General Yuzuru Chat

[Toni]

9 hours ago, Xen said:

@Toni @wingman:

My own 2 cents on this, and it's long, a bit depressing, don't read it if you don't want to have bad feels for the day, so I'll keep it hidden. 

  Hide contents

1) Regarding what he said at CiONTU:

• I think it's enough for us, his fans to know that regardless of how much/intensity, was involved, at some point in his life and his skating career, he felt enough despair. I as a fan, personally, do not care for the amount of details, knowing is enough. Perhaps that was his intention-the message itself and the facts are very personal, and not something usually open to the public. It perhaps was meant for the closest of fans, the ones in attendance, the ones who follow him through and unconditionally support him. That such a group is aware is perhaps enough for him and all he is willing to reveal for now. Any further is up to him, at his pace, when he wants to show it that publicly-such details until then, are a purely private matter.
• East asia is realistically, very very much behind the times when it comes to mental health-the topic he raised is still viewed as a form of "mental weakness" of the individual. And for a society that values social coherence and harmony, being a crusader would be viewed as "fighting for attention" (in the negative sense). So long as east asia holds that mentality, I would not go on a campaign for the sake of "freedom of speech"-much as I personally support the idea of freedom of speech, anti-bullying, openness to discuss mental health etc, this is still a taboo topic in east asia for the sake of "harmonious society." If I were a PR firm, I'd advise against my clients on bringing up any of these issues while they still require some degree of popularity (while bullying is not encouraged, it's still a semi taboo topic). Furthermore, antis have used Yuzu's message against him already. A part of me is suspicious and wonder if Yuzu or even the team at Asahi saw this, so it was perhaps a deliberate attempt to stop the attacks so to speak. 

2) Regarding Antis:

• I'm sorry, there are some who already check even our forum. At some point, someone alerted me to the fact that an anti had already taken my translation of an interview with Zhao Hongbo (head coach of CSA) out of context by selective re-translation, and used it as anti-Yuzu fodder (dunno, guess to show even CSA agrees with anti view points). But what can we do other than point out that a) the original translation and video is not clearly anti; and b) notify people who don't know, that such a re-post is done with Anti-Yuzu context in mind?
• Antis are not Antis of Yuzu based on facts-for them being anti is an issue of belief or principle. It's a subjective viewpoint for many, that are not based in logic. Maybe some of the milder ones will at least go neutral over time. But the extreme ones? Probably not. There's quite a few studies done on extreme beliefs, confirmatory bias etc, and sadly, there is some objective fact that once something reaches a "belief" level, facts will have the opposite effect and simply reinforce existing bias (an "us vs them" mentality). 
• For now, I think the issue is "converting neutrals"-what I mean is allowing and helping neutral fans who do not have a confirmed bias, better understand FS, Yuzu and appreciate what he does. That is one area we can succeed. However, I would not go in the way of doing a loud campaign against TV Asahi, for reasons I'll get to next. It would fail pretty spectacularly in international relations/diplomacy when the US tries to brow-beat a neutral country (say Switzerland!) into supporting something that said country isn't into, and we see how that goes for US public relations image overseas. Our fandom in FS circles, is pretty much the equivalent of the US/China/Russia in international politics, so we need to handle our power with care when it comes to influencing fans lest we turn neutrals against us. 

3) Regarding Cyberbullying and dealing with antis:

• Here is the problem in us dealing with cyberbullying and even going too strong on some issues: in some cases, us Hanyu fans are viewed as cyberbullies. Part of the reason, is that the definition of "cyberbully" can be very fluid. Remember when ice network didn't have Yuzu's SP on its poll? Some Hanyu fans made sarcastic remarks and commented on it, and for some people in the FS community, that could be a form of "cyberbullying." That's where it matters that the sheer number of Hanyu fans (vocal ones even) carry the heft of US/China/Russia in international politics. It's considered by some more "neutral" people to be "rude." And "rude" may be enough to lead to ridicule against the Hanyu fandom, or at least not "like" Yuzu because of his "fans." Ridiculous? Illogical? Yeah, but since when did people always follow logic?
• From a personal perspective, I personally know people who in general do not like Hanyu fans for a myriad of reasons. As for how close-well, we are talking about the male half (and actually some of the female members) of my skating circles at home, that's some 20+ people I interact with fairly regularly. Whether justified or not, they tend to view Hanyu fans as a) into him for his looks; b) worship him as a god/saint/immortal; c) probably don't know anything about other skaters, don't watch other skaters because only have eyes for Hanyu; d) tend to not know jack about figure skating in general as a sport, only knows about Yuzu and that's it. This is in spite the fact they know I'm a Hanyu fan and probably negate all the above, and that they personally like Hanyu the most and would agree that other skaters are not at his level. Btw, they and even some of the Yuzu fans I know personally, don't actually view me as a Yuzu-fan (because I'm too...reasonable/polyamorous of other skaters)! Some of them even watched CiONTU (sadly some also ignored his talk due to lack of translation), but would also separate their like of him personally, and their dislike and ridicule of his extreme fandoms since they are separate critiques.
• Are the people mentioned above justified? Well, admittedly, our own fandom isn't completely clean. I've mentioned before that this forum is one of the more "sane" places devoted to him. I've walked into Baidu online fan bars for him, and ran out. There was for me at least, too much emphasis on his looks, too much fawning over him, and significant enough criticism leveled at Javi/Misha/Evgenia etc about how they are just using him as a tool for popularity online, and some genuine dislike of other skaters (Shoma, Nate etc) that was borderline anti. Even if this is a minority of the fandom, it does leave a lasting impression on people. And well, what can we do about it? Sadly not a lot in terms of control over fandom, and I doubt we want to cause a real split in the fandom over definition of "fan."

4) As for what we can do:

• Well I think some of the hashtags that have came up, such as "why I like Yuzuru" etc and even that "worst photography" contest is a good start. We can use the positive tags and pushes to drown out the negative ones. It also portrays us as a fandom, and Yuzu as a skater, as a normal, human being, not an inapproachable distant god-like entity (who could then be accused of arrogance since distance makes accusations easier). He and neutral fans can find these easily, and find some happiness and delight from it. 
• I think treating him as a human, respecting his privacy, other skaters' efforts etc is a step forward. Facts don't just work to help Yuzu, it can help figure skating as a whole. 
• Increasing knowledge of FS for new fans. This is why Max has my utmost respect, as does @kaerb and co's new podcast. We have strength in numbers, let's use it for good for promoting FS as a whole, which is something that I think Yuzu can get behind. 
• Facts, facts, facts that are skater neutral-while antis will deride it (as some went against Max's video), it persuades neutrals, and that is where the real battle is. Getting neutrals into appreciating FS as a whole, and Yuzu as a whole, is where the real battle is. 
• I also think @Toni that given Yuzu's hope that he can uplift the spirit of others, and inspire others, he would be quite fond of the children books that he inspires. Also, good luck with all the screenplays! Can't wait to see the movie adaptations!

 

Anyways, long post. Good luck with everything, and thank you for reporting (although how Twitter deals with it is not encouraging). I've always wondered if we should publicize who are antis so Yuzu fans who don't read Japanese, won't accidentally follow an anti? 

 

Yes, he said what he wanted to say, and only as much as he wanted to say. Yuzu didn't go into detail. His message was a broad and hopeful one and it should be heard. The reason he didn't dwell on  the details is they aren't necessary to make the point he was trying to make, and we should absolutely NOT suppress his voice, or condone censorship of the limited message he wanted to relay to us so badly he made certain it was broadcast live to the whole world. It mattered very much to him to get that out, and we should honor his wishes to spread that message. This is not about freedom of speech; it's about the need of victims to be heard - whatever it is they are prepared to share. I have been one of those victims and I can tell you quite certainly, it is a need. 

 

I am older and have lived through multiple fandoms. Believe me, they are all alike. They become tribal, and within every tribe there are factions. It's really absurd to me -- people are crazy -- and I don't know if your ideas would work, but they sound good to me. Yuzu is right about this.  The main thing is that we all exist out there as bastions of light, truth, and kindness. 

 

By the way, it makes me just as angry to see sleezeball attacks on Patrick Chan by Yuzu fans as it makes me to see sleezeball attacks against Yuzu. And that's not because I am an American; it's because every one of these skaters -- yes, that includes Dennis Ten and Han Yan -- deserves respect for all they have given up in their lives, torturing their bodies to bring us joy. There's a reason these competitors all hug each other, no matter who wins, and play games on the ice together to blow off steam. They are the only people in the world going through what they're gone through. They truly understand each other -- maybe we should all follow their example. 

 

I have to go off to recuperate now. I may be gone for some time. It was a pleasure to read your ideas. Have a great night.

[Maleko]

This looks pausible 

 

SOURCE

[kaeryth]

Oh hey... Shoma went to this earphone store as well!

 

[Victoria]

4 hours ago, SparkleSalad said:

Who likes bad puns?

 

 

 

Oh, R&J2 my true love 

[Bilge]

 

[Floria]

Hace 8 horas, xeyra said:

 

He actually reminds me a lot more of Shoma. 

Commentators compared him to Yuzu in terms of musicality. And Adelina said he reminded her of Takahashi. In  this show there is another boy worth to look at, Arseniy Fedotov. Both are from Tutberidze team.

Sorry for off topic 

[KatjaThera]

Under spoiler, because some people might be sick of this topic by now.

 

Spoiler

 

3 hours ago, Toni said:

 

Yes, he said what he wanted to say, and only as much as he wanted to say. Yuzu didn't go into detail. His message was a broad and hopeful one and it should be heard. The reason he didn't dwell on  the details is they aren't necessary to make the point he was trying to make, and we should absolutely NOT suppress his voice, or condone censorship of the limited message he wanted to relay to us so badly he made certain it was broadcast live to the whole world. It mattered very much to him to get that out, and we should honor his wishes to spread that message. This is not about freedom of speech; it's about the need of victims to be heard - whatever it is they are prepared to share. I have been one of those victims and I can tell you quite certainly, it is a need. 

 

I am older and have lived through multiple fandoms. Believe me, they are all alike. They become tribal, and within every tribe there are factions. It's really absurd to me -- people are crazy -- and I don't know if your ideas would work, but they sound good to me. Yuzu is right about this.  The main thing is that we all exist out there as bastions of light, truth, and kindness. 

 

By the way, it makes me just as angry to see sleezeball attacks on Patrick Chan by Yuzu fans as it makes me to see sleezeball attacks against Yuzu. And that's not because I am an American; it's because every one of these skaters -- yes, that includes Dennis Ten and Han Yan -- deserves respect for all they have given up in their lives, torturing their bodies to bring us joy. There's a reason these competitors all hug each other, no matter who wins, and play games on the ice together to blow off steam. They are the only people in the world going through what they're gone through. They truly understand each other -- maybe we should all follow their example. 

 

I have to go off to recuperate now. I may be gone for some time. It was a pleasure to read your ideas. Have a great night.

I honestly think you're presuming too much to know what Yuzu meant. Maybe he meant what you said, maybe he didn't. Maybe he wanted the thing broadcast over and over again, maybe he didn't. You're free to believe whichever option you want, but I think it's not very helpful not to consider various perspectives. Various people here said Yuzu has already been attacked over what he said. Do we really want him to keep being attacked just for the sake of some grand ideal of fighting cyber bullying? He said what he had to say. People who would be touched by it already were, whether they saw it live or heard from fans about it afterwards. People who wouldn't be, will never be, no matter how much he says it. It costs someone a lot to bare his soul like that and maybe once was enough for him. We also know he watches and reads stuff he is in. Maybe he didn't want to see himself as he said that. Also, just because it was re-broadcasted that same day, censored, I wouldn't automatically assume he had no say in it. I doubt TV Asahi would do it without at least letting him know.

 

And since we're so high on censorship, did anyone go after the fans who uploaded the NHK documentaries while censoring his NHK fall? But I guess that's ok because some fans are uncomfortable with seeing that. We'd probably end up censoring quite a bit of his career because we've got issues seeing him getting physically injured, but hearing him talk about emotional injuries is something we have to do over and over again and make it so he does it over and over again, out of some sense of righteousness we don't even know if he shares or not. Yes, he wants to talk about bashing and cyber bullying. That doesn't necessary mean he wants himself bearing his soul to be shown on TV over and over again. It's not essential to the topic and actually it's quite out of character for him, too. I don't see why some people find it so hard to understand that once might have been more than enough for him. That the so-called censorship MIGHT have been his choice. I don't know. You don't know. But if you overreact and it was his choice, it might backfire against him again.

 

Oh and as for the 'he did it on the day of the broadcasted so he must have meant this', I think that's also assuming too much. It probably had a lot more with it being the last day. The last day is usually the culmination of an event. It was only natural to have Plushenko as the guest on the last day. And since it was Plushenko, then that topic came along. You might notice his reaction to the Javi video was the most personal in the last day as well, he seemed more affected by it on the last day than the previous two (even though he said he felt like crying on the first one, he looked like he might cry on the last one). And he was clearly the most emotional at the end of the last day. I seriously doubt he intended to mention the 'controversial' part, but for some reason he did, probably on an impulse. That is what they 'censored', not the talk about bashing and bullying. Otherwise, they would have removed the Plushenko part, whether he dodged the question or not. (That actually being a perfect example of not wanting to talk about one's experience. Which, of course, he was free to do. I expect he might have talked to Yuzu about it privately, though.)

 

PS: In general, for all people who have ever been attacked or abused in any way, I prefer the term 'survivor' to the term 'victim'. It's far more empowering, even if it might seem exaggerated. Yuzu is a survivor in more ways that one. I assume you are, too, since you are here and trying to take a stand. And everyone else I know who has been abused in some way, is a survivor to me. But that's just me.

 

 

[SparkleSalad]

Mushrooms aren't supposed to give you diabeetus, damnit!

 

 

[yuzuonice]

14 hours ago, Old Cat Lady said:

as an aside, i've been binge-watching The Skating Lesson.  Anyone else think this show is absolutely terrible?  Some gems so far: Hanyu hates Uno, you need to "save room" in the marks for later in the season/other skaters, GOE should be based on bad/good/really good.  I honestly thought that this was just a fan reaction/gossip series until I started seeing the videos about GOE's and high profile skating community guests.  

mhm, I know which episode you mean, the one with news of Zhenya changing coaches, right? (I usually try to ignore them but I got curious too because I thought they might have some inside info - I was wrong -_-)

They're mean to everyone, if they don't find anything negative to say, they make something up (Like the "Hanyu hates Shoma" comment).

They made fun of Jason and Gracie's mental health and self image problems in that one too, so for me it was the last straw ugh, I'm not clicking on any of their videos anymore 

Which reminds me that I should go and check that fan podcast that @kaerb mentioned! 

[SparkleSalad]

Important hashtag

#これ見た人は選手が成長した画像貼れ

 

 

[dotsquare]

49 minutes ago, SparkleSalad said:

Important hashtag

#これ見た人は選手が成長した画像貼れ

 

 

 

OT but I'm still on the lookout for where that first pic of Yuzu and Nanami came from... Anyone who can help me out will be handsomely rewarded with a Pooh shower 

 

Also OT, but I've been trying to collate all the songs Yuzu has mentioned over the years. Here's what I have so far. I would massively appreciate any other additions as I've definitely missed some:

 

ONE OK ROCK: 完全感覚Dreamer [Kanzen Kankaku Dreamer], キミシダイ列車 [Kimi Shidai Ressha]  

Mrs Green Apple: StaRt

SEKAI NO OWARI: yume

back number: fish, スーパースターになったら [Superstar ni Nattara]

The Sketchbook: Colors, 覚醒 [Kakusei]

BUMP OF CHICKEN: Stage of the ground, super nova, zero

Hi-Fi CAMP: 夢の向こうへ [Yume no Mukou e], R, 

Pandalion: 夢に描くキセキ  [Yume ni Kaku Kiseki]

Mao Abe: 戦いは終わらない [Tatakai wa Owaranai]

[SparkleSalad]

 

 

[ralucutzagy]

1 hour ago, SparkleSalad said:

Important hashtag

#これ見た人は選手が成長した画像貼れ

 

 

 

[OonsieHui]

3 hours ago, KatjaThera said:

Under spoiler, because some people might be sick of this topic by now.

 

  Hide contents

 

I honestly think you're presuming too much to know what Yuzu meant. Maybe he meant what you said, maybe he didn't. Maybe he wanted the thing broadcast over and over again, maybe he didn't. You're free to believe whichever option you want, but I think it's not very helpful not to consider various perspectives. Various people here said Yuzu has already been attacked over what he said. Do we really want him to keep being attacked just for the sake of some grand ideal of fighting cyber bullying? He said what he had to say. People who would be touched by it already were, whether they saw it live or heard from fans about it afterwards. People who wouldn't be, will never be, no matter how much he says it. It costs someone a lot to bare his soul like that and maybe once was enough for him. We also know he watches and reads stuff he is in. Maybe he didn't want to see himself as he said that. Also, just because it was re-broadcasted that same day, censored, I wouldn't automatically assume he had no say in it. I doubt TV Asahi would do it without at least letting him know.

 

And since we're so high on censorship, did anyone go after the fans who uploaded the NHK documentaries while censoring his NHK fall? But I guess that's ok because some fans are uncomfortable with seeing that. We'd probably end up censoring quite a bit of his career because we've got issues seeing him getting physically injured, but hearing him talk about emotional injuries is something we have to do over and over again and make it so he does it over and over again, out of some sense of righteousness we don't even know if he shares or not. Yes, he wants to talk about bashing and cyber bullying. That doesn't necessary mean he wants himself bearing his soul to be shown on TV over and over again. It's not essential to the topic and actually it's quite out of character for him, too. I don't see why some people find it so hard to understand that once might have been more than enough for him. That the so-called censorship MIGHT have been his choice. I don't know. You don't know. But if you overreact and it was his choice, it might backfire against him again.

 

Oh and as for the 'he did it on the day of the broadcasted so he must have meant this', I think that's also assuming too much. It probably had a lot more with it being the last day. The last day is usually the culmination of an event. It was only natural to have Plushenko as the guest on the last day. And since it was Plushenko, then that topic came along. You might notice his reaction to the Javi video was the most personal in the last day as well, he seemed more affected by it on the last day than the previous two (even though he said he felt like crying on the first one, he looked like he might cry on the last one). And he was clearly the most emotional at the end of the last day. I seriously doubt he intended to mention the 'controversial' part, but for some reason he did, probably on an impulse. That is what they 'censored', not the talk about bashing and bullying. Otherwise, they would have removed the Plushenko part, whether he dodged the question or not. (That actually being a perfect example of not wanting to talk about one's experience. Which, of course, he was free to do. I expect he might have talked to Yuzu about it privately, though.)

 

PS: In general, for all people who have ever been attacked or abused in any way, I prefer the term 'survivor' to the term 'victim'. It's far more empowering, even if it might seem exaggerated. Yuzu is a survivor in more ways that one. I assume you are, too, since you are here and trying to take a stand. And everyone else I know who has been abused in some way, is a survivor to me. But that's just me.

 

 

 

Yes yes yes yes yes a million times yes!  

 

Some, I'm sure very well meaning and sincere, satellites I feel have a tendency to extrapolate a little too much what Yuzu's actions and words mean. We are not him. We do not speak for him. Yuzuru is a extremely smart young man with frighteningly good press sensibilities. If he wanted attention to be drawn to something he would make it happen. I personally don't think it's respectful, and in fact can be harmful, to presume and assume what Yuzu thinks and feels and wants. There is a reason why on this forum we try our best to stick to FACTS and only the facts. 

 

[kaeryth]

2 hours ago, dotsquare said:

 

OT but I'm still on the lookout for where that first pic of Yuzu and Nanami came from... Anyone who can help me out will be handsomely rewarded with a Pooh shower 

 

Also OT, but I've been trying to collate all the songs Yuzu has mentioned over the years. Here's what I have so far. I would massively appreciate any other additions as I've definitely missed some:

 

ONE OK ROCK: 完全感覚Dreamer [Kanzen Kankaku Dreamer], キミシダイ列車 [Kimi Shidai Ressha]  

Mrs Green Apple: StaRt

SEKAI NO OWARI: yume

back number: fish, スーパースターになったら [Superstar ni Nattara]

The Sketchbook: Colors, 覚醒 [Kakusei]

BUMP OF CHICKEN: Stage of the ground, super nova, zero

Hi-Fi CAMP: 夢の向こうへ [Yume no Mukou e], R, 

Pandalion: 夢に描くキセキ  [Yume ni Kaku Kiseki]

Mao Abe: 戦いは終わらない [Tatakai wa Owaranai]

 

Wada Kouji: Kaze, Butterfly

ONE OK ROCK: Be the Light

FUNKY MONKEY BABYS: Ato Hitotsu

 

Also, finally found the source of that pic. It's geoblocked (I had to have my vpn set in Hongkong) - at 3:38

Spoiler