General Skating Chat

[sallycinnamon]

So far we have the entry lists of the Challengers that will be mid-September:

 

ACI: http://www.isuresults.com/events/fsevent03111900.htm

US Classic: http://www.isuresults.com/events/fsevent03111903.htm

Lombardia Trophy: http://www.isuresults.com/events/fsevent03111902.htm

 

Zhenya will be very busy because there's test skate on 7-8 Sept in Russia, then she goes to ACI a few days later, and in the beginning of October, there's Shanghai Trophy. I am sure she won't do Nebelhorn if she goes to ACI, she goes to one Challenger event before the GP series.

[sallycinnamon]

In a new interview with Lakernik he talked a bit about the -5/+5 GOE change, chances of the introduction of the artistic vs technical program, and that at next year's Congress they'll propose to bring back the qualifying rounds at World Championships and Olympic Games. 

http://moksz.hu/mukorcsolya/magyarorszagnak-igen-jok-az-eselyei

 

Quote

Q: Looking back at last season, do you think the change of GOE system from -3/+3 to -5/+5 GOE, and limiting the number of quadruple jumps have possitive effects?

 

Lakernik: In my experience, switching to a scale from -5 to +5 went smoothly, everyone was easily accustomed to the new system. Because in this, the final score is calculated as a percentage of the element's base value and GOE (with -5 GOE, -50%, -4 GOE 40%, etc., and +40% in case of +4 GOE, +50% for +5 GOE etc. - the author), scoring is more logical. Looking at the quadruple jumps, it is difficult to say whether the situation has changed radically. Some countries may not have been happy with this limit, but this amendment also points to the replacement of the short program and the technical and artistic program, the chances that the member states will vote for it at the next congress in 2020 are high.

 

Quote

Q: In his presentation before the test skate, you also mentioned that a new system would be proposed for World Championships and the Olympics at next year's ISU Congress. Specifically, it is a rebuilding of an old/new qualifying round - it would be the rebuilding of the qualifying round, which was discontinued in 2006, then returned to the 2011 and 2012 World Championships and then re-deleted. How would this phase of the competition take place and why would it be needed again?

 

Lakernik:

As more and more countries want to start skating for the World Championships, last year the Congress commissioned us to develop a system that would allow this.

Under the new system, the top 24 in the ranking would automatically qualify for the short program at the World Championships and the Olympic Games. In the qualifying round, 30 skaters could skate from those countries that are not represented in the Top 24 and that are next in the ranking. The top 12 competitors there could join the top 24, so 36 could start competing in the short program. Previously, the qualifying round was canceled because it made the competition even longer. We had to find a solution for this: in the new system there would be only one practice day instead of two, so we could insert the qualifying round into the same amount of time.

One of the most important tasks of the upcoming season is to work out this proposal well and prepare well for the 2020 Congress.

 

IDK, if there's a four or five points difference GOEs in judging for the same element, or that it's very often tied to BV and they're lenient with some skaters, too strict with others means that no everyone got used to the new system...? 

 

The number of quads didn't really get lower if we consider the numbers in %.  He didn't talked about that though...

 

Also it seems from his wording that they really want to implement the new technical vs artistic program system. 

[Henni147]

8 hours ago, sallycinnamon said:

In a new interview with Lakernik he talked a bit about the -5/+5 GOE change, chances of the introduction of the artistic vs technical program, and that at next year's Congress they'll propose to bring back the qualifying rounds at World Championships and Olympic Games. 

http://moksz.hu/mukorcsolya/magyarorszagnak-igen-jok-az-eselyei

 

IDK, if there's a four or five points difference GOEs in judging for the same element, or that it's very often tied to BV and they're lenient with some skaters, too strict with others means that no everyone got used to the new system...? 

 

The number of quads didn't really get lower if we consider the numbers in %.  He didn't talked about that though...

 

Also it seems from his wording that they really want to accept the new technical vs artistic program system. 

 

It's one thing to get used to a new system, but a completely different story to accept and second it.

 

The truth is: The judging system, the rulebook and the SOV tables have never been the real issue. A well-rounded skater with top-quality execution should be able to succeed in every system from the old 6.0 to the current +/-5.

 

The biggest problem was mentioned very clearly in this year's summer webinars (they do not even deny it): Many judges do not reward their scores according to the written guidelines, but have their own illegal criteria like starting order, flag, world ranking position, past performances, personal favorites...

 

A split into a "technical" and "artistic" program won't solve anything. The corrupt and inacurrate human judging will remain (get even worse for the artistic part) and figure skating will lose its charme as a sport that merges technique and choreography. Lakernik would never admit it, but I'm sure that deep in his freezing heart he knows this.

[yuzuangel]

On 8/22/2019 at 2:56 PM, sallycinnamon said:

In a new interview with Lakernik he talked a bit about the -5/+5 GOE change, chances of the introduction of the artistic vs technical program, and that at next year's Congress they'll propose to bring back the qualifying rounds at World Championships and Olympic Games. 

http://moksz.hu/mukorcsolya/magyarorszagnak-igen-jok-az-eselyei

 

 

 

IDK, if there's a four or five points difference GOEs in judging for the same element, or that it's very often tied to BV and they're lenient with some skaters, too strict with others means that no everyone got used to the new system...? 

 

The number of quads didn't really get lower if we consider the numbers in %.  He didn't talked about that though...

 

Also it seems from his wording that they really want to accept the new technical vs artistic program system. 

So..they could literally use this format for 2022 Beijing? Or would it be for after Beijing?

[robin]

1 hour ago, yuzuangel said:

So..they could literally use this format for 2022 Beijing? Or would it be for after Beijing?

 

I don’t think they could implement such a big change mid-quad.... They could probably implement it earliest in 22/23 

 

I hope never 

[kaeryth]

Might as well call it ice dance (singles) + ice jumps instead of figure skating.

[WinForPooh]

1 hour ago, kaeryth said:

Might as well call it ice dance (singles) + ice jumps instead of figure skating.

 

They can't call it ice dance (singles) unless different skaters can do the SP and FS in the new system. They'll have to call it Arm Transition Shimmy Programme and Jump Test.

[mercedes]

6 hours ago, WinForPooh said:

 

They can't call it ice dance (singles) unless different skaters can do the SP and FS in the new system. They'll have to call it Arm Transition Shimmy Programme and Jump Test.

I almost spit my coffee!

What a terrible terrible idea,sometimes I wonder what kind of agenda these people have?A sport needs its fans and it needs to be accesible to a vast audience no matter how complex its rulebook is:do they live on another planet?(clearly on the wrong one ).

[WinForPooh]

23 minutes ago, mercedes said:

I almost spit my coffee!

What a terrible terrible idea,sometimes I wonder what kind of agenda these people have?A sport needs its fans and it needs to be accesible to a vast audience no matter how complex its rulebook is:do they live on another planet?(clearly on the wrong one ).

 

It can be shortened to ArT SP, too, so it all works out in the end.

[Neenah]

The ISU are very optimistic if they think they can actually have separate artistic and technical programs. They may start as two different segments but they will keep on adding rules and requirements because the judging in the artistic program is too subjective for the Olympics and the technical program is too boring. In the end, we will have either two programs with similar requirements or they will just drop one and keep only one program per competition, which may be their goal now that I think about it  

[WinForPooh]

I'm pretty sure we've all read this before but I think we should read it again:

 

 

 

[Kadova]

They have done that in the past, 1 artistic programmme and 1 technical programme. Stupid idea imho, and will not resolve anything.

[sallycinnamon]

On 8/21/2018 at 12:59 AM, sallycinnamon said:

There's a new interview with Lakernik which was posted a few days ago, he was talking about a few things about the new rules and the possible changes after 2022:

 

http://moksz.hu/jegtanc/otven-eve-biroi-szekben

 

A short summary of the interview:

 

- according to Lakernik, the purpose of the new system is to enable judges to express the differences in quality even more

- the new rules could contribute to more balanced programs but correct judging is the most important - someone who has lots of quads can win the world championships because of high TES but only because of high technical content they shouldn't automatically get high components. Those marks could be a lot lower if the program is nothing special. Scores should reflect what happens on the ice on a particular day 

- a really good program has a good balance of technique and art

- about the possible changes after 2022: they'd want to make the SP and FS even more different than it is now: the 'technical program' and the 'artistic program' would have the same length; the technical program would have more jumps and spins and it would be instrumental while the artistic program would have more free elements and skaters could use also vocal music in it. The majority of the scores (2/3) in the technical program would be TES, in the artistic program the components would weigh more and there wouldn't be levels in it, just BV+GOE.

 

I'm quoting this first interview with Lakernik here from August last year because that's when he talked about the technical vs artistic program in more details. At that time he talked about this as a possible change, now he says the possibility of introduction of the system is very high.

He talked about some other things too in that interview. He says lots of things how judging should look like ideally but in reality it is not what happens. I also don't see how the new system would keep that good balance of technique and art, which is essential of a good program in his opinion too.

 

On 8/23/2019 at 9:32 AM, Henni147 said:

A split into a "technical" and "artistic" program won't solve anything. The corrupt and inacurrate human judging will remain (get even worse for the artistic part) and figure skating will lose its charme as a sport that merges technique and choreography. Lakernik would never admit it, but I'm sure that deep in his freezing heart he knows this.

 

They talk about some problems at seminars/webinars when it comes to judging, so they know the problems exist but then things don't change at competitions. The accountability of judging is almost non existent because that's how the system works now, even if judging is not anonymous anymore. That's a big problem, the other is that many still have a way of thinking of the 6.0 system which would require to educate the officials properly (there are big differences in the federation regarding education and experience of judges but after all it is ISU's responsibility to have properly trained officials at international competitions) . The dependency of judges from their own federations is also a problem because it puts pressure on them.

I am not too optimistic about the future it they remain not accountable for their work then things will barely change. The sport will lose interest and many fans.

 

12 hours ago, yuzuangel said:

So..they could literally use this format for 2022 Beijing? Or would it be for after Beijing?

 

These big changes would be after Beijing.

[Xen]

"In his presentation before the test skate, you also mentioned that a new system would be proposed for World Championships and the Olympics at next year's ISU Congress."

I'm hoping this isn't for Beijing, because if the system goes as it does now, it's highly possible that ladies will be primarily Russian and Japanese, if the top 24 in world standings trend holds. Men's might be a bit more diverse, but still, less diversity overall. 

 

As for the artistic versus technical program, how will this work out for pairs and ice dance? I guess for ice dance we'll have compulsory dance patterns? o_O

Which brings me back to an old tweet:

 

 

Speaking of which, after this format change, what kind of titles will we have? The 2023 Jump champion? The 2023 Hand Choreography World Champion? 

Speaking of which, about the artistry competition, no one has bothered to reply yet, was the Peggy Flemming competition format programs significantly more artistic than status quo? 

[yuzuangel]

6 hours ago, WinForPooh said:

I'm pretty sure we've all read this before but I think we should read it again:

 

 

 

So many things wrong with this I don't know where to begin.