EisElle]

1 hour ago, makebelieveup said:

Are you talking about his SP? I actually had to look up the lyrics meaning after this lol I didnt pay attention to it. It seems to have pretty abstract meaning. I think Boyang is just skating to the beats and vibe he got from the music

that is why I wish he/the choreographers (Lori? Kurt?)  had chosen a no-lyrics version...clearly they love the music, I love it too and I like that only a little portion of the cut has lyrics (the stsq is mostly guitars). But IMO if there are lyrics, they give meaning to the music and should be taken into account for IN. But Boyang isn't the first doing this, he won't be the last. I guess it's common practice in FS (with the amount of skaters skating to pieces with cringey lyrics. I guess most of the time people just skate to what the music make them feel, regardless of the context that piece belonged to). But I'd wish there was a bit more attention.

Anyway, as I said, if I don't think about the lyrics I like that SP a lot, and to me the lyrics are more of a post-performance afterthought    When I do think about the lyrics (and the meaning they give to the piece)...idk, I, as audience, still don't care that much. Choreo suits the instrumental part anyway, without exixtential anguish planned in any move, so it isnt' as if Boyang isn't performing the choreo properly, because he is, it's just that the program was choreographed to be cool and kind of free, not a visual essay on whatever was the meaning of the lyrics

But I usually prefer when skaters really deeply understand the piece they're skating to. I guess it's because understanding the meaning, lyrics included, implies a deeper level of emotional and intellectual involvement (and committment)

I'm remarking on this because I did the same with Nathan's Nemesis, and my soft spot for Boyang and me digging his SP don't change my views

[shanshani]

I've been compiling judge's scores for some of the competitions this season (the ambition is to do it for all senior international competitions and maybe even some junior competitions, but it's a slow and tedious process) and running some numbers in order to determine how the judges scored various skaters relative to other skaters and particularly whether they overscored skaters from their own country versus skaters from other countries. I first calculated how much a judge's scores different from that of their fellow judges (that's the first table of numbers you see--eg. -11 means 11 points lower than other judges).  From this, I calculate a value (which I have temporarily named "DELTA") which indicates how much more favorably a judge judged skaters from their country versus skaters from other countries--a delta of 5 in total score means that a judge scored their own skaters 5 points higher than how they scored other skaters, adjusted for the average score the skater got from the other judges. Anyway, I've done this with 3 competitions so far (Autumn Classic, Ondrej Nepala, and GP Helsinki), which is enough that I thought some of you might be interested in seeing the results (after all, some of the judges who judged there are judging upcoming competitions).  I did the whole competition at each event, so you can see the scoring for each discipline (scroll to the right) and I also looked at raw GOE and PCS in addition to point total.

Autumn Classic

Ondrej Nepala
GP Finland
GP USA

GP Japan (work in progress)

These spreadsheet also show how much higher or lower a particular judge judged a particular skater, so I think it's also useful if you want to take a look at how some judges score particular skaters. Also, it shows the average amount a judge deviated from the rest of the judging panel, so you can also tell which judges are harsher and which are nicer. At some point I want to compile all the data so that it's sorted by judge so you can look at their judging record across competitions this season as a whole, but there's still so much work to do and I have a job and other hobbies

Which leads me to my next question--would anyone be interested in helping? I have templates for all the formulas, so all you have to do is go to the "protocols" page and copy numbers from skatingscores.com into the relevant boxes. It's a little tedious, but you can do it while watching tv and it would be immensely useful hopefully not just for me but also for the figure skating community to get a better sense of judges and judging. (Alternately, if anyone knows how to program a web scraper, that would make life so much easier for me)

[WinForPooh]

1 hour ago, shanshani said:

I've been compiling judge's scores for some of the competitions this season (the ambition is to do it for all senior international competitions and maybe even some junior competitions, but it's a slow and tedious process) and running some numbers in order to determine how the judges scored various skaters relative to other skaters and particularly whether they overscored skaters from their own country versus skaters from other countries. I first calculated how much a judge's scores different from that of their fellow judges (that's the first table of numbers you see--eg. -11 means 11 points lower than other judges).  From this, I calculate a value (which I have temporarily named "DELTA") which indicates how much more favorably a judge judged skaters from their country versus skaters from other countries--a delta of 5 in total score means that a judge scored their own skaters 5 points higher than how they scored other skaters, adjusted for the average score the skater got from the other judges. Anyway, I've done this with 3 competitions so far (Autumn Classic, Ondrej Nepala, and GP Helsinki), which is enough that I thought some of you might be interested in seeing the results (after all, some of the judges who judged there are judging upcoming competitions).  I did the whole competition at each event, so you can see the scoring for each discipline (scroll to the right) and I also looked at raw GOE and PCS in addition to point total.

Autumn Classic

Ondrej Nepala
GP Finland
(working on Skate America now)

These spreadsheet also show how much higher or lower a particular judge judged a particular skater, so I think it's also useful if you want to take a look at how some judges score particular skaters. Also, it shows the average amount a judge deviated from the rest of the judging panel, so you can also tell which judges are harsher and which are nicer. At some point I want to compile all the data so that it's sorted by judge so you can look at their judging record across competitions this season as a whole, but there's still so much work to do and I have a job and other hobbies

Which leads me to my next question--would anyone be interested in helping? I have templates for all the formulas, so all you have to do is go to the "protocols" page and copy numbers from skatingscores.com into the relevant boxes. It's a little tedious, but you can do it while watching tv and it would be immensely useful hopefully not just for me but also for the figure skating community to get a better sense of judges and judging. (Alternately, if anyone knows how to program a web scraper, that would make life so much easier for me)

 

Wow, thank you, that's... a LOT of work! 

 

 

[salty]

i read on twitter that Shoma captures the grieving tone of Moonlight Sonata very well and i was sort of ?????? at that. Like I feel his MS is maybe the most banal, baseline interpretation of Moonlight. Like if you had a STEM major listen to it and have them describe what kind of dance they're imagining they'd probably describe Shoma's? Does anyone have a different opinion? When I try to visualize his long program all i can come up with are slow crossovers and his left hand waving in the air. Is this good interpretation? Why do the judges think so? Do you think so? I think it's just that MS is such a strong piece of music that someone could be picking their nose to it and people would go, "oMG it's GeNiUs"

[Sombreuil]

I think it’s like Nathan’s FS to Polovtsian Dances in 16/17 season - US media were raving about how balletic and artistic he was and someone capable of critical thought - can’t remember who - wrote ‘Borodin is doing the heavy lifting for him in this piece’.    In other words people were reacting to a fabulous piece of music rather than the actual skating of the actual choreography- a few balletic arm waves at the right points and what are transitions?  Moonlight Sonata casts its own spell and Shoma is the beneficiary.

 

Its a pity because his ex by SLB shows he can do something besides the usual.  I know that not everyone can be like Yuzuru and Machida or would necessarily want to be - iirc Tanaka said he preferred to let his coach pick the music because he didn’t want to risk getting fed up with something he chose himself because he liked it, and he has a point- JW said towards the end of 16/17/season that Javier Fernandez was looking tired of Elvis, and I think we all were by the time poor Kolyada had slogged through the Olympic season with his version.  I just think Shoma would benefit from a change of choreographers, if only for the SP.

[hopeandlegacy2018]

1 hour ago, Vulnavia said:

In the comments of the latest TSL video, someone asked them about the fact that they're profiting off of the likenesses of skaters with these new products, and one of the things that they said in their reply was that they've given the skaters a lot of publicity over the years and the profits from this merch will help them to keep creating content that promotes skaters. I was literally  and then  at the suggestion that skaters like Yuzu or Tessa & Scott are in need of or benefiting from TSL's 'publicity' in any way.

 

I went to check the comment and it seems that one of the guys has no clue about the copyright law. I mean, please use some common sense, If this is not regulated then everyone can start a company to sell fan art merchandize of celebrities. About the publicity they give skaters: they're so mean to some skaters, I hope the skaters they insulted never got to watch it, because it's heartbreaking. 

[salty]

deleted

[SparkleSalad]

Not sure quite where to put this

 

 

[Murieleirum]

Guys, please help, what's the exact BV of Yuzuru's layout for the Free program, and how many GOE points could he stack up max? 

(trying to see how hard it would be to go over 330 tomorrow...) 

[airi]

58 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

Guys, please help, what's the exact BV of Yuzuru's layout for the Free program, and how many GOE points could he stack up max? 

(trying to see how hard it would be to go over 330 tomorrow...) 

If I calculated right, the base value should be 91,43, and the max GOE 37,15 with the planned layout... So it would be very hard. It's one jumping pass less than before after all...