General Skating Chat

[hoodie axel]

Wow, sharing with a friend. We had a conversation about how THAT would have looked like "if" forums were there, but guess we don't have to imagine anymore.

 

@yuzuangel how can I find a Yagudin vs Plushenko one?

[Neenah]

The ISU is archiving all past records and starting over after the rule changes

Quote

Further to the introduction of the +5 / -5 GOE, all statistics start from zero for the season 2018/19. All previous statistics are now historical. 

https://www.isu.org/statistics

Understandable of course because the changes are big, but I really hope the early challengers won't go crazy with scoring and ruin the whole records thing  

[yuzuangel]

3 minutes ago, Neenah said:

The ISU is archiving all past records and starting over after the rule changes

Understandable of course because the changes are big, but I really hope the early challengers won't go crazy with scoring and ruin the whole records thing  

[smalltext]I hope Yuzu skates well this season at least once this season  because i don't want to hear commentators hype up so-and-so other "record" holders all day without mentioning that it's because everything got restarted[/smalltext]

[yuzuangel]

On 8/11/2018 at 9:09 PM, hoodie axel said:

Wow, sharing with a friend. We had a conversation about how THAT would have looked like "if" forums were there, but guess we don't have to imagine anymore.

 

@yuzuangel how can I find a Yagudin vs Plushenko one?

 

Not sure but the group (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/rec.sport.skating.ice.figure) goes back quite a lot and you can keep scrolling xD Warning though: some of the stuff may be inappropriate/NSFW/spammy. I'm not sure because i haven't checked it out.

[EisElle]

re: WR ('ISU highest scores'?) reset

ooooh gotta give it to the ISU, they've solved the issue of having more WR this new quad (tho judges must not go too score-happy too soon, or by 2022, again, there won't be any room left to make general audience excited!)

At the moment I feel half-pleased (yay Yuzuru forever WR holder!) / half-

(record galore in Challenger series) but this is one more challenge to keep Yuzuru motivated, so

He'll want to break the new scoring system even more 

unrelated but yasssss finally got my hands on a bit of wi-fi it feels so good to post again!

[sallycinnamon]

There's a new interview with Lakernik which was posted a few days ago, he was talking about a few things about the new rules and the possible changes after 2022:

 

http://moksz.hu/jegtanc/otven-eve-biroi-szekben

 

A short summary of the interview:

 

- according to Lakernik, the purpose of the new system is to enable judges to express the differences in quality even more

- the new rules could contribute to more balanced programs but correct judging is the most important - someone who has lots of quads can win the world championships because of high TES but only because of high technical content they shouldn't automatically get high components. Those marks could be a lot lower if the program is nothing special. Scores should reflect what happens on the ice on a particular day 

- a really good program has a good balance of technique and art

- about the possible changes after 2022: they'd want to make the SP and FS even more different than it is now: the 'technical program' and the 'artistic program' would have the same length; the technical program would have more jumps and spins and it would be instrumental while the artistic program would have more free elements and skaters could use also vocal music in it. The majority of the scores (2/3) in the technical program would be TES, in the artistic program the components would weigh more and there wouldn't be levels in it just BV+GOE.

 

--

 

I think the possible changes after 2022 are just ideas and there's still plenty of time to think them through, but I think there's a big contradiction when he says that a good program has a balance of technique and art, but in the new system one program would have more TES and the other would be more artistic. It would mean that the essence of this sport would be lost - to have balanced programs, in which both technique and art are (more or less) equally important. 

 

+ regardless of the judging system itself, correct judging and scores should always be top priority. But we know that this sport doesn't really work like this.

 

[Sombreuil]

I began to answer this but stopped because it was pointless.  We know what the problem is and where it lies and we know that there is no desire/ will / call it what you like, in the ISU to tackle the issue.  I have no words for Mr Lakernik and his minions polite enough to use on this forum.

[Neenah]

7 minutes ago, sallycinnamon said:

There's a new interview with Lakernik which was posted a few days ago, he was talking about a few things about the new rules and the possible changes after 2022:

 

http://moksz.hu/jegtanc/otven-eve-biroi-szekben

 

A short summary of the interview:

 

- according to Lakernik, the purpose of the new system is to enable judges to express the differences in quality even more

- the new rules could contribute to more balanced programs but correct judging is the most important - someone who has lots of quads can win the world championships because of high TES but only because of high technical content they shouldn't automatically get high components. Those marks could be a lot lower if the program is nothing special. Scores should reflect what happens on the ice on a particular day 

- a really good program has a good balance of technique and art

- about the possible changes after 2022: they'd want to make the SP and FS even more different than it is now: the 'technical program' and the 'artistic program' would have the same length; the technical program would have more jumps and spins and it would be instrumental while the artistic program would have more free elements and skaters could use also vocal music in it. The majority of the scores (2/3) in the technical program would be TES, in the artistic program the components would weigh more and there wouldn't be levels in it just BV+GOE.

 

--

 

I think the possible changes after 2022 are just ideas and there's still plenty of time to think them through, but I think there's a big contradiction when he says that a good program has a balance of technique and art, but in the new system one program would have more TES and the other would be more artistic. It would mean that the essence of this sport would be lost - to have balanced programs, in which both technique and art are (more or less) equally important. 

 

+ regardless of the judging system itself, correct judging and scores should always be top priority. But we know that this sport doesn't really work like this.

 

What really annoys me in these interviews with ISU members and the congress they streamed is you can clearly see that they are aware of the judging issue and are always talking about how it should be done correctly, and yet we don't see it applied. Punishing the Chinese judges was a good step but a very small and incomplete one that caused more discontent and mistrust instead of helping the integrity of the sport.

I know that there is no easy solution to the problems in judging but they need to at least try more seriously. 

[robin]

 

54 minutes ago, sallycinnamon said:

There's a new interview with Lakernik which was posted a few days ago, he was talking about a few things about the new rules and the possible changes after 2022:

 

http://moksz.hu/jegtanc/otven-eve-biroi-szekben

 

A short summary of the interview:

 

- according to Lakernik, the purpose of the new system is to enable judges to express the differences in quality even more

- the new rules could contribute to more balanced programs but correct judging is the most important - someone who has lots of quads can win the world championships because of high TES but only because of high technical content they shouldn't automatically get high components. Those marks could be a lot lower if the program is nothing special. Scores should reflect what happens on the ice on a particular day 

- a really good program has a good balance of technique and art

- about the possible changes after 2022: they'd want to make the SP and FS even more different than it is now: the 'technical program' and the 'artistic program' would have the same length; the technical program would have more jumps and spins and it would be instrumental while the artistic program would have more free elements and skaters could use also vocal music in it. The majority of the scores (2/3) in the technical program would be TES, in the artistic program the components would weigh more and there wouldn't be levels in it just BV+GOE.

 

--

 

I think the possible changes after 2022 are just ideas and there's still plenty of time to think them through, but I think there's a big contradiction when he says that a good program has a balance of technique and art, but in the new system one program would have more TES and the other would be more artistic. It would mean that the essence of this sport would be lost - to have balanced programs, in which both technique and art are (more or less) equally important. 

 

+ regardless of the judging system itself, correct judging and scores should always be top priority. But we know that this sport doesn't really work like this.

 

 

Sigh now I’m just sad. I mean, I get why it doesn’t lie in their interest to fix corruption and politics, it does seem a bit far fetched to expect that from ISU... but why make it worse? They can’t actually be hoping to fix the problem of corridor judging by these measures. It’s bs. Does the ISU even know their own sport? I wish they’d listen to what Yuzu has to say on how jumps are ideally an integral part of a program. 

[Xen]

There are no easy solutions, but I think there are ways:

1) increase transparency and do work to promote the popularity of figure skating. It doesn't need to be say, tennis level, but maybe just a tad more than now would be fine. I'm not sure if the argument that fans can't follow numbers is a valid argument-look at some of the X-games, where there are BV systems in play. I think it's an issue of broadcasters not explaining stuff/educating casual viewers. Why increasing popularity? Because its that that will have a bit of a check/counter-balance against judging. Okay, so ISU can't get judges to do stuff. But with sufficient transparency, let's let viewers put the pressure on feds for feds to explain why they judge a certain way? Yes, maybe we're all nationalistic and like our country's skaters to do well, but that's up to a certain point. I think in the end, majority of fans follow the spirit of sports and say may the best skater of that day (even if not my country) win fair and square.

 

2) Give tech panels a bit more teeth, and allow them to do their job. Actually call PRs and blade take offs etc, get more cameras etc. If those actually get called, I'm not sure if all the recent changes were even that necessary. But more than even increasing the weight of TES, this is an actual measure of giving more control back to the skaters and coaching teams. Without these changes, I'm not sure the TES-based program is going to go the way ISU ideally wants it to go.

       a. I get the idea of the TES based program, but until GOEs are clearly defined, and there is actual diffrentiation between a minimal PR/ proper take off jump and one that is not, the TES is still not really differentiated. A quad jump with 90 degree PR and a quad jump with 200 degree PR are different, and that should be differentiated in the points. Also, the steps into the solo jump- sorry, but if that rule were actually applied, we'd see even more difference on the technical points between skaters. As it should be....

 

3)I'm sorry, but an artistic program in the format of the broadmoor open/peggy fleming cup? Uh....look, have we actually figured out if such programs are actually more "artistic"? If not, why is it now the artistic program? o_O At this point, they might as well drag back compulsory figures and have it done to music. I'm sure there are people who will consider that the pinnacle of artistry, and besides, it satisfies cravings for the "good ole days" when you know, skaters were so much more "artistic" with "better" skating skills because they didn't have to focus on the jumping. o_O

[Smultron]

7 hours ago, sallycinnamon said:

 

- about the possible changes after 2022: they'd want to make the SP and FS even more different than it is now: the 'technical program' and the 'artistic program' would have the same length; the technical program would have more jumps and spins and it would be instrumental while the artistic program would have more free elements and skaters could use also vocal music in it. The majority of the scores (2/3) in the technical program would be TES, in the artistic program the components would weigh more and there wouldn't be levels in it just BV+GOE.

 

 

 

*stares into the void* 

[Lunna]

10 часов назад, sallycinnamon сказал:

I think the possible changes after 2022 are just ideas and there's still plenty of time to think them through, but I think there's a big contradiction when he says that a good program has a balance of technique and art, but in the new system one program would have more TES and the other would be more artistic. It would mean that the essence of this sport would be lost - to have balanced programs, in which both technique and art are (more or less) equally important. 

 

+ regardless of the judging system itself, correct judging and scores should always be top priority. But we know that this sport doesn't really work like this.

I agree. At one point I get the idea: there're always arguments what is more important - TES or artistry and now every party will have there own programme and I think they should have separate medals + combined one. But it will be another sport then. And don't know about will it increase popularity or not cuz artistic programme will be closer to ID and I think it's less popular event in FS right now (I don't even want to peak about judging).

[KatjaThera]

On 8/6/2018 at 6:19 AM, shanshani said:

 

Thank you! For future reference, I pulled the bullets from the video:
 

Jumps:

Very good height and very good length (of all of the jumps in a combo or sequence)

Good takeoff and landing

Effortless throughout (including rhythm if it’s a combination jump)

Steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry

Very good body position from the takeoff to the landing

Element matches the music

 

Spins:

Good speed and/or acceleration during the spin

Good, controlled, clear position(s) (including height and air/landing position in flying spin)

Effortless throughout

Maintaining a centered spin

Creativity and originality

Element matches the music

 

Step sequences:

Deep edges, clean steps and turns

Element matches the music

Effortless throughout with good energy, flow and execution

Creativity and originality

Excellent commitment and control of the whole body

Good acceleration and deceleration

 

Choreographic sequences:

Creativity and originality

Element enhances the music

Effortless throughout with good energy, flow and execution

Good ice coverage (ie. skater uses the whole rink in their performance)

Good clarity and precision (ie. the steps and turns the skater uses are obvious)

Excellent commitment and control of the whole body

Underlined are the "core bullets" a skater is supposed to hit before judges are supposed to give them more than +3.

I'm no technical expert, but to me, all of these bullets for each thing (maybe ever so slightly more permissive, though not much...) should actually be the basic stuff to get 0. And from then on start piling up points to reward the truly outstanding skaters. Like... why should a choreo sequence that does not have good ice coverage or excellent commitment and control of the whole body get +3? Or a spin that doesn't have creativity and originality as well as that excellent commitment and control blah blah? Or a jump that doesn't have Very good body position from the takeoff to the landing? OK, let's say timing it to the music could be a bonus thing - though it really shouldn't be; want jumps to mean something? Make it mandatory to have them timed to the music - same for steps and creative entrance - though IMO, at least steps should also be mandatory. (And by mandatory I mean basic requirement for 0 GOE.)

 

That would definitely balance things out far more than increasing GOE scope, IMO and set a higher standard for skaters. They say skaters now have much higher technical difficulty right? So reflect that in the GOE bullets in a different way, by increasing the stuff they need to do to get 0 GOE. (Admittedly, I am severely spoiled by Yuzu, but if you really want to level field, why not level it up? Force the others to climb up to his level, not try to bring him down to every one else's level?)

 

Blah, I have no idea why I get so fired up on this alternative things when nobody will ever even consider them lol

 

But hearing that GOE is a mess already is no surprise... And if the messes continue, it will just give judges an excuse to throw candy - "It was just my opinion, look at other competitions, it's perfectly normal for GOE to vary wildly between judges!" - and that's just ugh. And it is even more frustrating when the powers that be at the ISU say the same the things we do on forums, but then go an do something completely different, roundabout and confusing...

[Pamigena]

1 hour ago, KatjaThera said:

I'm no technical expert, but to me, all of these bullets for each thing (maybe ever so slightly more permissive, though not much...) should actually be the basic stuff to get 0. And from then on start piling up points to reward the truly outstanding skaters. Like... why should a choreo sequence that does not have good ice coverage or excellent commitment and control of the whole body get +3? Or a spin that doesn't have creativity and originality as well as that excellent commitment and control blah blah? Or a jump that doesn't have Very good body position from the takeoff to the landing? OK, let's say timing it to the music could be a bonus thing - though it really shouldn't be; want jumps to mean something? Make it mandatory to have them timed to the music - same for steps and creative entrance - though IMO, at least steps should also be mandatory. (And by mandatory I mean basic requirement for 0 GOE.)

 

That would definitely balance things out far more than increasing GOE scope, IMO and set a higher standard for skaters. They say skaters now have much higher technical difficulty right? So reflect that in the GOE bullets in a different way, by increasing the stuff they need to do to get 0 GOE. (Admittedly, I am severely spoiled by Yuzu, but if you really want to level field, why not level it up? Force the others to climb up to his level, not try to bring him down to every one else's level?)

 

But you need a starting point. If you need to do all these things to even get to 0, then where do you start? At -5? And how would you subtract even more from that if something is done really badly? Wouldn't you run the risk of ending up with a negative total score for an element? And increasing the standards for the top skaters is one thing, but how would this work with the lower levels? Would you really hammer some baby skaters with massive negative scores because they can't do everything picture-perfect already? I think the 0 is supposed to be the average execution. You did the element, you technically didn't make any mistakes, but you also didn't execute it very well = 0

[KatjaThera]

Well, where you start would depend on what exactly the mistakes considered are and also what can be added as extra. I don't think negative scores for elements would be a real issue, because I don't think overall negative scores are possible.

 

What my idea essentially is is to change what executing an element correctly means. So even rookie skaters would have to learn to them correctly - ie by these standards, or, like I said, a slightly more permissive version - from the beginning, to get the points. (Although admittedly, I did not take them into consideration).

 

I guess what I had in mind with this is that there are skaters who get plenty of points just from base value +n%, depending on what it is, so why bother do all the other difficult stuff for extra GOE? Especially when that adds the risk of falling. And the higher the base value, the higher the GOE, regardless of whether they add stuff to it. If however, the GOE standard itself was changed and the requirements for 0 were more severe, they'd have little choice but improve their technical skills.

 

For example, here in school, you need to get a mark of 5 out of maximum 10 to pass an exam. My idea for FS is as if in this system, instead of 5, you made the passing mark be a 7. You automatically raise the level like that. Many students only study enough to get the 5. But if the passing mark was 7, they'd have to study more and learn more, in order to get the passing mark of 7.

 

Although at the end of the day, none of this would be necessary if judging were done properly, so I guess it's back to the usual...