General Skating Chat

[kiches]

@fireovertheice thanks for those stats!

 

The build up for many competitors last season was really impressive all around leading up to 4CC and Worlds which is what I had expected for THIS season with such decent starts at some of the challenger events. 

 

I think Nathan tried to gradually increase the difficulty this season by watering down the content at US Classic, but instead of going upward after Rostelecom he’s only consistently dipped in the free. His SP is fairly stable as is though and has saved him several times (hasn’t won a free skate since US Classiv despite being undefeated so far - almost unheard of). 

 

 

 

 

[Aotoshiro]

14 hours ago, kiches said:

I think Nathan tried to gradually increase the difficulty this season by watering down the content at US Classic, but instead of going upward after Rostelecom he’s only consistently dipped in the free. His SP is fairly stable as is though and has saved him several times (hasn’t won a free skate since US Classic despite being undefeated so far - almost unheard of). 

Actually, while not being indefeated, it reminds me of Yuzuru's scores in his first year with Brian, where he obviously connected with SP (god bless Jeff Buttle), but had problems with executing LP with similar devotion (okay, devotion was there, it was stamina that was lacking...anyway, you know what I mean). To a lot it was actually considered a stepback from the Etude&RJ1 mix, right? And then it was also always go forth in the SP, flop the FP, which shocked him since he was previously known as FP comebacker... Wish Nathan didn't decide to go for this type of evolution in the Olys year, though x'D. Still, if this parallel is actually correct, we might see some nice skating from Nathan in a year or two  

[Lunna]

This GPF really made me think that maybe ISU must limit FS to 4 quads, but then guys can go for most difficult ones, so maybe punish more not only falls but very bad landings, it's interesting to see how in reality +/-5 GOE will go (not that I have much faith in judges though). Cuz really I'd rather see less quads but better overall performances and not empty programmes.

[EisElle]

Let's hope judges will suddenly remember to read the rulebook and check their eyesight properly before handling those +/-5 GOE.

For now, imo judging needs more fixing than rules.

I think before making any crazy change of rules themselves, they should start applying them strictly and consistently. You can't expect to fix scoring by changing rules randomly, you need to address the rules that don't work, but you can't know which rules doesn't work if you don't apply fully all the rules first.

From what we've seen thus far, it does look like limiting quads could do some good to overall programs. But no one can rule out that it is physically possible for a skater to do 7 quads while still being awesome on all the rest. i think before Sochi people would rule out that possibility with 4 quads, but we saw it is possible.

So here the problem lies in what the current scoring is saying to skaters: do a bunch of quads and you've got the win in your pocket, you just have to look like you're rotating them, I don't care if you don't do anything between them, or that you barely hang on the landing, or that you are pivoting on your blade instead than in the air.

 

(please forgive my long rambling)

 

If they started applying the no step rule, for example, we wouldn't see many quads in the SP, or at least we would see for some skaters scores that are more in the range of quadless people. A quad with no step is worth a -4, so for example a 4F would be worth less than 9 points, which is still a lot, but easier to be balanced out with spins and steps (or PCS).

If they didn't awarded goe just because the jump is difficult, we would see skaters minding more entries and exits, music, height and distance, flow. Nathan's jumps, while they can look effortless and (people tell me so) they've gotten bigger (but still not that huge), have no difficult entries, no varied arm position, no creative exit and tbh I would even say that some of them don't even really match the music, so at best they might deserve +2 but in no way they should get any +3. I don't care if 4Lz3T is the hardest combo ever, you're already getting the bv for that, if you don't hit the bullets for +3 than you don't. What is someone does a 4Lz3T out of steps, huge, matched to music, with double tano and does a SE after it? Then are we going to give the same score to two combos that are so clearly different in execution?

It look like some judges have lost sight of both what they see right now and what they still haven't seen.

Poor takeoff is worth deductions, too, and it irritates me to no end to hear Shoma's 4flip called masterclass, I'm even be a bit when someone calls him a good jumper. Nathan is a good jumper (a great jumper). Mika is a good jumper, Boyang (Yuzuru of course oh no now I'm thinking again about the latest news, oh nuooooo). Shoma jumps lots of quads, but he doesn't jump big, and he can have rather poor take off, and sometimes poor landings too. His Axel right now it's his best jump (with 4T), looking effortless and stable and he can do difficult entries and exits, but while it's a big jump for his standard, it isn't exactly a big jump per se. I really hope no coach uses those jumps and that jumping technique to teach his skaters how to jump.

 

They could also start lowering PCS when a program is barren of choreo between jumps. Lower TR and CO, but also IN. 

When a skater is disconnected with the music for a large chunk of the program because he's busy with jumps, he isn't giving a good interpretation. It's not like only step sequence or choreo sequence can count when evaluing IN, the whole program count, so if one part is outstanding and the other is abysmal,  it should be marked as "average". And a single arm movement here or there doesn't mean a skater is interpreting the music. It might fool a casual viewer that just enjoys the music and only cares about landed jumps, but not a judge. Judges seem still quite good at evaluing all of this with some skaters, so why they can't get this right when it comes to others?

Of course PCS are worth less than BV right now, but scores more in tune with what's being displayed could make the difference among top skaters, and so push them to work on that too. Right now, judges are telling (some) skaters they shouldn't care about working on pcs at all, so of course they won't work on that (unless they have some other inner motivation). Skaters would be eager to correct their strategy if judges told them they need to do more than hitting their tech to win.

 

Maybe skaters would still go for a lot of quads but they'd know that, unless they are absolutely foot perfect, they won't ever edge out the guy that goes cleanish with a BV 10-15 points lower but better overall program (thus getting higher goe and pcs). It would mean betting on others making a few mistakes, and at the same time betting on himself being flawless. Given how hard is to be flawless on so many quads, pure BV wouldn't be anymore the sounder strategy to win.

Right now, the BV strategy IS the sounder one, because goe and pcs are still awarded and they are quite generous, so the guy with lower BV has hardly any way left to close the BV gap.

 

[Sayu93]

36 minutes ago, LadyLou said:

Let's hope judges will suddenly remember to read the rulebook and check their eyesight properly before handling those +/-5 GOE.

For now, imo judging needs more fixing than rules.

I think before making any crazy change of rules themselves, they should start applying them strictly and consistently. You can't expect to fix scoring by changing rules randomly, you need to address the rules that don't work, but you can't know which rules doesn't work if you don't apply fully all the rules first.

From what we've seen thus far, it does look like limiting quads could do some good to overall programs. But no one can rule out that it is physically possible for a skater to do 7 quads while still being awesome on all the rest. i think before Sochi people would rule out that possibility with 4 quads, but we saw it is possible.

So here the problem lies in what the current scoring is saying to skaters: do a bunch of quads and you've got the win in your pocket, you just have to look like you're rotating them, I don't care if you don't do anything between them, or that you barely hang on the landing, or that you are pivoting on your blade instead than in the air.

 

(please forgive my long rambling)

 

If they started applying the no step rule, for example, we wouldn't see many quads in the SP, or at least we would see for some skaters scores that are more in the range of quadless people. A quad with no step is worth a -4, so for example a 4F would be worth less than 9 points, which is still a lot, but easier to be balanced out with spins and steps (or PCS).

If they didn't awarded goe just because the jump is difficult, we would see skaters minding more entries and exits, music, height and distance, flow. Nathan's jumps, while they can look effortless and (people tell me so) they've gotten bigger (but still not that huge), have no difficult entries, no varied arm position, no creative exit and tbh I would even say that some of them don't even really match the music, so at best they might deserve +2 but in no way they should get any +3. I don't care if 4Lz3T is the hardest combo ever, you're already getting the bv for that, if you don't hit the bullets for +3 than you don't. What is someone does a 4Lz3T out of steps, huge, matched to music, with double tano and does a SE after it? Then are we going to give the same score to two combos that are so clearly different in execution?

It look like some judges have lost sight of both what they see right now and what they still haven't seen.

Poor takeoff is worth deductions, too, and it irritates me to no end to hear Shoma's 4flip called masterclass, I'm even be a bit when someone calls him a good jumper. Nathan is a good jumper (a great jumper). Mika is a good jumper, Boyang (Yuzuru of course oh no now I'm thinking again about the latest news, oh nuooooo). Shoma jumps lots of quads, but he doesn't jump big, and he can have rather poor take off, and sometimes poor landings too. His Axel right now it's his best jump (with 4T), looking effortless and stable and he can do difficult entries and exits, but while it's a big jump for his standard, it isn't exactly a big jump per se. I really hope no coach uses those jumps and that jumping technique to teach his skaters how to jump.

 

They could also start lowering PCS when a program is barren of choreo between jumps. Lower TR and CO, but also IN. 

When a skater is disconnected with the music for a large chunk of the program because he's busy with jumps, he isn't giving a good interpretation. It's not like only step sequence or choreo sequence can count when evaluing IN, the whole program count, so if one part is outstanding and the other is abysmal,  it should be marked as "average". And a single arm movement here or there doesn't mean a skater is interpreting the music. It might fool a casual viewer that just enjoys the music and only cares about landed jumps, but not a judge. Judges seem still quite good at evaluing all of this with some skaters, so why they can't get this right when it comes to others?

Of course PCS are worth less than BV right now, but scores more in tune with what's being displayed could make the difference among top skaters, and so push them to work on that too. Right now, judges are telling (some) skaters they shouldn't care about working on pcs at all, so of course they won't work on that (unless they have some other inner motivation). Skaters would be eager to correct their strategy if judges told them they need to do more than hitting their tech to win.

 

Maybe skaters would still go for a lot of quads but they'd know that, unless they are absolutely foot perfect, they won't ever edge out the guy that goes cleanish with a BV 10-15 points lower but better overall program (thus getting higher goe and pcs). It would mean betting on others making a few mistakes, and at the same time betting on himself being flawless. Given how hard is to be flawless on so many quads, pure BV wouldn't be anymore the sounder strategy to win.

Right now, the BV strategy IS the sounder one, because goe and pcs are still awarded and they are quite generous, so the guy with lower BV has hardly any way left to close the BV gap.

 

You are absolutely right. I'd love to see this Post or sth like It on the isu forum or on their Facebook Account and the responses to it.

[axelnojutsu]

21 hours ago, LadyLou said:

(please forgive my long rambling)

 

I will not forgive it because it was echoing my sentiments toward current judging to the T so I'd rather thank you 
 

20 hours ago, Sayu93 said:

You are absolutely right. I'd love to see this Post or sth like It on the isu forum or on their Facebook Account and the responses to it.

seconded
I wish there was a way to hold judges (and the tech panel as well) accountable for blatant disregards of their own rules...

[fireovertheice]

In the meantime I checked also the protocols of the alst JO and WTT, to look at the success of 4 quads (clean lands and positive GOEs) for Nathan and Shoma. These are the conclusive remarks and the percentages >

 

In the last 10 comps (first Chall.B 2016 to last GPF) Nathan landed 1 quad in one, 2 quad in six, and 4 quads only in three. In these last the GOEs have never surpassed 2.43 and are in average about 2.00 for 4Lz and 4Lz combo, much lesser (0.50-1.80) for the other quads.
If we want to add JO 2017, Nathan landed only 2 quads with positive GOEs, initial 4Lo and the 4Lz combo.

In WTT 2017 Nathan landed 3 quads with positive GOEs, the initial 4F combo, the 4T combo and the single 4T.
TOT. success rate 10 comps x 4 quads with positive GOE: 30%;  adding JO and WTT > 25%

 

In the last 10 comps (first Chall.B 2016 to last GPF) Shoma landed 1 quad in one, 2 quad in five, 3 quad in three and 4 quads only in one (Lombardia Trophy at the beginning of this season). In this last he GOEs have never surpassed 2.00 and are in average about 0.80-1.80 for the other quads.
If we want to add JO 2017, Shoma landed only 2 quads with positive GOEs, initial 4Lo and the single 4T.

In WTT 2017 Shoma landed again only 2 quads with positive GOEs, the same initial 4Lo and the single 4T.
TOT. success rate 10 comps x 4 quads with positive GOE: 10%; adding JO and WTT > 8,3%

 

Are these success rates and quality marks so good to let think people to go easily and to skate clean and well with a 5 quads layout now ...? Maybe it would better to consolidate a 4 quads layout before to attempt something more difficult...or not?

This observation could be applied also to Yuzu, obviously (25% success rate in 8 comps + WTT if we consider the minus GOEs applied only for the 1loop/combo: 33%).

 

[Xen]

27 minutes ago, fireovertheice said:

<whole post>

 

So Yuzu might actually have the most stable arsenal of quads? It sounds as if counting WTT, he's the only one who broke 25%. 

The actual data that surprises me a bit, is that Nate's jump completion trajectory seems to go up and down in a yo-yo pattern, and it seems this season his peaking is totally off. Since he won't need that many quads at US nationals, he could try to force his peaking back to normal-unless his team is scared of Vincent Zhou marching in with 3-4 quads, but I don't think the US judges would score Zhou that favorably (Nate is the clear favorite in the US). Shoma's pattern this season is way off due to his flu, and I'm somewhat tempted to say his peak won't be hit at PC since he seems to warm up even slower than Yuzu or Nate. 

 

The other guy that seems to peak late in the season is Boyang...so him sticking with 4 quads might actually be the wisest move in the men's? If it weren't for his PCS, we would have a real sleeper there. 

[Lunna]

@LadyLou personally I agree with your points. The problem is that judges I think mostly know the rulebook well enough, why they are not applying it in every case is another question. I feel it's like unsaid rule that you can't have too low PSC if you have high TES (if you're not Boyang), like you can't have 7 for TR and 9 for IN at the same time. Even tech panel makes calls when they want which maybe even worse.

So maybe (just maybe) lowering BV of the quads isn't that bad idea after all (so a quad with mistake will receive not that much over a good triple).

In the ideal world of course judges must use the rulebook properly.

[kaeryth]

The logo for European Championships.... looks a bit weird to me

 

[xeyra]

3 hours ago, kaeryth said:

The logo for European Championships.... looks a bit weird to me

 

 

That is one weird Biellman... 

[getsurenka]

I saw a comment yesterday, which inspired my train of thought for this post. More or less the poster was saying that while the skaters who do many quads but have incorrect techniques are having an edge over the skaters who don't have as many quads now, they will find themselves at the mercy of their own federations and other federations as soon as there are stronger players coming up.

 

My personal thoughts are:

(I am kinda regretting posting it now, looking back at it, but since I already spent some time on it, I may as well post it. So here's a long rambling that none of you asked for)

 

It is a "sound" strategy for the younger skaters to add more quads in order to gain foothold in the senior circuit and fight for a place on the podium, because they have mileage on BV therefore they are able to "control their destiny" more so than the skaters that have lower BV. As long as they skate their programs somewhat cleanly (or even with a fall/pop in the midst of 4-5 quads), they will be guaranteed high BV. There is nothing wrong with this logic, per say, as figure skating is a sport. Looking at the results, I will say their strategy works, as we had seen their PCS rose steadily (some more than others) over the past seasons, regardless of whether they truly show better SS, TR, PE, CO, and IN during their programs over the season.

 

I don't begrudge them for taking this route, because they are not the first and only skaters who do that. Yuzu used a similar strategy when he first debuted in the senior circuit, because he knew what he lacked in experience, stamina, and reputation he could made up with technical difficulty (and his iron will). Objectively, it is a good strategy, because one should do what they need to do in order to gain an edge over their competitors, within reason. Competitive figure skating career is so short, that there really is no time to waste (I get it, no one trains for these quads just for the fun of it). But with that said, I really hope the young skaters are not going to be content with the performances they are currently giving. Because for many of them, once the novelty of quads are wearing off, or when they are no longer pushed by their federations, they would find themselves as the first targets for UR/pre, not having a step, wrong edges, lack of transitions etc. And that would be sad, because I entered into this figure skating world in the midst of this exciting era, where there are full of possibilities as skater, and all of these may be ruined by the ineffective judging. I find these skaters to be promising, as they may potentially become the next skater(s) to push the boundaries and have their place in history, but with the current judging, I worried more about how they push the boundaries of how a 4F or 4Lz should be executed, or how a winning program should have five or six quads with no transitions between them (and kids that is how you get that high PCS). But of course, that's not on the skaters themselves, as it is incompetent judging that enables that. But even so, I hope they will improve, and not take things as it is, however sweet it may be for them currently. 

 

I think that is what's really impressive about Yuzu's skating (among other reasons). He had made himself so impenetrable (?) that one cannot simply attacks him for his techniques, because his jumps, transitions, spins and skating skills are among the best. From the time he debuted as senior, when he was criticized heavily for his 3F, his SS, his stamina, his noodly arms..., to now when he had shown significant improvements on those elements, the critics are left with nothing to objectively criticized him on. He had went from being the "young boy that only knows how to do jumps" (not my words) to the man who arguably is best at balancing skating skills and technical difficulties into his programs. That's why the media outlets or the "experts" are left with only the subjective side of things, like his display of emotions, his interpretation, and his so-called inconsistency, to focus on. Like many people had said, Yuzuru deserves a mighty load of respect for the fact that he keeps improving, pushing boundaries even after he became the OGM, GPF champion, and WC champion. He knew his weaknesses, and he worked hard to overcome them, even when he could just chose an easier route and let his reputation carried him.

So it is quite ironic in that while the young skaters gain control by increasing their BV, they also render themselves powerless in face of a stronger federation (or politics really). While I dislike how much federations and politics play into the scores and results of a competition, you can't really blame everything on them when you consistently UR your jumps, or not follow the rules, as vague as they are. I mean, Satoko found that out fast when she was at the top of the podium in SA, and to be off the podium at GPF two weeks later.  It is unfair no matter how you look at it, to only receive a call at panel's whim, but at the same time, didn't she gave opportunity to the tech panel with her UR jumps? (I am just using an example, I really like her skating). It is unfair how Mikhail is the only one to get called on for his lack of steps preceding his jumps, while the other top contenders didn't, but didn't he make himself vulnerable to the possibility of such calls in the first place? I am not trying to defend this judging mess, because I dislike it as much as the next person here, but there are things that are out of control for the skaters (like incompetent judging and unfair calls), and there are also things within control of the skaters (jumping techniques, obeying requirements).  (Am I being too harsh? I swear I am not trying to burn them at stakes!)

  

In order to truly become closer in controlling your own fate, the most you can do as a skater is to have good techniques because they are the only thing that you can depend on. Even if you don't achieve the score or results you desire (or deserve), due to some outside reasons, at least you won't be the sacrificial lamb of the political war (without putting up some sort of a fight). Today the judges or technical panel may fall in love with you (or your fed) and reward you plenty on your strengths and close an eye to your errors, the next day they may fall in love with someone else and start taking off points on all those errors they never punished you before. As a skater you can't do anything to control that, as sad as it is, but you can at least make sure they don't punish you for what you do correctly. 

 

I hope young skaters who are watching Yuzu's performances and are inspired by him now, will inherit his figure skating's spirit and view of the perfect skate and carry it on no matter what the future may hold.

[Yatagarasu]

On 12/11/2017 at 4:36 PM, Xen said:

The other guy that seems to peak late in the season is Boyang...so him sticking with 4 quads might actually be the wisest move in the men's? If it weren't for his PCS, we would have a real sleeper there. 

 

I think he is anyway. Of course, it'll depend now on his injury, but he does have more cachet than before, with a repeat of Worlds bronze and if he can skate cleanly, plus Helsinki PCS, then he's a major threat. Especially if the event is as messy as Olys get.

 

Honestly, so many people always forget Boyang but then I don't think it's bad the way he reminds them that he exists 

[EisElle]

Sorry for the messy post, some snippets of what's been discussed in the last podcast by Ambesi and Dolfini. If it doesn't make a lot of sense it's because it's late and I'm a bit sleepy

 

Update about the question of GOE on falls and falls on jumps getting -2 and -1 instead of -3 (it was discussed in the Men GPF thread):

according to Max&Angelo, the positive features (positive goe for bullets like e.g. difficult entry, height/distance and such) shouldn't be counted, so a fall should get -3 across the board whatever happens before. As I've said in the Men's GPF thread, I don't remeber seeing the exact words "for a fall final goe must be -3" in the rulebook, while I do remember seeing a very explicit "for elements not meeting the requirements in the SP final goe must be -3" (for example solo jump not preceded by choreographic element). But I haven't read the whole handbook again, so maybe I have just missed that part, and I trust Max&Angelo on tech questions, so if that's their take I'll just accept that my half-attempt to justify the judges that gave -2 and -1 has no basis in the rules (hey, I was just trying to be good and patient with judges for once )

Angelo added that maybe a -2 could be acceptable if it's a fall on the 2nd or 3rd jump of a combo that had for example a good first jump, then it might happen.

(some judges gave Shoma's fall on 3A a couple -2 and a -1. Mika on his 4Lz got two -2. While Yuzuru got three -2 on his 3T fall of his jump combo 4T3T in his COR SP).

 

Also, about the SP solo jump preceded by choreografic element , they think the call should be on the tech panel, and I agree. It would be a sensible change of rules, because it's not about "quality of execution" but about a technical requirement, like edge of a lutz/flip or number of revolutions, and it wouldn't be a dramatic change, nor it would be hard to apply at all. Although sometimes tech panels themselves can make some very questionable calls, it's likely we could see the most neglected rule in Men's skating finally applied with a certain degree of consistency within the same competition (I don't dare to hope it could be applied consistently in different competitions )

 

And they thought there were a lot of borderline UR from both Nathan and Shoma in GPF that weren't called

 

Also, Max would pick Nathan over Shoma on SS... and Angelo said, yes yes, it’s legitimate. Now I’d really like to know more about this  I though Shoma was still better, on SS (and TR) that he displays in his competitive programs (tho I think Nathan has gorgeous SS in his EX) and people keep saying that Shoma's SS is on par with Patrick's, so....

Angelo also said Nathan has some interesting choreo and is working on that. At the moment he’s maybe the most complete US skater against those who lacks quads (like Rippon and Brown) and skaters with quads but very bad in components (Zhou, I guess Aaron too). Still his TR score was way too high for what he did.

 

And Max was very angry with people questioning their answers about GOE on falls (one ask cited "The skating protocol" as source saying positive bullets should be counted).

And Angelo said then Hanyu would get at worst 0 all the time. And Max said: there’s your proof.

(can’t disagree with that, if it were true that positive goe must count then Yuzu shouldn’t ever ever ever get a -3 on his falls. Most of the time they are also so well-timed to the music, they should count as a positive feature, creative exit. But they get -3, so...)

 

About Yuzu, they say Yuzuru will go to Olys (unless he won’t be able to skate there because injured), and Max added: what you read on forums, from 0 to 10, it counts -15 

Max added that to say Murakami, Mura, Tanaka deserve Olys more than Hanyu because they go to Nationals is nuts (this is me trying to adapt what he said: “bestialità”, which pretty much means "out of this world, crazy, idiotic, totally insane. Needs to be sent to the asylum asap". I don’t think “bestiality” really translates the word, my dictionary gives me not so apt translations...)

Max adds: here we should talk about freedom of speech, too. Don’t read certain forum...

and then he goes on ranting for a while

Sadly, he's right. I’ve read some crazy stuff in the other place about Yuzu’s oly qualification being in question, I don’t know if they enjoy spreading panic or are just idiots. I read that thread a bit bemused, because while I wanted to laugh, it was so weird to read people discuss at length of what would be a “bestialità”

 

BUT!!!!!! Max &Angelo are worried about Yuzu's recovery because ankle injuries are never easy and after sustaining an injury there is higher chance of re-injuring the ankle  (iirc Max said he has first-hand experience, he injured his ankle several times and eventually he broke it but Yuzu already had ankle problems in Nice and then iirc at 2013 Worlds too, but he kinda managed to skate all this years so I believe he can avoid reinjurying himself, if he's careful and doesn't rush with his recovery)

They hope that with the help of the best team Yuzuru will be in good shape for Olys. They don't mention the chance of Yuzu going to 4CC, they just worry about his physical recovery in time for Olys.

I think the idea of 4CC has never crossed their minds... btw I think they might be against because Yuzu might risk re-injuring himself at 4CC or strain his ankle so close to the only competition that truly matters (this is what I think that they might think, tho)...and apparently they have more faith than us in Yuzu's mental state after 4 months without competing

 

Also, Vanessa James injured her shoulder but apparently not a serious injury, J/C will just miss Nats, but will fight for a medal at Euros and possibly they might have even a chance for an oly medal.

 

 

[meoima]

1 hour ago, LadyLou said:

And they thought there were a lot of borderline UR from both Nathan and Shoma in GPF that weren't called

 

Also, Max would pick Nathan over Shoma on SS... and Angelo said, yes yes, it’s legitimate. Now I’d really like to know more about this  I though Shoma was still better, on SS (and TR) that he displays in his competitive programs (tho I think Nathan has gorgeous SS in his EX) and people keep saying that Shoma's SS is on par with Patrick's, so....

Angelo also said Nathan has some interesting choreo and is working on that. At the moment he’s maybe the most complete US skater against those who lacks quads (like Rippon and Brown) and skaters with quads but very bad in components (Zhou, I guess Aaron too). Still his TR score was way too high for what he did.

6

(1) Most quads that Nathan and Shoma did at GPF were not just borderline, they were outright UR

(2) SS: Shoma >>>> Nathan, TR: both of them weak

(3) Nathan + "gorgeous SS" = incomprehensible

(4) Saying Shoma's SS = Patrick's is an insult. Patrick uses like half of the crossovers Shoma does.