General Yuzuru Chat

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

25 分, KatjaTheraさんが言いました:

About Javi, rather than saying he had not as high goals, I'd say he didn't really have goals. Both he himself and Brian have said he never thought he could be world champion. He did love winning and I guess, the more he learned from Brian and the better the results came, he probably did think the next step might not be unachievable - first GP podium maybe made the a win not look so impossible, first GP win maybe made more wins seem very possible, maybe even a GPF win and so on. But I wouldn't call those goals. Javi seems to have been more of a 'go along with it, do your best, and see what comes out of it.' That, combined with his generally laid-back attitude makes me wonder if he would have achieved the same success without Yuzu around. Because both coaches and Javi himself have said that seeing Yuzu work hard made him want to work hard, too. It could also be stuff like knowing he had days when he did better than Yuzu made him think he can beat him. Or having Yuzu come up to Toronto to learn from him, but finishing in front of him in their first competition together, might have also fired him up a bit. And so on. But overall, I do think it was that laid-back attitude that helped him - and their friendship - the most.

 

I think he definitely has them. He probably didn't have them as clear as later at the very beginning of his senior career. Perhaps back then it was more like what you said. But as he advanced, he definitely started forming a more concrete idea of what they might be. The actions he chose to take and the trajectory that his career took based on them tells me that he had a keen sense of what he wanted, or at least one that became keener the further he went along, even if it was never one that zeroed in on being at the very pinnacle of the sport. Fernandez didn't get to where he is today by simply winging it, even if his demeanor and laidback attitude may indicate otherwise sometimes.

 

But that question you raised about him having the same success without Hanyu being himself egging others on, well, if I have to be honest,  I do wonder about that too sometimes, because when you think about those two, your thoughts would inevitably lead towards there. But  we can only wonder because it's moot anyhow, seeing as how things have turned out in this case, are meant to turn out the way they did. Or that's what I choose to believe, anyway.

[EisElle]

1 minute ago, Murieleirum said:

Saint-Saens' original Swan is more of an international, belonging-to-no-one classical music staple. But Il Volo's version is a very specific version, skated by Yuzuru, so for me the reference is there and it would be pretty hard to deny. 

yeah, but while it could be an innocent fan-reference to Yuzu, like the girl skating to Seimei (or that wasn't innocent?) or the juniors dressing with H&L costume, it could also be that whoever chose the song really loved the lyrics and wanted to skate to them (hey, de gustibus...)...or maybe they thought it was still fresh take on The Swan, compared to the original version (you can't deny this particular version is still not warhorse...yet)

IMO it's also a different situation from e.g. Vincent's RJ last season, where the specific mix of tracks and music cut were so obviously similar to Yuzu's that one had to draw comparisons (and iirc he had said he liked that program too)

now, if e.g. Shoma had skated to Blues for Klook, knowing he's a huge Dai fan I'd definitely be ??? if Mihyoko had denied any reference, or if, idk, Stephen G. skated to PW... but it's about a junior lady, so imo it doesn't really matter where the inspiration comes from (of course it the girl likes Yuzuru's NS I'll say she has excellent taste). That's why I find ?????? that Misha felt compelled to absolutely deny any connection...even if there was a connection, it would have not mattered (it's not like he's also choreographed a Seimei, a LGC and a Ballade n1 all in the same season LOL)

to me it sounds as if

1) Misha was worried people were still hung up on that old discussion of him 'exploiting' Yuzuru (if so i'm sorry for him, but he really shouldn't)

2) he wanted to make a point (not clear against who, and in this case it sounds a bit petty)

3) idk

[Geo1]

2 hours ago, vanadiezz said:

 

TBF, he doesn't make it into Hanyu. He makes it into one-who-shall-not-be-named. I bet he means Lord Voldemort, but then the last time I read Harry Potter Lord Voldemort has a snake and not a swan.

 

Yuzu is now the elephant in the room.

[micaelis]

2 hours ago, LadyLou said:

Without Yuzuru in the picture, I do think Javi would have shone more, instead of being treated by certain media as 'the training mate of the one who shines'

Javi would have shone more if Yuzu hadn't been there?  I'm not sure.  It's quite likely he would have had great success over these last few seasons but the question might be asked if Javi would have shone as brightly had there been no Yuzu.  Proximity to Yuzu was in many respects advantageous for Javi.  Seeing Yuzu in their training classes gave Javi much greater access to the one who had to be beat than any other skater had.  Yuzu was the one who had to be overcome and he was skating right next to Javi.  Javi could see Yuzu's strategies given concrete reality as they trained.  I wonder if Javi would have been as successful if he hadn't had Yuzu as a concrete incentive through those years.  This is hardly to denigrate Javi, though.  He has made his own mark in his own way.  And he wants to continue to make that mark in the one area where his mark is extremely significant - the European Championships, where he is planning to compete for a seventh straight gold.  Only one other skater has won six or more consecutive European championships, Karl Schafer with his eight golds from 1929 - 1936, which is a very long time ago.  In essence Javi owns the European championships just as much as Yuzu owned the GPF before the injury.  The result is that Javi has now struck out on his own but it will be interesting if he is as good as he was when there was Yuzu next to him showing him exactly what he had to overcome to win.

[rockstaryuzu]

7 hours ago, LadyLou said:

Noooo Jack why that interview??? Why Boston?

 

For more ranting about scoring & some info&debate on rules you can give a look here

Ranting about scores is typical pastime of FS fans across fandoms and disciplines and ages, as well as ranting about ISU!  sadly it's part of the 'True fs experience'  I always tell myself to be zen about the scoring because getting angry has 0 consequences (other than making me bitter and tired) but..well... it doesn't work (aaaaah how DARED they not give a single full +3 to historic WR H&L?)

  Hide contents

personally I am among those who would like some stricter 'standard' in the rules & common practice of how rules are applied (that is often worse than rules themselves),  to make judges more accountable. But apparently many people in fs (and fs governing bodies) are allergic to standars and would justify almost everything in the name of subjectivity (even when it's plain incompetence or unethic behaviour. Sometimes it's mere lack of technical sources but it shouldn't be reason to forgive, it should be addressed and solved  imo)

 

I honestly think a big part of the issue is that there's resistance to the idea that an objective standard can be determined for the moves. After all, if you're a sports and arts person (which is basically the FS world), the idea that someone can come along and use measurement and science to quantify whether, say, a camel spin is good or bad, would be counter-intuitive, to say the least. But I call BS, and here's why: figure skating has always had objectively measure-able standards: what do you think school figures were? Skaters were scored on how perfect their circles were, as measured with a compass!!!. So I say you could easily develop a system of objective standards that have to be met before awarding each level of  GOE. And these days, you can use computer analysis of skater's movements to do it. For example, you can easily see the trajectory of a jump when it's captured frame-by-frame.

 

However, the question then becomes, how much machine precision is fair to use when scoring people in a competition?

[Hydroblade]

OT, i found out what happened to our raccoon insiders @ TCC

Spoiler

 

 

[mintchocolate]

Is European championships a very high Standard competition over past years? I think it cannot be compared with GPF 

[Danibellerika]

5 minutes ago, mintchocolate said:

Is European championships a very high Standard competition over past years? I think it cannot be compared with GPF 

4CC is even more challenging than Euros these days...That's why Javi feels he can sit out most of the season and then swoop in for one more Euros, cuz why not?

 

 

...Go Kolyada...

[Forcefield]

I think Javi certainly had goals - but not concrete ones. Like, he was okay with any medal or any podium spot. While for Yuzu, it had to be gold. That's the difference in their hunger. I thought that Javi aiming for any medal in Olys instead of straight up gold like Yuzu was very telling (of course there were reasons and expectations based on content, but that's another story). They work as rinkmates because of that though.

 

Also, ngl without Yuzu the floodgates for over 100 pts in SP, 200 pts in FS, and 300 pts total wouldn't have opened in my opinion. Every top skater last quad benefitted from Yuzu and should thank ISU for leveling the field once Yuzu did that.

[Moria Polonius]

Let me give my 10 cents on Misha Ge: Misha is making it sound like the program has absolutely nothing to do with Yuzu. But listening to the song, looking at the costume, it's obvious who Hongyi Chen was inspired by. Just like it was obvious who Yuzu was inspired by when he came out with Notte Stellata. 

[Sammie]

15 more days 

[Fay]

29 minutes ago, Sammie said:

15 more days 

Surely we’ll make to 4K before then! 

[TallyT]

7 hours ago, Sammie said:

I feel bad that he has to go through it but why can’t he do the Javi approach? Just ignore or block out the one or two negative post. He has a lot of more positive posts then negative. 

 

 

Again, it makes me (and I suspect Yuzuru) appreciate Javi all the more: sure, he's now had how many years? experience dealing with being touched by the Yuzu-publicity fire, but he has been able to handle it with way more tact, grace and patience than most elite athletes (who by their nature tend to be alphas) could muster up....

[EisElle]

5 minutes ago, micaelis said:

Javi would have shone more if Yuzu hadn't been there?  I'm not sure.  It's quite likely he would have had great success over these last few seasons but the question might be asked if Javi would have shone as brightly had there been no Yuzu.  Proximity to Yuzu was in many respects advantageous for Javi.  Seeing Yuzu in their training classes gave Javi much greater access to the one who had to be beat than any other skater had.  Yuzu was the one who had to be overcome and he was skating right next to Javi.  Javi could see Yuzu's strategies given concrete reality as they trained.  I wonder if Javi would have been as successful if he hadn't had Yuzu as a concrete incentive through those years. 

I agree with your point, that's why later I said that maybe they would have not reached those results without each other (but Yuzu would have likely found his path somehow, tho of course we can't know if that path would have lead to 2 OGM)

It was more of a speculation based on the perception of the skater's strenght compared to the rest of the field (linked to the titles achieved, of course, but also to how they were achieved).

 

By themselves, Javi's accomplishments are amazing: 2 Worlds + many podiums + his incredible string of Euro titles.

But if you consider Yuzuru's accomplishments... same number of WC, but in head to head competitions Yuzu won gold over Javi more often, and in general Javi was always the one trying to catch up (e.g. he changed his layout after GPF15 to close the gap)...

idk how much dominant Javi was considered between 2015 and 2016, I wasn't in the FS fandom back then, but while in Boston Javi cemented his status as top skater, that very season Yuzuru had been the one to break all the records and shake the whole FS world.

Despite his Boston and 4CC17 losses, Yuzuru was still the favourite going into WC17 (until the SP), so I'd say that, Euros aside, the general crowd and most media didn's see Javi as 'the one to beat' (the one with the highest scoring potential, the one that can lose only if he makes mistakes, the one whose silver medals are considered as losses).

then Yuzuru went to win Worlds17 with drama and WR in a very high-level competition, and that is the kind of things that sticks in people's memory and feeds the perception of greatness. And historically OGMs are what are valued the most and Yuzu got 2 of them (again, one with WR and the other with drama, the guy just can't do without) 

 

So in this sense, when people think about Javi's titles they are amazed, but when they think about Yuzuru's they are more amazed. It's not that Javi isn't a top skater, it's just that at the very top of this generation, in general perception, there was always someone else

that's what I mean with 'shine more': if Javi (with all his accomplishments), had had as a rival  a 'merely' 1 OGM+1Worlds champion or a 2xWorlds champion+OSM or something and if many people had been breaking each other's records (like between Vancouver and Sochi), it would have felt different, but Yuzu hoarded the major titles and all the WRs for himself 

I hope I've explained myself

 

 

43 minutes ago, mintchocolate said:

Is European championships a very high Standard competition over past years? I think it cannot be compared with GPF 

unnecessarily long opinion under spoiler

Spoiler

 

Historically, yes, it has the tradition and the prestige. Very few skaters would skip it (unless e.g. olympic year), while some skaters sometimes skip GP to focus on the second half of the season.

4CC is much more recent and feds' strategies to send 2nd tier skaters mirror this 'lack of prestige' of the title...plus the unfortunate thing of being closer to Worlds than Euros... plus that iirc in the last years the men who went to win 4CC have not conquered WC gold in the same year

GP series is quite recent too (tho much older than 4CC iirc), and it's the most important competition of 1st half of the season, but maybe it would be considered a little lower in 'prestige' than Euros...or so it used to be, when Euros had a very strong field (like when FS thrived in many countries and Russia had so many champions, up till when there where Plushy, Lambiel, Joubert who all had WC titles and even OWG medals). I think calling yourself 'European champion' still sounds better than being 'GPF winner' to most casual fans (who might not know what the heck GPF is, while Euros are easy to understand). Though I believe being a GPF winner counts more than winning 4CC right now, for those skaters from non-European countries...that's the unbalance due to 'tradition'

 

But if we look at the actual fields, Euros Men field is quite depleted of top skaters and it has been so for a few years already...basically since when getting >270(?) scores was required, I think....

Men GPF I'd say has been usually much tougher than Euros too, in the last years (of course we're speaking about top level here, the fight for podium and socres >270-280), because it usually has the very top skaters from NA, Asia and Europe...post Vancouver, there were Patrick and Daisuke and the other Japanese top skaters there, who obviously couln't compete at Euros

if you think about WC podiums in the last 8 years, I think aside from Javi there were few skaters form Europe...going by memory, I think Gachinski(?) in 2011, then 2012 was NA+Asia, 2013 NA+Asia(Denis) and Javi, 2014 Asia + Javi, 2015 same, 2016 same

2017 all Asia, finally 2018 was NA+Asia+Russia, so overall Javi and 2 Russians were all the medalists Europe had at the last 8 WCs...whoa I hadn't realized it was that bad

 

 

to keep the wall-text OT

12 minutes ago, Sammie said:

15 more days 

I'm not ready

[Whee1000]

Mother Nature is hitting Japan with a big stick the past couple days. 日本の Fanyu たち、気をつけて下さい！