Team Russia

[rockstaryuzu]

4 hours ago, IULIANA said:

It`s kind of apples and oranges, no offense.

All I'm saying is, if anybody can get her there, it's the coaching team she has now. 

[SitTwizzle]

12 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

All I'm saying is, if anybody can get her there, it's the coaching team she has now. 

Plus now, she will have (part time) Rika Kihira and her beautiful triple Axel and her good quad Salchow (and global technique), both to get motivation and to observe.

[Katt]

I don't get the comparison between Yuzuru's 4A and Evgenia's quad because there's abig difference between them. Yuzuru has been working on 4A for years, has best 3A and excellent jump technique in general and its still a wall for him. Not saying Evgenia's quad never happen but she also has alot more thing to do with her jumps atm (slower rotational speed, UR on 3-3, inconsistent 2A). After all there's multiple skaters who said they train quad but never attempt it outside the harness. I have heard about Jason's quad since 2014, even two quad SP but after years, he hasn't landed any clean quad in competition. I will believe when I see it. 

 

[yuzupon]

2 hours ago, Katt said:

I don't get the comparison between Yuzuru's 4A and Evgenia's quad because there's abig difference between them. Yuzuru has been working on 4A for years, has best 3A and excellent jump technique in general and its still a wall for him. Not saying Evgenia's quad never happen but she also has alot more thing to do with her jumps atm (slower rotational speed, UR on 3-3, inconsistent 2A). After all there's multiple skaters who said they train quad but never attempt it outside the harness. I have heard about Jason's quad since 2014, even two quad SP but after years, he hasn't landed any clean quad in competition. I will believe when I see it. 

 

Hence the apple-orange by @IULIANA

I have a super unpopular opinion (especially unpopular on this planet) on TCC as well, so nah, I doubt either Med or Brown will get a quad. The former even more doubtful than the latter. But, eh, people can believe whatever they want.

[IULIANA]

7 minutes ago, yuzupon said:

Hence the apple-orange by @IULIANA

I have a super unpopular opinion (especially unpopular on this planet) on TCC as well, so nah, I doubt either Med or Brown will get a quad. The former even more doubtful than the latter. But, eh, people can believe whatever they want.

You and me both!

[rockstaryuzu]

4 hours ago, Katt said:

I don't get the comparison between Yuzuru's 4A and Evgenia's quad because there's abig difference between them. Yuzuru has been working on 4A for years, has best 3A and excellent jump technique in general and its still a wall for him. Not saying Evgenia's quad never happen but she also has alot more thing to do with her jumps atm (slower rotational speed, UR on 3-3, inconsistent 2A). After all there's multiple skaters who said they train quad but never attempt it outside the harness. I have heard about Jason's quad since 2014, even two quad SP but after years, he hasn't landed any clean quad in competition. I will believe when I see it. 

 

My point is, if your argument for someone not being able to get a new quad is that they're 'too old' at 20, and Yuzu's 25 and still actively pursuing new quads, then clearly the 'too old' argument is invalid. It's not about age. Jump technique - sure. If someone has to change their technique from scratch in order to get a quad, then that means their path is harder. But at the end of the day, a quad jump is about mastering the biomechanics of it. It's easier for someone small and light but that doesn't make it impossible for anyone else. And it has nothing to do with age.

[Fay]

5 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

My point is, if your argument for someone not being able to get a new quad is that they're 'too old' at 20, and Yuzu's 25 and still actively pursuing new quads, then clearly the 'too old' argument is invalid. It's not about age. Jump technique - sure. If someone has to change their technique from scratch in order to get a quad, then that means their path is harder. But at the end of the day, a quad jump is about mastering the biomechanics of it. It's easier for someone small and light but that doesn't make it impossible for anyone else. And it has nothing to do with age.

Men and women are very different in their development, though. Basically, puberty changes women's proportions and muscle/fat ratio, they rotate more slowly, they have to have bigger jumps, so that's why getting stronger technically after puberty is much harder than before. Plus the psychology also plays its tricks here - women tend to be more cautious after puberty. 

With men, they just get stronger with puberty, they gain in muscle and strength, so jumping with more power is possible for them. So gaining new jumps for men is sorta usual, for women it's a breakthrough. 

That said, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva has done it, but she's a born jumper - she's powerful, explosive and has got strong legs. Her technique on any jump is going to be stronger than with Zhenya. 

[rockstaryuzu]

2 minutes ago, Fay said:

Men and women are very different in their development, though. Basically, puberty changes women's proportions and muscle/fat ratio, they rotate more slowly, they have to have bigger jumps, so that's why getting stronger technically after puberty is much harder than before. Plus the psychology also plays its tricks here - women tend to be more cautious after puberty. 

With men, they just get stronger with puberty, they gain in muscle and strength, so jumping with more power is possible for them. So gaining new jumps for men is sorta usual, for women it's a breakthrough. 

That said, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva has done it, but she's a born jumper - she's powerful, explosive and has got strong legs. Her technique on any jump is going to be stronger than with Zhenya. 

However. Tuktik has a very womanly body overall - she has curves, she has all the things that are supposed to be drawbacks in jumping, and she still jumps. Her high muscle proportions in her legs point to a clue - because women's bodies are different, they need  more  muscle in their  hips and thighs to master the big jumps after puberty. I also think, just based on the general physics of jumps, that women overall may need to develop a different jump technique from the men, for any jump, not just quads. So, yes, it may take a while for someone to make that transition from jumping with a pre-puberty body to jumping with a post puberty one...but it can be done.

 

Zhenya's not only changed her technique but her whole body has changed as well. It takes a while for a skater to adjust to those changes. It's too soon to write her off.

[Paskud]

Well, for me it's clear that the key to 3a/quad in ladies isn't  your technique, strength in legs or height and distance, but how fast you achieve tight air position.

We saw already TINY 3As, even if with correct technique.

And muscles =/= big jumps, when even juniors are able to have big jumps.

[Fay]

56 minutes ago, Paskud said:

Well, for me it's clear that the key to 3a/quad in ladies isn't  your technique, strength in legs or height and distance, but how fast you achieve tight air position.

We saw already TINY 3As, even if with correct technique.

And muscles =/= big jumps, when even juniors are able to have big jumps.

well, you're either ultra-light and keep your weight under a certain limit (which is feasible while you're an adolescent mostly) or you get more muscly to lift off your 'average' sort of weight. Good technique comes in handy too. The ability to jump off great speed and momentum - something genuine Eteri students haven't been very good at. 

I've just watched a few Kaori videos to heal my eyes after the famous Anna Shcherbakova free skate at Skate America. I don't understand how Anna jumps and I also don't understand her GOE. But Kaori's running edge and speed is just remedy for hurting eyes. Ended up watching her skates compulsively. I don't care if she popped now and again - she's just such a pleasure to see glide over the ice. There. 

 

[yuzuangel]

Mirai learned a 3A as an adult and has had two surgeries so far because of it. Kudos to her for doing something many think of as impossible though. In many ways even though she was never a top contender, she was still one of the most inspirational skaters in Pyeongchang. But it's a long, hard road, even for Olympic glory, and I think Mirai has even said that she isn't sure if it was worth it in the end. And she was (of the ladies) probably one of the biggest success stories of learning a new element as an adult we have, yet it was still far, far from consistent.

[yuzupon]

@rockstaryuzu

I am going to lay it out this one more time, and then I am going to ignore this ...discussion, I guess, unless absolutely necessary.

 

Let's see how your reasoning holds up against ours:

 

First, you compare Yuzu and Med. Pointing out that Yuzu is older and is still trying to get 4A. (Setting aside the fact that Yuzu's jumping technique should NEVER be in the same line of comparison to most skaters', but almost least of all, Med's - it's grace and mercy to other skaters, actually, most of all to her). As @Fay has laid out, the difference in build of men and women are there, whether we like it or not. And so, from that get go, it is already not in Med's favour, this thing. And so, with arguably the same determination and hard work and under the same coaching team, Zu has these going for him which Med doesn't: being a man*, superior technique, a head start.

 

Second, you brought up Tuktamisheva. Which is fine, this time you pick a woman. But, Jesus wept, again we've pointed out, they both posses jumping techniques that are almost the opposite of each other. Tuk has been landing 3A as a teenager (as early as 12 yo in practice, altho she didn't do it in comps until 2015) and so her technique was then not impossible to regain once she adjusted to her new 'womanly' body. Med never has a great technique to begin with, so there is no technique to regain here, after the body changes. Her struggle to keep her 'fixed' 2A (let's shelf the 3Lz here, cz I began to feel sorry for her) should show you how difficult it is to correct jumping technique. 

 

Third, you brought TCC**. Sigh. This one, I am going to largely let go. But let me just say this. TCC is capable of great many things, but there are limits to what they can do. Even with Kihira being thrown into the mix, I am going again to point out that Kihira's basic jumping technique is already THERE. 

 

Find me another skater(s) who had sloppy jumping technique as a teenager, who can then upgrade their jumps after puberty, then we can talk. Med might just be one, if the skating gods listen to you. But the odds are really not in your favour. And we have valid reasons to think so.

 

ETA: @yuzuangel just pointed out Nagasu as an example of a skater learning 3A as an adult. But I would again argue that her technique as a teenager was already better than Med's. Not to mention, she gain that 3A while losing almost everything else.

 

__________

*The feminist in me died a little, but I am capable of nuance. nods to reassure self

**hostile territory, I know. Cz I for one am struggling to find a skater who was with TCC from the beginning and was able to gain and keep good jumping technique. All their world and olympic gold medallists, yes, all, was trained by other coaches first. Some coaches are more problematic than others, but even the problematic ones taught good jumping technique.

 

[yuzuangel]

I think it's been pointed out before, but 4S, 4T and 3A are very similar jumps. 3A is way more similar to 4S than a good 3S is, so I'd say Liza and Rika have a big head start in getting that quad, whereas Med -- while not impossible -- probably doesn't have a better chance than any other internationally competitive lady... Even someone like Alexia Paganini who isn't a top skater, but has huge jumps, has a better chance than Med (that is to say, both almost nil)... just IMO. (I mention Alexia because she has tried 4T in practice before.)

 

The probability of getting injured training a quad is much, much higher than learning one  

[liv]

I doubt Med gets a quad. All the reasons people have mentioned add up to that... and imho, while she's a good athlete and very accomplished skater, I just dont think she has the athleticism to go that extra step either. She's the type of athlete who went beyond through extra determination, resolve, and hard work as opposed to being a totally natural, gifted athlete.  Sometimes there is a ceiling and without the proper technique that stands up to stresses, getting the quad will be harder for her. If she proves me wrong, then good for her. I would not mind being proven wrong.  I am very supportive of any of the *older* girls proving people wrong when it comes to jumping. 

[rockstaryuzu]

In the end, time will tell. And since this discussion is getting so heated, I will leave it at that.