General Yuzuru Chat

[anski]

I think there’s definitely a way of saying that Yuzu is underscored and Nathan overscored while appreciating Nathan’s skating. He might be lacking in artistry imho and his programs could do with more transitions, but he has a very good technique and, like it or not, he *is* one of the most skilled skaters currently competing. As you guys have said before, Yuzu probably does considering him a worthy competitor and the truth is that Nathan has no say in how he is scored or in the narratives pushed by US Fed. He’s a nice kid who has been very humble in interviews and who is working very hard and basically training himself. Acknowledging he’s a hard worker doesn’t mean other skaters don’t work equally as hard, and saying Yuzu is a more complete skater shouldn’t mean Nathan is a bad one.

[Flutterby]

1 minute ago, anski said:

I think there’s definitely a way of saying that Yuzu is underscored and Nathan overscored while appreciating Nathan’s skating. He might be lacking in artistry imho and his programs could do with more transitions, but he has a very good technique and, like it or not, he *is* one of the most skilled skaters currently competing. As you guys have said before, Yuzu probably does considering him a worthy competitor and the truth is that Nathan has no say in how he is scored or in the narratives pushed by US Fed. He’s a nice kid who has been very humble in interviews and who is working very hard and basically training himself. Acknowledging he’s a hard worker doesn’t mean other skaters don’t work equally as hard, and saying Yuzu is a more complete skater shouldn’t mean Nathan is a bad one.

Well said

[makebelieveup]

37 minutes ago, Lambari said:

I hate to play devil's advocate here but it isn't fair at all to dismiss Nathan's skating completely.  I'm sure that Yuzuru considers him a worthy contender.   He reached near the top for a reason, it wasn't just completely due to atrocious judging, he has qualities despite that.  His running edge on his landings improved a bit since the last time I saw him, they still aren't ideal but they don't end on a complete stop anymore.  His FS aren't the most complete ones out there but his SPs are usually much better choreographically in my opinion.  He isn't completely devoid of skating skills, has good posture, consistency.  I think he actually improved a lot these past few seasons.  Just compare his Michael Jackson program in US Nationals 2016   to his 2019 Worlds SP, and the improvement in evident is terms of commitment to the program and engagement. His Michael Jackson program was devoid of personality in my opinion, it felt like he was going through the motions to complete the choreography with not sense of purpose at all and a blank face.   And he doesn't come across as the guy that will completely rest while seeing his scores, he seems driven to improve and it shows. And he's also pretty young, at 19 a male skater isn't at the top of  their game artistically, Yuzuru wasn't either.  Despite the success of PW, Yuzuru improved quite a bit in this aspect, in my opiniom LGC was a much better performed program even if the scores didn't reflect that.  Although I think that Yuzuru did have at a younger age  better musicality and commitment to his programs, not to mention charisma.    My problem with Nathan has always been the lack of emotional conection that he has with his programs, even if maybe he has it deep down, it usually doesn't come across to me.     Or maybe his skating just isn't my cup of tea after all, since his skating does ressonate to his fans.  To each their own, I guess.   

Spoiler

I dont agree with this much because here's why. I dont think majority, if anyone, here is dismissing nathan's skating completely. if anything, a lot of us recognize his improvement, albeit slow as they are, over the seasons and applaud him for his consistency. what yuzu sees in him/sees him as does not equate to what everyone else should see in him. i love yuzu but i dont have to always think like him or agree with him. i dont agree that nathan is a strong opponent to him at any level, realistically. at least not yet. what i think has happened with yuzu's words from his interview is more so that he is being subject to the system and has to embrace it, normalize it. but whatever he honestly thinks about nathan's skating is up to him and I will separate my opinion from that. anyway, back to my point. i think nathan has flourished as a skater and really improved at competing under pressure. he has been more consistent in his jumps because he isnt doing 5 or 6 jumps like what he did in the past and the quality of his landings have improved through that. But what many of the complaints i have seen are coming the way the judges are scoring him. I might be okay with him getting up to +3 GOEs for his jumps. He can still get a comfortably high technical scores and podium at this age. i wouldnt give anything higher than a +1 for his other elements like his spins or stsq, though. So rather seeing him getting 120-130 technical scores, I would give him around 100-110 TES. Then on the PCS, there is really not a lot of TR, IN, COM, SS going on in his programs. You really cant give him any more than 8.5s for any of these areas. PE is a bit more subjective so I think I will give him higher for his sp. So with his total score I would say around 110+85 = 195 can be a very great fs score for him at his age. Yuzu didnt even manage to get this high until he was around 20. But the problem here is, he isnt just getting yuzu's scores at Yuzu's best, he is on his way to top them. Yuzu was not at his top game artistically at 19 but PW is to me still way better than any of nathan's skates. Look at Yuzu's rj at 17, yes he wasnt at this level of skating skills but his program is super complete. If Yuzu didnt have the same technical content Nathan has at this point, Nathan def doesnt have the same Yuzu's musicality, program completeness and commitment, and transition Yuzu did at 19. if nathan had gotten the same scores yuzu did in 2013/2014 because of the high technical score, i dont think this has been an issue. except, he is getting the same technical scores AND program component scores as the current yuzuru hanyu.

my last post about nathan in yuzu's thread for now. sorry!

 

[mercedes]

5 minutes ago, makebelieveup said:

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I dont agree with this much because here's why. I dont think majority, if anyone, here is dismissing nathan's skating completely. if anything, a lot of us recognize his improvement, albeit slow as they are, over the seasons and applaud him for his consistency. what yuzu sees in him/sees him as does not equate to what everyone else should see in him. i love yuzu but i dont have to always think like him or agree with him. i dont agree that nathan is a strong opponent to him at any level, realistically. at least not yet. what i think has happened with yuzu's words from his interview is more so that he is being subject to the system and has to embrace it, normalize it. but whatever he honestly thinks about nathan's skating is up to him and I will separate my opinion from that. anyway, back to my point. i think nathan has flourished as a skater and really improved at competing under pressure. he has more consistent in his jumps because he isnt doing 5 or 6 jumps like what he did in the past and the quality of his landings have improved through that. But what many of the complaints i have seen are coming the way the judges are scoring him. I might be okay with him getting up to +3 GOEs for his jumps. He can still get a comfortably high technical scores and podium at this age. i wouldnt give anything higher than a +1 for his other elements like his spins or stsq, though. So rather seeing him getting 120-130 technical scores, I would give him around 100-110 TES. Then on the PCS, there is really not a lot of TR, IN, COM, SS going on in his programs. You really cant give him any more than 8.5s for any of these areas. PE is a bit more subjective so I think I will give him higher for his sp. So with his total score I would say around 110+85 = 195 can be a very great fs score for him at his age. Yuzu didnt even manage to get this high until he was around 20. But the probrem here is, he isnt just getting yuzu's scores at Yuzu's best, he is on his way to top them. Yuzu was not at his top game artistically at 19 but PW is to me still way better than any of nathan's skates. Look at Yuzu's rj at 17, yes he wasnt at this level of skating skills but his program is super complete. If Yuzu didnt have the same technical content Nathan has at this point, Nathan def doesnt have the same Yuzu's musicality, program completeness and commitment, and transition Yuzu did at 19. if nathan had gotten the same scores yuzu did in 2013/2014 because of the high technical score, i dont think this has been an issue. except, he is getting the same technical scores AND program component scores as the current yuzuru hanyu

my last post about nathan in yuzu's thread. sorry!

 

amen to that... the scoring  system is just 

[makebelieveup]

 

Please keep this hairstyle for next season 

[Ania]

Spoiler

4 hours ago, wildstrawberry said:

 

 

Guys, I left you for what? 4 hours? and get back to 8 new pages. wow

very sorry to bring cursed edit back, but I think that no satelite mentioned one key thing. Do you remember that yuzu said that he spoke to speed skaters and was interested in their costumes? that he could rotate faster wearing one of those costumes? I remember cursed discussion that happend on the planet around that time. Guys, this is it, the cursed design is THE costume

4 hours ago, Moria Polonius said:

 

 

1. Yuzu - duh, lol.

2. Junhwan - possibly because he reminds me of Yuzu a tiny bit.

3. Kevin Aymoz

4. Daniel Samohin - I just enjoy his over-dramatic ass.

5. ... Aliev/Kolyada

 

On that list, I would only consider Samohin to veer towards stereotypically masculine, but it's tempered by his over-the-top drama and costumes. 

 

And who, in your opinion represents the typically masculine style? I would say Kovtun, Majorov and Bychenko, but I wonder if I just don't subconsciously equate "stocky and without finesse whatsoever" with "stereotypically masculine". From past skaters, who did posess finesse, maybe Patrick and Javi? 

1.yu know who

2.Jason - was getting better and better over the years and then we got this years sp. I watched it at least 100 times. so.. sensual, masculine yet fluid and soft, and .. I have no words. It does things to me

3.Kevin - my new european love

4.Junnie - I fell in love with junliet during gpf and yes, reminds me of zu

5.Misha - when he is on he is on

Typically masculine - yes, rest of Rus field

From past skaters who posess finesse? Patrick, one programm to prove it: his sp from 2016/2017, kill me but I love that step sequence equally as Zu's LGC sequence from that season, for all the different reasons

 

If I recall correctly no satelite here brought one word to this gender disscussion:

androgynous

1: having the characteristics or nature of both male and female

2a: neither specifically feminine nor masculinethe

b: suitable to or for either sexandrogynous 

3: having traditional male and female roles obscured or reversedan

And that's what I think about Zu's performances

 

4 hours ago, Henni147 said:

 

Thank you! That's what I tried to put into words yesterday. Yuzu's skating doesn't look rehearsed or studied step by step. It's more like a mood and very natural. You can experience this best in his practice sessions. His spontaneous stroking, gliding and jumping to others' music looks better than most competitive skates. That's why he has full house and goosebump atmosphere during practice.

Even if he portraits someone specific like Seimei or skates a tribute to his idol, he's not a copycat. Yuzu is always Yuzu on and off the ice and that's why I love him so much.

Oh boy, I still think about that post of yours. It really touched me. Yes, Yuzuru is spontaneous. Like a force of nature, like wind. He is always him, he (especially in HL) lets us see his soul (funny how some people would still call him private)

I have one thing to add.

What is another(beside nature) universally loved thing? Music. people like different types of music, but it's hard to find a person who doesn't like music at all. And as we all know Yuzu embodies the  music. Every cell of his body simply follows every note, doesn't matter if it's chopin or prince. Music is like wind, it can't be seen but Yuzu, he can "show" me music, he makes music something phisical, that is universal beauty 

 

About the tweet:

I actually made this couple of hours ago(9 hours after publishing the tweet): (that's how much fans care about men's comparing to other disciplines)

Spoiler

2 hours ago, makebelieveup said:

I'm loving the comments in this tweet

and here is a super thought provoking question for yall

 

 

 

1 hour ago, rockstaryuzu said:

Even in his street clothes though, Johnny likes exaggerated proportions. As you say, it's a choice. 

 

You know, I find it interesting how Shoma always has a multitude of costumes but Yuzu sticks to the same two for the full season. Shoma's definitely a fashion kid. His choices aren't necessarily bold, but they're varied and interesting. 

I'm pretty sure that I read an interviev  where Shoma says that he always lets his mom choose his costumes, It somehow occured to me that he doesn't care much

[Lambari]

22 hours ago, makebelieveup said:

  Hide contents

 (...)

 

 

I agree with the scoring debate and excessive PCS scoring and GOE. I just made  a reminder that  we need to find a good medium in order to not dismiss the skaters themselves on the way.  Most of the discussion about scoring here is useful and If a fan feels so then by all means bring it to ISU.  In my opinion, Nathan is a worthy contender for Yuzuru. They aren't equal,  but Nathan isn't only a jumping bean either.  And I feel  that the accolade of Nathan's scoring that we are seeing now isn't an isolated phenomenon.   There were similar discussions of PCS increase during the Chan era.  With fans outraged that  Chan's "flat" Four Seasons could even receive 9s at interpretation when Lambiel's Poeta and Takahashi's whole being exists. However, these performances happened in different time periods, and especially different Olympic cycles, even though Takahashi and Chan overlapped a bit.  One could also arguee that pre-Chan era there really wasn't any men stacking up transitions at all,  and Yuzuru after brought this concept to a whole new level. But it still doesn't explain the newfound willingness now to give 9s in interpretation and performance.  I remember that some people also did have issues on Yuzuru receiving high marks at the time for his R&J 2.0 going into Sochi.   (look, I'm not saying the situations are equal but , these kind of debates have been going on forever, just change the name of the skater "underscored" and the one "overscored"  and you're set)  Several years ago judges could rarely ever give 9, 10,  in  Chan's and Yuzuru's era they were more willing to give,  now they continue to give it like candies.  Hence why Yuzuru couldn't reach these type of scores when he was 20, it was a different Olympic cycle.  The judging issue isn't a complete diregard and attack especifically for Yuzuru, it's just  a chronic issue within the sport, permanent across different scoring systems.  Each Olympic cycle judges try to make a new narrative with the new skater that stands out, Nathan was the one this time and we'll see how it goes until Beijing.  Hopefully, with Yuzuru's popularity and the legions of fans, the reaction could bring some positive changes, but for that to happen there needs to be respect for Yuzuru's competitors from the fans and that's why I made my post.  Thank you for the response!

 

From @Flutterby

Quote

 

How are younger skaters supposed to improve if the judging makes no sense? How do you know what aim for if the judges just make it up as they go along?

 

 

 

Spoiler

I agree completely with this concept.  I still believe that the ones who do want to improve will do it regardless in  some point of their careers. Hence why Evgenia even after 2 seasons of world records and a Oly silver completely left for a new coach looking for a new beginning.  Why Nathan improved his performance quality these past years and we'll see in which direction he'll go moving foward.   But these are outliers.  I think this issue runs much deeper on the junior circuit,  when you're much younger and impressionable  (see junior Ladies skating and their bogus GOEs).  

 

Quote

As to emotional connection to the music, I feel the same way about Boyang. he just wasn't connected to anything. And I really do like him. I feel like he's fallen by the way side because he hasn't found the proper vehicle yet. Its why I was so hopeful for him to move to TCC. I thought maybe they could help him with that. I thought if he found music he could truly relate to and new choreographers maybe he could return to form. But sadly that hasn't happened yet.

 

Spoiler

The thing with Boyang is that he could have easily exploited the youthful charisma that he has and kept on recreating the formula of his fan favourite Spider Man program (which I love to bits!) but  he wants to be taken more seriously artistically and I respect that.  Regardless if the direction he took is incorrect for him, I think this particular season he just had more serious issues emotionally to sort out.  The fault may not be completely on his programs and music. He did say that he had depressive thoughts earlier this season and could only regroup a bit at Worlds. His thoughts after Worlds makes me more relieved, hopefuly we'll see a more reinvigorated Boyang next year.  

 

[sallycinnamon]

Today it the second anniversary of Yuzuru's world record breaking Hope and Legacy free skate in Helsinki and his second gold medal at the World Championships. What a magical performance it was...

Hope and Legacy remains the most complex and difficult free skate ever which perfectly combined the highest technique with the most amazing artistry. No one can touch that 223.20 points which will forever remain the historical record for the free skate.   (and which score is probably the most underscored world record in the history of the new judging system Still can't get over that none of those perfect elements got +3 GOE....)

CBC version, ITA Eurosport, no commentary, best fancam

[EisElle]

5 hours ago, Henni147 said:

 

Thank you! That's what I tried to put into words yesterday. Yuzu's skating doesn't look rehearsed or studied step by step. It's more like a mood and very natural. You can experience this best in his practice sessions. His spontaneous stroking, gliding and jumping to others' music looks better than most competitive skates. That's why he has full house and goosebump atmosphere during practice.

Even if he portraits someone specific like Seimei or skates a tribute to his idol, he's not a copycat. Yuzu is always Yuzu on and off the ice and that's why I love him so much.

thanks to you! Your post about nature was so on point, it made me realize that's about what I feel watching Yuzuru

also, today after a long time I went for a looooong sunday morning walk and watched nature to my heart's content. I also listened to HYK. There weren't many flowers yet, and it hasn't rained for a while so grass...isnt' really lush&green and some trees are still bare, but I still soaked in the sun and fresh air and I pictured sakura fairy in my mind's eye
 

under spoiler, re: replies to scoring discourse from fanyus

Spoiler

 

2 hours ago, makebelieveup said:

lol here you go

 

 

that the poster talks about a fall IMO says a lot about 1)attention paid during comp 2) checking protocols and rewatching programs before speaking

 

A few days ago I had the (maybe unfortunate) idea of leaving a comment under on of Origin YT vids saying that I thought the score gap was wrong, and why I thought even with BV gap Yuzuru could have won the FS (numbers at hand and protocols open in another tab) and it evolved into some kind of tête-à-tête that highlighed that:

1) the person defending the scores didn't even know Yuzuru's layout

This makes me doubt she/he had really watched the performance he/she was commentating under...or that even knew what protocols are, and where to find them...

2) that poster justifyed scores using a prime example of tautology: scores are fair because they are fair. Or in alternative: because judges gave those scores, so their scores are fair. It must be nice to take scores for good I did the same the first time I watched FS. Easier times.

(tho tbh the most annoying thing was that all the time I was talking about score gaps and the poster insisted on: you have to accept Nathan won. Hello, I'm talking about the score gap, you know?)

 

In the end the whole exchange made me wonder: don't other people feel the desire to want to learn about the scoring, before engaging in scoring discourse? Check sources? Find data? Crunch some numbers? That's the very basics to me...how can you say something is fair if you don't even know the rules?

 

2 hours ago, Flutterby said:

Like I'm fine if someone loses because they popped a jump vs someone who didn't. I can understand the overall placement. I preferred Yuzu's skates but what happened, happened.

 

Its the finer points of the judging that are the issue. Like say any random skater does any random element. They receive a near perfect GOE. That specific element should look darn near textbook perfect to get that score. You should be able to take a clip of that element and show it to new skaters and say, "This is the epitome of this element. This is how this element should be performed."  That element should be able to earn the same score regardless of whether its a national or international competition. It should get the same score regardless of who else is in the competition. Or where we are in the skating season. Or how long a skater has been at senior level. There shouldn't be any finessing of the scores to give the "correct" or expected placements. The score for that element should be consistent no matter what. But it doesn't work that way in FS. And that's the real problem.

this is hardly the first time fans complain about scores...it's happened that this time a skater with a large fanbase was involved, and that the pcs scoring was even worse than it had been during the other comps, so more voices raised, but really, we have been talking about the absolute lack of standard the whole season, even when Yuzu was winning everything and setting records left and right...it's not really about Yuzuru not winning a gold medal...

tbh even before the season started we were already complaining... e.g. when ISU failed to show what they thought was a jump that didn't meet the bullets (core bullets included) and so on...or when they pulled out that overly complicated bicycle analogy...but ISU didn't ask fans what they had enjoyed the most of the their livestreamed congress & seminar (also, it was off season, less people involved in general)

 

and to end on a lighter note:

1 hour ago, makebelieveup said:

 

Please keep this hairstyle for next season 

Yuzuru has 3 choices

1) keep Origin. Let's talk about something SERIOUS: we've seen Origin costume only 4 times this season, that's a crime against fashion! We deserve more quality content! more pics! more vids! MOAR!

2) bringing LGC back...or upgrade from Prince to Queen

3) TANGO! or a Javi-tribute flamenco

[SuperMin]

I didnt realize how much I need this forum for my sanity!  Thank you PH.  Withdrawal over. 

[Yuzu_legend]

Ahora, SuperMin said:

I didnt realize how much I need this forum for my sanity!  Thank you PH.  Withdrawal over. 

I FEEL YOU!! So glad to have our Planet back!!!!!!

[Fay]

Thank goodness we’re back! 

 

[Paskud]

Planet is back!

[makebelieveup]

yay! Thank you for all the effort in bringing Planet back!

[Yuzu_legend]

hace 1 minuto , Fay said:

Thank goodness we’re back! 

 

Do you know what happened? Like, all sites with the provider were down or was it only us?