General Yuzuru Chat

[Erin]

 

I'm with Yuzu and Machida.  

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

On 2018/8/22 at 午前1時55分, airiさんが言いました:

I think I'm the only one who doesn't mind waiting for ACI for programs reveal  I even think it will be cool if the first time we hear the music and see the actual program is ACI practice

 

For Yuzuru legend status, I'd say it's defnitely NHK 2015. I remember watching it on TV live and I really couldn't believe what I see (I mean Seimei, I couldn't watch the SP live). For me, that Seimei at NHK changed the figure skating really, and certainly my view on it. GPF later, too, but I remember that moment after NHK Seimei like it was yesterday.

 

You're really not. I actually think the longer he holds out the better it is for me cos I get to indulge in my imagination and fantasies of what he'll be skating to for that much longer. There'll be no more of that this season once he lets his programs drop so I'm actually hoping he'll wait until he can't any longer. I realize I'm in the minority but so far, it's been working in my favor so.

 

But with each day ACI draws closer, that's going to change soon and I won't get to keep doing it for much longer. So I'm gonna savor it each day he remains quiet.

 

10 時間前, Erinさんが言いました:

 

I'm with Yuzu and Machida.  

 

I just did all those yesterday...a lot of work and time wasted on a single bar of chocolate...guy who does maintenance said if I were to persist I would have to replace the vending machine. I told him one, that's not likely when the machine is most likely insured and if it's not, that's the management's problem because with a machine that shitty, they really should've accounted for ample abuse from disgruntled staff, and two, like hell I woulda stuck around if I punched a hole in it. But only after I thanked him for his help, of course.

[micaelis]

19 hours ago, airi said:

For Yuzuru legend status, I'd say it's defnitely NHK 2015. I remember watching it on TV live and I really couldn't believe what I see (I mean Seimei, I couldn't watch the SP live). For me, that Seimei at NHK changed the figure skating really, and certainly my view on it. GPF later, too, but I remember that moment after NHK Seimei like it was yesterday.

Before 2015 NHK Yuzu was viewed everywhere as the dominant men's skater, the one to beat.  That status was attained by him by through his 2013/14 season when he took the gold in the GPF, the Olympics and the world championships, the first to do so since back in the 2000s.  With the NHK those into skating began really thinking that Yuzu was a legend in the making. Two weeks later in the GPF nobody was thinking he was not a living legend simply because nobody else had done anything close to that (skating two super-clean competitions in a row and simply taking ownership of the record books).  There were probably some thinking GOAT by that point, also, but his subsequent failure to take the gold at 4CC and worlds kept those thoughts at bay.  GOAT opinions remained marginal until Helsinki in 2017 when the narrative of him overcoming adversity in moving from fifth to first by skating a world-record program once again brought his major competitive virtue to the front - his iron determination.  After Helsinki there were probably a fair number of non-Yuzu fans thinking he was the GOAT.  What spread the opinion more widely was the Olympic narrative this year - coming from a severe injury and major time off the ice and minimal time to prepare to the Olympic gold.  That was a narrative that would make for a great movie because it was one that spoke of determination on an heroic level.

 

When looking at where we are now I think most of us, if we look at things objectively, can say that Yuzu is still auditioning for the role of GOAT.  There are some previous holders of the title who have two things in their favor.  Particularly if we look at Dick Button we have to recognize that he was a much more consistent skater than Yuzu.  After a certain point early in his competitive career he simply stopped being lower than gold in every competition he entered.  There was a point when if Dick Button was competing the competition was for second.  Unfortunately Yuzu does not have that consistency.  The second is longevity.  Yuzu's period as the number one men's skater dates back only to 2013/14.  Even though technically he is rated now at number three those currently rated above him have asterisks by their names because the only reason they are there is because of Yuzu's lack of competition points from last season.  Those above him know that they still have to beat him if they plan to hold their current positions.  Yuzu retains his status as the one to beat that he's held since 2013/14.  If he continues to skate at the level he's skated the last several seasons and also wins gold at Beijing then he'll pretty much have GOAT in his pocket.  If, during these next few seasons, he also achieves being the first to land new jumps in competition, he'll also bolster his historical standing.  Everyone is looking at the 4A but there are other possibilities for new jumps out there.  The first quint, for example, the first quad/quad combination also.  A season in which his PCS scores are never under 4 from any judge in the SP or under 9 in the FS could also come into play.  Another thing that he could achieve would be to take ownership of the record book with the new scoring and never relinquish it until his retirement.  There are many ways that he could embellish his competition record that could embellish the narrative of his wins (many) and losses (few) the next few seasons.  The thing Yuzu has going for him more than any other skater out there is his completeness.  Others approach him there but none matches or exceeds him.  Amongst the commentariat Yuzu as THE complete skater is a position he has held now for several seasons.  Nobody out there can challenge him for that distinction.

[ruruzest]

Just stating a fact !

 

It makes me sad thinking about those early times when Yuzu could wander out in public hanging out with his friends . He looked like he was having fun ! Of course fame comes with a price but I’m still sad .

[robin]

57 minutes ago, micaelis said:

If he continues to skate at the level he's skated the last several seasons and also wins gold at Beijing then he'll pretty much have GOAT in his pocket.  If, during these next few seasons, he also achieves being the first to land new jumps in competition, he'll also bolster his historical standing.  Everyone is looking at the 4A but there are other possibilities for new jumps out there.  The first quint, for example, the first quad/quad combination also.  A season in which his PCS scores are never under 4 from any judge in the SP or under 9 in the FS could also come into play.  Another thing that he could achieve would be to take ownership of the record book with the new scoring and never relinquish it until his retirement.  There are many ways that he could embellish his competition record that could embellish the narrative of his wins (many) and losses (few) the next few seasons.  The thing Yuzu has going for him more than any other skater out there is his completeness.  Others approach him there but none matches or exceeds him.  Amongst the commentariat Yuzu as THE complete skater is a position he has held now for several seasons.  Nobody out there can challenge him for that distinction.

 

Who doesn’t consider Yuzu the GOAT now also won’t do it after the possible achievements you have listed. They’ll always find some excuse or another to evade doing it. He really doesn’t need to land quints, stick around until Beijing and win another OGM or even land the 4A to qualify for the title. He’s got two OGMs and all the WRs, how is that not enough? Isn’t it enough that he’s not retiring yet and setting his eyes on the 4A? 

[KatjaThera]

52 minutes ago, micaelis said:

Before 2015 NHK Yuzu was viewed everywhere as the dominant men's skater, the one to beat.  That status was attained by him by through his 2013/14 season when he took the gold in the GPF, the Olympics and the world championships, the first to do so since back in the 2000s.  With the NHK those into skating began really thinking that Yuzu was a legend in the making. Two weeks later in the GPF nobody was thinking he was not a living legend simply because nobody else had done anything close to that (skating two super-clean competitions in a row and simply taking ownership of the record books).  There were probably some thinking GOAT by that point, also, but his subsequent failure to take the gold at 4CC and worlds kept those thoughts at bay.  GOAT opinions remained marginal until Helsinki in 2017 when the narrative of him overcoming adversity in moving from fifth to first by skating a world-record program once again brought his major competitive virtue to the front - his iron determination.  After Helsinki there were probably a fair number of non-Yuzu fans thinking he was the GOAT.  What spread the opinion more widely was the Olympic narrative this year - coming from a severe injury and major time off the ice and minimal time to prepare to the Olympic gold.  That was a narrative that would make for a great movie because it was one that spoke of determination on an heroic level.

 

When looking at where we are now I think most of us, if we look at things objectively, can say that Yuzu is still auditioning for the role of GOAT.  There are some previous holders of the title who have two things in their favor.  Particularly if we look at Dick Button we have to recognize that he was a much more consistent skater than Yuzu.  After a certain point early in his competitive career he simply stopped being lower than gold in every competition he entered.  There was a point when if Dick Button was competing the competition was for second.  Unfortunately Yuzu does not have that consistency.  The second is longevity.  Yuzu's period as the number one men's skater dates back only to 2013/14.  Even though technically he is rated now at number three those currently rated above him have asterisks by their names because the only reason they are there is because of Yuzu's lack of competition points from last season.  Those above him know that they still have to beat him if they plan to hold their current positions.  Yuzu retains his status as the one to beat that he's held since 2013/14.  If he continues to skate at the level he's skated the last several seasons and also wins gold at Beijing then he'll pretty much have GOAT in his pocket.  If, during these next few seasons, he also achieves being the first to land new jumps in competition, he'll also bolster his historical standing.  Everyone is looking at the 4A but there are other possibilities for new jumps out there.  The first quint, for example, the first quad/quad combination also.  A season in which his PCS scores are never under 4 from any judge in the SP or under 9 in the FS could also come into play.  Another thing that he could achieve would be to take ownership of the record book with the new scoring and never relinquish it until his retirement.  There are many ways that he could embellish his competition record that could embellish the narrative of his wins (many) and losses (few) the next few seasons.  The thing Yuzu has going for him more than any other skater out there is his completeness.  Others approach him there but none matches or exceeds him.  Amongst the commentariat Yuzu as THE complete skater is a position he has held now for several seasons.  Nobody out there can challenge him for that distinction.

I think Yuzu could win 5 Olympic Titles and some would still not consider him the GOAT, simply because of personal bias or because different people have different definitions for GOAT.

 

Like you said about Dick Button, some say he was very dominant and consistent. I admit I never saw him skate, so I'd like to ask: did he have rivals close to his level? Because Yuzu was never alone at the top. First there was Patrick mostly, though others close by as well - Javi, Tatsuki, Daisuke, Denis on his great days - then there was Javi, then there was the coming of the youngsters. Did Dick Button win his second gold medal against 4 rivals who were in better physical condition and 3 who also had a theoretical technical advantage? But even without that, against 4 rivals, 3 of which had just as high chances of gold (sadly, Boyang is constantly underscored, so his chances were smaller from the start)

 

I believe winning the way Yuzu has been doing for 4 years now, against strong rivals, and constantly improving and challenging himself - it's easier to be consistent if you don't take risks; not saying this was Dick's case, because I have no idea - is far more impressive than being dominant over a field of skaters not really at the same level (or close it). Especially if one also takes into account the fact that out of these 4 seasons, there was only one in which he wasn't injured or otherwise had big health issues.

 

On top of that, given the sheer level of technical skills required to win now and everything skaters have to do on ice now, I believe there can be no comparison to before. There were skaters who were pioneers in their time and who set standards in their time and who perhaps dominated in their time or who battled strong rivals in their time (thinking Plushenko and Yagudin) and maybe who, if they were part of this generation, would be as good as or better than Yuzu, but simply given that FS is at a much higher level of difficulty than before, to me, any achievement now trumps achievements in the past. So IMO, saying Dick Button or anyone else in the best is the GOAT, despite his achievements not really being very different from Yuzu's - 2 Olympic Gold Medals, because they're apparently the most important - is simply a reluctance to award the title to Yuzu, maybe out of respect and admiration for Button, or maybe because people generally have trouble awarding superlative titles to contemporaries. I'm not sure how many of those considered 'best of the best' in different domains - music, literature, math, science etc. - were considered that by their contemporaries as well. Many people only award titles like that in hindsight.

 

Also, Yuzu already is the first person to land a ratified 4Lo. So it's not like he doesn't any firsts in that sense to his name. (Also every time he's tried a quad in competition for the first time, he's landed it and with positive GOE, I think. I don't think there is a statistic like this for other skaters, but it'd be interesting to see if there are many who have this.)

 

Anyway, overall, for me, I find the fact that Yuzu can develop gradually over the season and isn't perfect out of the box, as well as the fact that he wins or has great results, despite mistakes or despite not having as high a technical content as always, far more impressive and inspiring than if he were picture perfect, day in, day out. I'm not sure even he'd like that.

[Lunna]

10 минут назад, robin сказал:

 

Who doesn’t consider Yuzu the GOAT now also won’t do it after the possible achievements you have listed. They’ll always find some excuse or another to evade doing it. He really doesn’t need to land quints, stick around till Beining and win another OGM or even land the 4A to qualify for the title. He’s got two OGMs and all the WRs, how is that not enough? I really don’t mind eating my words later but those are some unrealistic expectations.... Isn’t it enough that he’s not retiring yet and setting his eyes on the 4A? 

I agree. And actually it doesn't bother me that smb. doesn't consider Yuzu the GOAT, my mother is a great example She thinks Plushenko was great cuz he was very stable (not like boys now ), also she thinks that Boyang and Chen are cool cuz of a lot of quads and that it is really hard (and she was doing skating herself in school so she's not just a causal viewer). Of course she agrees that Yuzu is very good skater and skates beautifully, but I don't think she considers him the best ever and I'm OK with it, to each their own I think  FS still is a subjective sport after all.

[robin]

4 minutes ago, Lunna said:

I agree. And actually it doesn't bother me that smb. doesn't consider Yuzu the GOAT, my mother is a great example She thinks Plushenko was great cuz he was very stable (not like boys now ), also she thinks that Boyang and Chen are cool cuz of a lot of quads and that it is really hard (and she was doing skating herself in school so she's not just a causal viewer). Of course she agrees that Yuzu is very good skater and skates beautifully, but I don't think she considers him the best ever and I'm OK with it, to each their own I think  FS still is a subjective sport after all.

 

LOL well that’s one side of the spectrum of people who wouldn’t call Yuzu the goat but then there’s the more informed and authorative side of the spectrum that doesn’t want to acknowledge Yuzu’s achievements out of personal/national interest. I don’t think we should give either side much attention. imo Yuzu’s goat status is undebatable and you’re welcome to call me a biased Yuzu fan 

[monchan]

The GOAT title itself is SUBJECTIVE. There's NO OBJECTIVE GOAT title at all, really. Cuz no one would EVER agree on a common ground to evaluate a GOAT.

 

If you are not satisfied w what Yuzu have done and think he isn't qualified for your lofty standard of GOAT yet, it is YOUR fault, not Yuzu's.

 

Idk why some Fanyus like to make things so hard for yourself by creating your own unrealistic standard, and at the same time feel contradicted/dissatisfied cuz Yuzu doesn't live up to it 

 

[Sombreuil]

I don’t really care about the GOAT stuff- but - I’m tired of comparisons with Dick Button which laud his consistency and supremacy.  Immediately post war the best young (because not enlisted/ exhausted) North American ( because they had intact rinks to practice/ compete on) man was bound to win everything in sight for at least 6/10 years because it takes a long time for populations and infrastructure to recover, and expensive sports facilities were bottom of the list of priorities.  He had no real rivals unlike Curry/Cranston,  Boitano/Orser,  Pluschenko/ Yagudin,  Hanyu/ Chan/ Fernández.

[Neenah]

Yuzuru has already put his name in the history books whether "some" people would acknowledge it or not  

 

Can he add more to his legacy? sure he can. If healthy and motivated, Yuzu is a force to reckon with  (not healthy as well, but I don't like to contemplate that)

Does he have to do more? Not at all. He has nothing to prove to anyone (but I want more because I am a selfish fan and I am sure he wants more because he is Yuzu )

[ralucutzagy]

 

[Hydroblade]

I propose we throw these on the ice

[Nutmeg]

45 minutes ago, Sombreuil said:

I don’t really care about the GOAT stuff- but - I’m tired of comparisons with Dick Button which laud his consistency and supremacy.  Immediately post war the best young (because not enlisted/ exhausted) North American ( because they had intact rinks to practice/ compete on) man was bound to win everything in sight for at least 6/10 years because it takes a long time for populations and infrastructure to recover, and expensive sports facilities were bottom of the list of priorities.  He had no real rivals unlike Curry/Cranston,  Boitano/Orser,  Pluschenko/ Yagudin,  Hanyu/ Chan/ Fernández.

This is a very good point. In any GOAT debate, also when discussing the achievements of any person as such, we shouldn't overlook the context. Not to downplay anyone's achievements but because it is of big importance. 

[KatjaThera]

7 minutes ago, Hydroblade said:

I propose we throw these on the ice

I knew they were goat plushies even before I clicked! lol I'd actually like that... imagine the baffled media trying to figure this out