General Skating Chat

[SparkleSalad]

43 minutes ago, memae said:

 

Didn't he also say something recently about a 4A? When in the WC19 press conference Nathan himself was like nope,nope,nope let's leave that one for Yuzu. I think a lot of what Raf says is done strategically. 

Even more recently he said that he considered both 4A and quints to be physically impossible for any skater. Not sure Raf saw the Japanese broadcast of that interview, though. 

[Old Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, WinForPooh said:

Yes but at this point I think Raf is trolling because he's obviously saying the exact opposite of everything Nathan is saying. And he's not a stupid man, right? So this must be some kind of social experiment trolling thing to see how far he can push US media. It must be.

 

If that's true, then it makes me like Raf more

[WinForPooh]

4 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

 

If that's true, then it makes me like Raf more

 

Obviously I have no way of knowing but. But what else could it possibly be? Surely he knows what Nathan says! So he's just deliberately saying the opposite and baiting them? Nathan flat out admitted he's not even landing the 4Lo anymore.

[mercedes]

10 hours ago, WinForPooh said:

 

Obviously I have no way of knowing but. But what else could it possibly be? Surely he knows what Nathan says! So he's just deliberately saying the opposite and baiting them? Nathan flat out admitted he's not even landing the 4Lo anymore.

I think Raf thinks media can influence TP and JP in a  way,especially US media that are basically known all over the world....I kinda like the trolling idea tho;-)

 

 

Just out of curioisty do you guys know what can change the abilty to land a jump?apart from obvious things like growing,being havier and taller which of course it doesn't seem Nathan case...so what is it?lack of proper training ?injuries we don't know about?

 

[shanshani]

1 hour ago, mercedes said:

I think Raf thinks media can influence TP and JP in a  way,especially US media that are basically known all over the world....I kinda like the trolling idea tho;-)

 

 

Just out of curioisty do you guys know what can change the abilty to land a jump?apart from obvious things like growing,being havier and taller which of course it doesn't seem Nathan case...so what is it?lack of proper training ?injuries we don't know about?

 

Injuries, lack of conditioning, psychological blocks

 

sometimes with newer jumps it feels like even the weather can change whether your landing percent is 50% or 0% 

[yuzuangel]

1 hour ago, mercedes said:

 

Just out of curioisty do you guys know what can change the abilty to land a jump?apart from obvious things like growing,being havier and taller which of course it doesn't seem Nathan case...so what is it?lack of proper training ?injuries we don't know about?

yeah there are so many possible reasons...sometimes you land a jump out of luck a few times...also you might lose jumps by learning another jump that has a slightly different timing so it messes with your timing on the first one. like i think the majority of skaters have trouble with one of flip or lutz just because they're so similar yet so different, it's so hard to develop strong muscle memory for both at the same time.

[mercedes]

1 minute ago, yuzuangel said:

yeah there are so many possible reasons...sometimes you land a jump out of luck a few times...also you might lose jumps by learning another jump that has a slightly different timing so it messes with your timing on the first one. like i think the majority of skaters have trouble with flip and lutz just because they're so similar yet so different.

 

21 minutes ago, shanshani said:

Injuries, lack of conditioning, psychological blocks

 

sometimes with newer jumps it feels like even the weather can change whether your landing percent is 50% or 0% 

thank you both,it must be vert frustrating but it also once again sows what ana mazing sport FS is!

[sweetwater]

For Nathan practicing 4Lo might be more risky than beneficial since he suffered hip injury in the past. Besides, he doesn't need it much to win now. I guess his 4Lo is taking a walk now since Nathan rarely calls him to ask for help.

But skaters lose their jumps for various reasons, like when their shoes doesn't fit well, when the blade is buckled, after taking time off, after a long flight, when they suffer slight injury that hinder them from pulling in tightly while rotating, etc. They lose it even when there seem to be no reason. It's a tough sport. 

[shanshani]

2 hours ago, sweetwater said:

For Nathan practicing 4Lo might be more risky than beneficial since he suffered hip injury in the past. Besides, he doesn't need it much to win now. I guess his 4Lo is taking a walk now since Nathan rarely calls him to ask for help.

But skaters lose their jumps for various reasons, like when their shoes doesn't fit well, when the blade is buckled, after taking time off, after a long flight, when they suffer slight injury that hinder them from pulling in tightly while rotating, etc. They lose it even when there seem to be no reason. It's a tough sport. 

he does need it (or 4A...) if he eventually wants to do a 6 quad layout. but he's probably focused on stabilizing 4S right now

[Salior]

7 hours ago, mercedes said:

Just out of curioisty do you guys know what can change the abilty to land a jump?apart from obvious things like growing,being havier and taller which of course it doesn't seem Nathan case...so what is it?lack of proper training ?injuries we don't know about?

 

 

Well some people pointed out that 4Lo could be harder than 4Lz, also Nate has always been a toe jumper rather than edge jumper, so I'm not surprised about that. Quads pushes the physical limits so much that landing them is one thing, and landing them consistently is another. Yuzu could land 5S, but it'll be a while before he can put it in competition 

 

 

 

[Salior]

this sounds huge 

 

 

That guy was the one who previewed the +5/-5 system 

 

 

you can read the comment chain here

[Old Cat Lady]

10 hours ago, mercedes said:

Just out of curioisty do you guys know what can change the abilty to land a jump?apart from obvious things like growing,being havier and taller which of course it doesn't seem Nathan case...so what is it?lack of proper training ?injuries we don't know about?

 

 

In addition to what shanshani and sweetwater already said, lighting, ice condition, layout changes, difficulty of layout, change in skating skills, and even the size of the rink.  Pretty much anything outside of a skater's normal conditions when building the muscle memory can affect the ability to land a jump.  I read that Shoma actually changed the position of his blade to help him land the 4 loop, but I think it eventually caused other issues so I'm guessing he doesn't do that anymore, which explains why he no longer attempts the loop.

 

Nathan's only ever attempted/landed the loop once in competition and I get the feeling it was more to get the "only man to land every type of quad" milestone.  I read that he hasn't practiced it in long time, though that might be fan speculation.  It's possible that he quit doing it more as a preventive measure since he had that hip surgery. I think he was also slightly lighter in 2017 than he is now. Or maybe it's the quad that's most difficult for him and so he just can't do it with the demands of the new FS format. Or it could be simply that after taking a break from that element, he hasn't been able to successfully rebuild the muscle memory.

 

3 hours ago, Salior said:

this sounds huge 

 

 

That guy was the one who previewed the +5/-5 system 

 

 

you can read the comment chain here

 

When I first heard about the artistic and technical program split, just like most of the fandom, I thought it was so stupid.  but the more I think about it, I'm warming up to it.  If it's the way @KatjaThera described it, it doesn't seem like it would be that different from the SP vs. FS.  The "technical" program would be jump heavy, like the FS already is.  The "artistic" program would limit the ability to win by pure BV and provide relatively greater reward to quality of skating, like the SP already does.  Both would contain aspects of both, but weight certain aspects more heavily.  

 

Theoretically, this provides a more competitive format for skaters like Brown and would be a good avenue for more experienced skaters who may be losing their jumps but peaking in other aspects.  And older ladies won't have to be pushed out of the sport every few years when their bodies no longer allow them to keep up with the baby quadsters.  Ladies will actually have enough time to develop into complete skaters and build a relationship with the audience.  We don't have to constantly make drastic changes depending on whether high tech or skating quality is the flavor of the month.  In the men's thread we're discussing the impact of multiple quads on the body - skaters will then have a choice in how much wear and tear they're willing to put their body through.  

 

This also means that dying elements can get a chance to be revitalized in the sport.  I would love for a MITF requirement to be added back into skating.  They're one of the best tests of edge quality, control, and body line.  And skaters won't have to choose between actual skating vs. mugging/posing and bad dancing (which is apparently what the choreo seq currently rewards)

 

The format wouldn't be all that different from gymnastics or swimming or track - which has separate events for different types of skills as well as medals for an "all-around" to reward athletes that excel in all aspects. 

 

Obviously, as in with all sports, in order for both programs to have legitimacy, they need criteria for winning to be standardized and transparent.  And I really, really hope, they come up with a more athletically respectable name than the "artistic" program

[liv]

You know what I would love to see, just for fun? At any competition, you have your regular panel of judges/controllers etc.. and then a panel there made up entirely of former skaters and coaches... like international championships medal caliber skaters, and see how they would score the using the same system etc.. I would love to see the difference that the skating group would give in terms of GOE and skating skills etc... because I bet there would be one...

[sallycinnamon]

On 11/8/2019 at 4:51 AM, Salior said:

this sounds huge 

 

 

That guy was the one who previewed the +5/-5 system 

 

 

you can read the comment chain here

 

We talked about earlier, the interviews with Lakernik was posted on the Hungarian Skating Federation's site last year and this year so I summarized them:

 

On 8/22/2019 at 11:56 PM, sallycinnamon said:

In a new interview with Lakernik he talked a bit about the -5/+5 GOE change, chances of the introduction of the artistic vs technical program, and that at next year's Congress they'll propose to bring back the qualifying rounds at World Championships and Olympic Games. 

http://moksz.hu/mukorcsolya/magyarorszagnak-igen-jok-az-eselyei

 

 

 

IDK, if there's a four or five points difference GOEs in judging for the same element, or that it's very often tied to BV and they're lenient with some skaters, too strict with others means that no everyone got used to the new system...? 

 

The number of quads didn't really get lower if we consider the numbers in %.  He didn't talked about that though...

 

Also it seems from his wording that they really want to implement the new technical vs artistic program system. 

 

On 8/25/2019 at 3:56 PM, sallycinnamon said:

 

I'm quoting this first interview with Lakernik here from August last year because that's when he talked about the technical vs artistic program in more details. At that time he talked about this as a possible change, now he says the possibility of introduction of the system is very high.

He talked about some other things too in that interview. He says lots of things how judging should look like ideally but in reality it is not what happens. I also don't see how the new system would keep that good balance of technique and art, which is essential of a good program in his opinion too.

 

 

They talk about some problems at seminars/webinars when it comes to judging, so they know the problems exist but then things don't change at competitions. The accountability of judging is almost non existent because that's how the system works now, even if judging is not anonymous anymore. That's a big problem, the other is that many still have a way of thinking of the 6.0 system which would require to educate the officials properly (there are big differences in the federation regarding education and experience of judges but after all it is ISU's responsibility to have properly trained officials at international competitions) . The dependency of judges from their own federations is also a problem because it puts pressure on them.

I am not too optimistic about the future it they remain not accountable for their work then things will barely change. The sport will lose interest and many fans.

 

 

These big changes would be after Beijing.

 

Lakernik seems optimistic that the congress would vote for the changes so to me it sounds as if it was already half-decided...

[Salior]

55 minutes ago, sallycinnamon said:

 

We talked about earlier, the interviews with Lakernik was posted on the Hungarian Skating Federation's site last year and this year so I summarized them:

 

Lakernik seems optimistic that the congress would vote for the changes so to me it sounds as if it was already half-decided...

 

Thanks! 

 

55 minutes ago, sallycinnamon said:

These big changes would be after Beijing.

 

Well it'll probably be too late for Yuzu and many others. But better late than never