The 2014 Patrick Chan and Yuzu Situation

[WinForPooh]

On 3/23/2018 at 4:10 AM, Fresca said:

 

Yes, it does! I try to give it as much love as possible like here! It's so misunderstood!!!

 

 

@WinForPooh in the video I link to above in this post, I think you can see the choreography at the end even better. What could have been indeed...

I think I might be aboard the R+J2 appreciation train, because that stsq and choreo when done well are wonderful. Full of nuances that were completely lost on me because I only watched the competition videos. He really didn't have the stamina back then. He has such wonderful musicality. That programme is also improved by being done in his training gear.

[SparkleSalad]

Super OT but 2013 Nationals has the most magnificient shot of his ina bauer.

 

 

I like some elements of the program in isolation but the music is just so dull and dragging, much like the seemingly endless NDP, that I can't enjoy it as a whole. 

[micaelis]

On 3/19/2018 at 2:16 PM, LadyLou said:

Nathan  (or his team) tried to channel the image of Yuzuru (program with modern vibe, upcoming prodigy, winner of gpf just like the last teenager OGM). Many expected to see history repeat (conveniently, they remembered only the most recent piece of history, forgetting that for a long while before Yuzuru the OGMs were all in their 20s) just because Nathan is young and promising and he has the potential (tho Yuzuru came into Sochi with more than potential and he was never touted as the biggest favourite for gold...and all the latest male OGMs had all been older, it was hard to bet on a mere teenager) but what happened proved that in Sochi the young prodigy won because he was Yuzuru Hanyu, not because of BV or age. People will have to wait at least for Beijing if they want to see another young gun win, and tbh right now it looks like the current crop of "young guns" won't make things easy for the next big thing (and tbh at the moment I can't still see the next big thing among current juniors)

I can - Stephen Gogolev.  He's got the jumps but he needs to work very very hard on his general skating skills, that 's why I hope Brian has Stephen and Yuzu training together as much as is possible and practical.  Stephen, who I'm sure has had multiple opportunities to see Yuzu in training, would now be seeing himself in direct comparison with Yuzu, and with Yuzu saying now that he wants to build his programs so as to bring out the aesthetic qualities as much as possible and forget trying to win (he probably still will anyways), Yuzu's example will be just about ideal to bring Stephen around.  Realizing, of course, that Stephen is a growing boy and will encounter problems because of that (remember Nam way back when), I think that will give Brian the rationale to put the emphasis in Stephen's training on basic skating skills, step sequences, choreographic sequences, spins, all the stuff that doesn't involve taking to the air. 

 

Stephen's major disadvantage seems to be a lack of musical sensitivity, quite the opposite of Yuzu's ability to lose himself in the music, although this could be poor choice of music in Stephen's case (Mozart is not a composer who lends himself well to skating music, IMO).  I think Stephen needs music that is more over the top, the sort of music that Yuzu's had repeatedly (RJ1, PW, POTO, LGC).  The thing is that Yuzu, according to what he said in a recent interview, seems right now to be winding down the competitive aspect of his skating and seems to be setting his sights on programs that are programs for the ages, the kind of programs that people ages from now will still be watching with awe. 

 

Yuzu, we can imagine, is not at all intimidated by Stephen, as Stephen won't be coming onto the senior scene until the 2020/2021 season, a time when Yuzu will probably have a fully working 4A in his arsenal and also have perfected his moves into and out of that, gaining a scoring advantage comparable to that he enjoys with the 3A nowadays.  The person who should be terrified of Stephen is Nathan Chen, since Stephen at age 13 has all the jumps others are doing in his arsenal and if in these next couple years Brian's been working him hard on skating skills, using Yuzu as the prime example of how it's complete skating that usually wins the battles, Stephen will be a formidable competitor, although never in Yuzu's league (nobody is right now and even looking into the near-future).

 

Stephen, then, who begins competition on the junior level, is blessed by having such proximity to a skater who increasingly is being touted as the Greatest of All Time.  He has much growing to do, both physically and in terms of overall skating skills.  Yuzu will be marvelous fertilizer.  I think it possible that a relationship will develop which will have analogies with the Javi/Yuzu relationship, but only analogous, since there is the significant age difference, but for the two of them it's not as if they're strangers to each other.  They both began their training with Brian about the same time.  The problem with Stephen may be the development of a damaging hubris (ie, Patrick Chan), but Yuzu there is also an example, since Yuzu is in many respects an ideal example of the virtue of humility.  I say that because in Canada Stephen's rapidly becoming the BMOC.  After all, in competitions strictly within Canada, he's skating on the senior level and ending quite high in the standings, which could generate a damaging overconfidence.  It will be interesting to see how he does in Junior competition this coming season, since there are probably very few junior level skaters (if any) with such an array of quads to choose from when competing.

[freyaminnie]

On 22/03/2018 at 8:12 AM, Fresca said:

 

Yes it's unfair to compare Yuzu in 2014 to Nathan in 2018. Yuzu chose to chase Patrick by chasing Patrick's skating skills and upping his PCS. He chose to work on where he was weak and Patrick was stronger to challenge Patrick at what he did best rather than focusing on jumps where he had the competitive advantage. That takes guts and a lot of ambition. Nathan went the completely opposite direction. He chose to focus more on his tech where he was strong already rather than chasing after Yuzu's greatest strength- his completeness.

 

On RnJ 2, to compare it to Nathan empty quad-filled 2018 FS does it a disservice. I hope Yulena ends up doing her analysis of RnJ 2 because like you said, it is so underappreciated. As in dance, when watching an FS program, I try not only to evaluate the total package but also to separate the choreography (the "intention" of the program if you will) from the execution of it.

 

While RnJ 1 was Romeo the fighter, RnJ 2 was Romeo the lover. RnJ1 had a wildness and aggression that showed Romeo as the brash youth struggling against his circumstances - him against the world fighting for doomed love. In contrast, the RnJ 2 choreography was softer, sweeter, more elegant. DW borrowed heavily from the grand sweeping gestures of mime in ballet love stories in order to establish Yuzu as the romantic hero first portraying the lightness of being in love and towards the end, realizing the pain it can also bring. DW put together a program with complex footwork, balletic gestures, flowing circular movement, a variety of interesting positions that made use of Yuzu's extension, use of levels for drama, and the necessary FS elements and was able to combine them in such a way that was musical and told the story. It's just too bad Yuzu didn't have the stamina to perform it well and had a costume I hated for this program.

 

If you watch Yuzu's RnJ2 practices where he is wearing UA and he doesn't get tired because he skips parts, you can see how beautiful the choreography is. To give you a specific example, look how DW contrasts the euphoria vs the pain of love by using 2 sections with similar musical phrasing (3:10-3:21 and 4:10-4:21) and a very distinct movement where he bends forward with both arms outstretched buried in a circular choreographic sequence where one is the "light" version (3:17) and one is the "heavy" version (4:20).

 

 

 

OK so this thread not only gives me new idea about Patrick that I can't help feel a little bit of love and sympathy for him. It makes me give LOVE to the R+J 2.0 program and a LOT of respect to David Wilson for his choreographing as well. The step sequence for this piece would have been GORGEOUS had Yuzu has enough stamina to do them back then. I can now see why the Notte Stallata came out this emotional for us because now Yuzu can catch up with all the details in David's choreograph and bring them out to the fullest. 

 

I hope maybe one day we can have redemption for the R+J 2.0 and see them for what they were suppose to be, maybe in Ice show or some distance future once Yuzu retired and decide he want to skate them again *finger crossed*. Maybe without the Boobskirt (TM) this time LOL. 

[TallyT]

I just have a soft spot for R&J2 (and yes, even the costume) as the fannish underdog, which is ironic given he pretty much took a triple crown with (and in) it...

[yuzuangel]

On 3/21/2018 at 6:12 PM, Fresca said:

 

Yes it's unfair to compare Yuzu in 2014 to Nathan in 2018. Yuzu chose to chase Patrick by chasing Patrick's skating skills and upping his PCS. He chose to work on where he was weak and Patrick was stronger to challenge Patrick at what he did best rather than focusing on jumps where he had the competitive advantage. That takes guts and a lot of ambition. Nathan went the completely opposite direction. He chose to focus more on his tech where he was strong already rather than chasing after Yuzu's greatest strength- his completeness.

 

On RnJ 2, to compare it to Nathan empty quad-filled 2018 FS does it a disservice. I hope Yulena ends up doing her analysis of RnJ 2 because like you said, it is so underappreciated. As in dance, when watching an FS program, I try not only to evaluate the total package but also to separate the choreography (the "intention" of the program if you will) from the execution of it.

 

While RnJ 1 was Romeo the fighter, RnJ 2 was Romeo the lover. RnJ1 had a wildness and aggression that showed Romeo as the brash youth struggling against his circumstances - him against the world fighting for doomed love. In contrast, the RnJ 2 choreography was softer, sweeter, more elegant. DW borrowed heavily from the grand sweeping gestures of mime in ballet love stories in order to establish Yuzu as the romantic hero first portraying the lightness of being in love and towards the end, realizing the pain it can also bring. DW put together a program with complex footwork, balletic gestures, flowing circular movement, a variety of interesting positions that made use of Yuzu's extension, use of levels for drama, and the necessary FS elements and was able to combine them in such a way that was musical and told the story. It's just too bad Yuzu didn't have the stamina to perform it well and had a costume I hated for this program.

 

If you watch Yuzu's RnJ2 practices where he is wearing UA and he doesn't get tired because he skips parts, you can see how beautiful the choreography is. To give you a specific example, look how DW contrasts the euphoria vs the pain of love by using 2 sections with similar musical phrasing (3:10-3:21 and 4:10-4:21) and a very distinct movement where he bends forward with both arms outstretched buried in a circular choreographic sequence where one is the "light" version (3:17) and one is the "heavy" version (4:20).

 

 

Wow just gorgeous! I love this version of R+J2.0. Has a hint of the rawness and emotions of R+J1.0 which I've always loved.

[Sombreuil]

I am home nursing a stomach bug and watching old documentaries to amuse myself and take my mind off the cramps.  I've just watched the pre Sochi ones - I've never been a fan of Patrick's - I find his skating a bit soporific if I'm honest, it's lovely skating, but it lulls you off to sleep quite fast. However, I've sort of warmed a bit to him as the underdog uncle the last few seasons - I had forgotten how badly he came across in pcs and interviews as reigning 3x world champion.  Ungracious in victory and defeat - I remember now why I disliked him when he was a bumptious 22 year old and it wasn't the skating it was the arrogance.

 

Since there doesn't seem to be a thread for R&J2 I'd also like to comment on what a pity it was that Yuzuru didn't have the stamina for it at that stage in his career.  I like the UA version that @Fresca highlighted above , and as the clips showed bits of other competitions where he landed both quads, between the two you can see what DW was aiming for.  Also I am an unrepentant fan of the costume - haven't looked at it for a while, but it was sooo pretty especially the detail on the waist and sleeves.

[Danibellerika]

On 3/27/2018 at 9:50 AM, SparkleSalad said:

Super OT but 2013 Nationals has the most magnificient shot of his ina bauer.

 

 

I like some elements of the program in isolation but the music is just so dull and dragging, much like the seemingly endless NDP, that I can't enjoy it as a whole. 

 

That's nice but holy interlacing batman.  Note to self: interlacing makes figure skaters look like a ghost. 

[rockstaryuzu]

Read through this thread and I have a couple comments to add:

 

First, anyone who read the interviews Patrick gave at the start of this season probably realized very quickly, same as I did, that Patrick didn't have his mental game together. And if you look back at his career, the same pattern appears over and over again. IMO, the blame for this can and should be laid at the feet of his coach. It's a coach's job to train the mental aspects of competition as well as the physical. And the proof is in the pudding - the second Patrick left Zoueva and moved to Wallia,  he perked up and frankly I think it's the only reason Patrick was able to have a reasonably decent Olympics at all.

 

Having realized that, it puts Patrick's career into a different perspective for me: that of a very talented guy who needed a firm hand to guide him to greatness - and didn't ever get one. It explains why he's a bit oblivious and always has his foot in his mouth, it explains his insecurity and arrogance, it explains his failure to improve his technical skills even when it was obvious he needed to. So although I've always half-disliked him because of his foot-in-mouth disease, l have sympathy for him because he just never learned.

 

Secondly, now that I've had a chance to see him skate live (at SOI), I get why his scores were so high and all the rest: he's a completely different skater than the impression you get from TV. His presence on the ice is very much larger than life - TV makes him seem small but he has a tremendous spirit that fills the whole arena. And seen IRL, those 'skating skills' he always talks about are impressive, delicate and beautiful, like he's weaving lace on the ice. After seeing that, I totally get why judges scored him so high.

 

Thirdly, having seen that, I get why Yuzu has mentioned him as an inspiration for his skating.

 

And finally, I second the motion on seeing them both on the same ice again soon. 

 

 

[yuzuangel]

14 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

Having realized that, it puts Patrick's career into a different perspective for me: that of a very talented guy who needed a firm hand to guide him to greatness - and didn't ever get one. It explains why he's a bit oblivious and always has his foot in his mouth, it explains his insecurity and arrogance, it explains his failure to improve his technical skills even when it was obvious he needed to. So although I've always half-disliked him because of his foot-in-mouth disease, l have sympathy for him because he just never learned.

TBF for someone in their early to mid 20s, at someone point you gotta start taking responsibility for the people you surround yourself with. Patrick chose his coaches, maybe because of their allowing him to be this way rather than in spite of it. And he always had some questionable choices for coaches -- a dance instructor, Kathy Johnson, Marina Zueva, who coaches ice dance...

 

Kind of explains why Yuzu and his team were certain that it was possible to beat Patrick even though the commentators all said "we thought he was unbeatable." In contrast, no one really expected to beat Medvedeva / Zagitova at the Olympics, they all clearly knew they were fighting for bronze.

[rockstaryuzu]

5 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

TBF for someone in their early to mid 20s, at someone point you gotta start taking responsibility for the people you surround yourself with. Patrick chose his coaches, maybe because of their allowing him to be this way rather than in spite of it. And he always had some questionable choices for coaches -- a dance instructor, Kathy Johnson, Marina Zueva, who coaches ice dance...

 

Kind of explains why Yuzu and his team were certain that it was possible to beat Patrick even though the commentators all said "we thought he was unbeatable." In contrast, no one really expected to beat Medvedeva / Zagitova at the Olympics, they all clearly knew they were fighting for bronze.

Tbh, it just makes me wonder what might have been if Patrick had switched coaches earlier and had gotten over his mental/ego hurdles sooner, and applied himself to either solidifying his 3A, or else adding another quad. He skated his Olympic FP at SOI, and although he reduced the number of jumps because it was a show and not a competition, it was clear to see that the program itself actually was worthy of the top men at the Olympics. Had Patrick skated clean, who knows what might have happened in PC.

 

And given the way the rest of the team rallied around him to get the team gold, it seems like a good bet that he's a much nicer person than his interviews make him out to be.

 

To my mind, I don't think Yuzu took Patrick any less seriously in PC than he did any of his other competitors. And that's part of why Yuzu has remained on top for so long.

 

 

 

 

[TallyT]

On 6/6/2018 at 12:09 AM, Sombreuil said:

However, I've sort of warmed a bit to him as the underdog uncle the last few seasons - I had forgotten how badly he came across in pcs and interviews as reigning 3x world champion.  Ungracious in victory and defeat - I remember now why I disliked him when he was a bumptious 22 year old and it wasn't the skating it was the arrogance.

@Fresca

 

I find Patrick simply unlikable, but I have had to feel sorry for him ever since seeing a clip of the flower ceremony at Sochi - he was clearly shattered and humiliated, trying so hard - and failing - to cover it up. Okay, he probably should not have publicly built himself up so much as the destined winner, but still, seeing someone so gutted, you can't help feel a little for him (even if I'm still glad Yuzuru won). His eyes show the depth of what he is going through, even when he fakes a smile.

 

It couldn't have been easy, not only to have this tiny rocket shoot up out of nowhere and take his top spot (and then go on to win Worlds) but also because Yuzuru was so young and adorable, watch him grab stardom and fans as did did so.

 

On the other hand, he was ungracious - both at Worlds 2012 and Sochi 2014 medal ceremonies someone in the comments pointed out how he fairly pointedly didn't applaud for Yuzuru at least (not sure if he did for the other person on the podium, but then in both cases, the uploader and viewers were really more focused on baby Yuzu). Contrast that to Yuzu's attitude even when he loses, and most of the other current top men... they're all good sports win or lose.

 

 

[TallyT]

46 minutes ago, TallyT said:

repeated post, sorry

 

[sweetwater]

2 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

Secondly, now that I've had a chance to see him skate live (at SOI), I get why his scores were so high and all the rest: he's a completely different skater than the impression you get from TV. His presence on the ice is very much larger than life - TV makes him seem small but he has a tremendous spirit that fills the whole arena. And seen IRL, those 'skating skills' he always talks about are impressive, delicate and beautiful, like he's weaving lace on the ice. After seeing that, I totally get why judges scored him so high.

I had a bit similar experience about Patrick too. I saw an ice show for the first time in 2012 in which all the men's medalists in Nice participated. After I saw Patrick's performance I kind of got why his score was so high, but in my case, it wasn't his charisma, but the way he skated.

This was probably the program he skated in the show. It didn't have many difficult jumps but the footwork looked so busy and intricated. He was on deep edges all through the program. To me, he looked almost like a crescent flipping across the ice with tremendous speed. No one else was skating like that. I didn't fell in love his program but I realized that there were things I missed on TV. The speed was one thing that didn't come through much on TV, and the quality and the difficulty of non-jump elements of FS was a bit hard to appreciate for someone without experience in skating like me. So I guessed that there were things I needed to learn before judging him as overscored.

I felt similar about Takahiko Kozuka and Carolina Kostner who were in the same show. I wasn't a fan of both, but seeing them live made me think that the movements I found a bit boring on TV (such as spread eagle and spiral) in fact might require good skating skills and body control.

Although I went there mainly to see Yuzu for the first time, (Yuzu was gorgeous even when he was performing Hello, I love you for the first time a bit awkwardly. He had great speed, flow, and beautiful jumps) who left the biggest impact on me that day were these three skaters known for their skating skills. They let me know that there was more to this sport.

 

Although I don't like some of the things he said about Yuzu in the past, I basically like his skating and I think there are good reasons for him to take pride in what he has been doing.

[Fay]

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