General Skating Chat

[vd_turnan]

I can't believe they leveled Flip and Lutz as jumps (both triples and quads). Why do that? The entry difficulty of the Lutz seems not to matter anymore. This change is in no one's favor but those who are not capable of jumping Lutz. Yuzu is not one of them, both his triple and quad are excellent. So, this is definitely not in his favor.

 

They seem to make the changes a bit clueless, they raised the BV for the quad Loop as it was not enough for it's difficulty, but lowered the BV for the Lutz to be the same as Flip, because the judges don't know/can't spot the difference between them. For Yuzu, it was like throwing him a bone with one hand and taking it with the other, as he has both these quads and they are both excellent. They should have left the Lutz the same, raise the Loop as it is more difficult and also raise the 4A, as it's the only jump for which the quad is not double in BV than the triple.

[FlyingCamel]

Idk about the difficulty of the quads cos while many skaters find 4F and 4Lz easier than 4Lo, Yuzu seems to find 4Lz harder than 4Lo? So I guess it really depends on the individual skater which one is harder for them maybe. 

[SparkleSalad]

10 hours ago, azelais said:

I feel like they're keeping 4A BV low in the same way that the International Gymnastics Federation set the value of Simone Biles' new moves low to dissuade her and other gymnasts from doing them for "safety reasons."

 

The words of Simone, "Am I in a league of my own? Yes. But that doesn’t mean you can’t credit me for what I’m doing," apply heavily to Yuzu too 

 

The difference being that the USA kicked up a HUGE public stink over this but Japan is completely silent. Biles can go out wearing "GOAT" written in crystals but any suggestion that Yuzu is the GOAT gets shot down by "you can't compare eras," and "Dick Button tho" (puh-lease, guys, your flag is showing.)

 

JSF and J media do nothing for their national treasure and just let ISU trample all over him. It's infuriating. 

 

8 hours ago, Henni147 said:

I suggest a drinking game for the next season:

 

For every 4Tq on the scoresheet we sip a quadruple Tequila.

 

I'm going to need to chug a bottle per q just to deal with this nonsense. 

[Katt]

3 hours ago, FlyingCamel said:

Idk about the difficulty of the quads cos while many skaters find 4F and 4Lz easier than 4Lo, Yuzu seems to find 4Lz harder than 4Lo? So I guess it really depends on the individual skater which one is harder for them maybe. 

The main reason is 4lz/4f are easier to cheat than 4lo and since 4lz has the highest bv, most skater go for it. 4lz is as popular as 4t/4s in the past few year, but very few of them are actual 4lz. A true 4lz is hard, because of its counter rotation. As for Yuzuru, I think his lutz technique with no prerotation make it harder for him

 

Among top men, I think this change favour Shoma the most, flutzer but do both 4lo and 4f. All ladies with flutz also benefit alot in SP (Evgenia, Kaori)

[sallycinnamon]

Everything will go down how the tech panel and judges will apply these changes, anyway I am not too optimistic as long as there is no real accountability and the technology, the tools they use remain the same.

 

-

 

New Lakernik interview on Sport Express, google translated:

 

Quote

The quad jump approach has changed

“The changes are not revolutionary,” said Alexander Lakernik, ISU Vice President, in an interview with Sport Expresss. - These are trifles that are unlikely to dramatically affect the result. The question was asked - what to do with world records? I replied - it is unlikely that these changes will greatly affect, you can continue the statistics that already existed.

 

- Let's go in order. The first and main change is the equalization in the complexity of the quadruple Lutz, Flip and Loop and the triple Lutz and triple Flip. Not everyone is happy.

 

- The technical committee concluded that at the quadruple level the standard logic about a certain hierarchy of complexity is Lutz - Flip - Loop - Salchow - Toe-loop ceases to work. It is possible that the most difficult jump is the Loop. The approaches to the Flip and Lutz have changed. They are no longer made with long arcs and have become close in technique. The athlete does not teach this or that jump because it costs more - the difference is penny. But because it’s easier for him. The 4T is easiest, it is close to the Axel. Salchow, in fact, is also not easy. But in the case of more complex jumps, we went this way - called. As for the equality of triple Flip and Lutz, these are echoes of changes for quadruples.

 

- Isn't Lutz more complicated than a Flip?

 

- Have you tried them before?

 

- I'm on the approaches to a single Axel. And then on the floor.

 

- You see. In the case of single Lutz, Flips half a century ago, this is all applicable, it is harder to jump from a long arc. Now they don’t jump like that - in the process of preparing for the jump they switch from one rib to another, and at the end they push from the desired rib. There may be different opinions: someone will support the decision, someone not. But I understand the tech. The difference in the cost of Flip and Lutz is half a point. And the difference in GOE (Score from -5 to +5, which the judges can put. - Approx. “SE”) - 10 percent, this is more than a point for each step. Now it’s more important not to jump, but how high-quality to do it. At the quadruple level, GOE becomes more important than the base cost of the jump.

- The second change is the appearance of the letter q. What is its meaning?

 

- If you followed the competitions of the last season, then you saw a lot of discrepancies in judging URs on difficult jumps. Suddenly, a strict technical team came across, and solid judging of underrotations began. I will not give the names, you see for yourself.

 

- It turns out that this is due to criticism from the FFKR?

 

- That's right, there was a negative, and you yourself know who this situation hurt. The question is not even how these shortcuts were put, but a lot was cut - but that a week later at another stage of the Grand Prix, everything changed and the attitude became loyal. Someone interpreted the same performance almost as a downgrade (Equating a jump is one revolution less. - Note “SE”), and someone as a normal jump. In single skating there are a lot of controllers and specialists, it is more difficult to bring everyone to a common denominator, unlike pair skating.

 

The tech committee went the following way: between full rotation and underrotating, they introduced an intermediate position q, underrotating exactly a quarter. Previously, a quarter was acceptable, two years ago they began to lower it and put a < for it. The calculation is that now the team will argue not between extreme situations, “carrot” and full rotation, but like this: “put a carrot” on it  or q? Q or full rotation? "There will not be less disputes, but the impact on the result will decrease. The base cost at q will remain, but the judges will lower GOE. At the same time, the assessment may even remain positive and quite high. There are no ways to resolve these disputes finally, but you can smooth them out like this.

 

- Q itself - how many degrees? Between 85 and 95?

 

- Five - ten degrees there - no one will see here. But for experienced teams, exactly a quarter of the underrotation is a convenient line, it is exactly across the arc into which it is necessary to land. The best jump is still somewhat incomplete, if the skater lands directly, he falls. 90 degrees to the trained eye is immediately visible. Now the Japanese are working on a system that will allow you to calculate the degrees of turnover in the air.

 

- Are they advancing in it?

 

- I saw in February their development that they can. Pretty interesting. If this is introduced, then the question remains, where are the borders of the underrotation and how much will it cost.

- Would you highlight something else fateful in recent changes?

 

- The rest as a whole - details for specialists. The support of the first level of complexity was simply incorrectly evaluated, there all the figures for the cost of the elements were rewritten, but this is more relevant for the beginners. Todes in pair skating - there were two costs, for inside and outside. And now there are four of them in this order - todes forward inward, backward inward, backward outward and forward outward.

I can also mention the detail that in pair skating juniors will not add complexity to the so-called transfer, a simple transfer of a partner. But these are absolutely nuances for specialists.

I would draw the attention of the fans to the SoV table itself, which was published. She is not very comfortable (?). I want to assure you that there is no difference in the base cost between 1T and 1Tq. This is done only because the same table is used for calculation by a computer. The difference will only be in the judges' assessment.

 

- A variety of jumping in figure skating - what do you think about this? Maybe just six jumps are not enough to describe all the possibilities of the skaters, and it is time to expand the table in this way?

 

- It’s easy to say, but where do you get them? Running forward axel - he is alone. Jump from the other leg - you can discuss it. But the so-called internal axel cannot be made in many revolutions. A push from the right foot inward is unlikely to be done by three and a half turns. And he is very similar to a Loop with poor execution. There are five jumps back, there is nothing to add.

There are interesting ideas that I heard from two very well versed in figure skating people. For athletes to jump in both directions. Now, if you look closely at the programs, everyone jumps either to the left or to the right. So that on both sides - I did not see, this is not encouraged by a rating scale. I also studied this, and it’s practically learning from scratch. In the late 50s there was a five-time champion of the USSR Lev Mikhailov, he jumped a double axel to the left and to the right. I personally saw it. You can move this vector, but this is just a revolution. Other champions, different skating. Reigning champions do not need this, they can lose their status. Those people who are now nobody will certainly be interested in this.

 

- And, for example, a somersault?

 

- Extreme skating is a separate view, and there is a big discussion about how much it can be crossed with figure skating. Figure skating hardly needs a heap of jumps. Spectators and so they almost do not distinguish.

 

[Henni147]

17 minutes ago, sallycinnamon said:

New Lakernik interview on Sport Express, google translated

 

"Now it’s more important not to jump, but how high-quality to do it. At the quadruple level, GOE becomes more important than the base cost of the jump."

 

I love how they emphasize the quality of elements every single time, but when it comes to Yuzu's top quality elements, they refuse to give him +5s across the board.

[Paskud]

29 minutes ago, sallycinnamon said:

There will not be less disputes, but the impact on the result will decrease. The base cost at q will remain, but the judges will lower GOE. At the same time, the assessment may even remain positive and quite high. There are no ways to resolve these disputes finally, but you can smooth them out like this.

heh....

[SparkleSalad]

Every time that man opens his mouth my forehead gets flatter. I expect it will be concave before the next Olympics.

 

[Henni147]

Come to think of it... The skater who is punished the most with these changes is Boyang actually. He is one of the very few active skaters, who can jump a true quad Lutz, which now gets devaluated and he doesn't have 4Lo or 4F in his arsenal to to compensate the punishment.

 

I'm pretty sure that in the future only die hard traditionalists will bother to learn a proper Lutz technique. The majority will go with the new excessively pre-rotated version. There is absolutely no motivation to learn the difficult Lutz technique anymore. The soul of Alois Lutz must be sobbing very hard now, wherever he is.

[sallycinnamon]

49 minutes ago, Paskud said:

heh....

 

It sounds like they won't solve the problem with it but the results will be the same with perhaps less overscoring. So that in the end the result looks less bad.

 

9 minutes ago, Henni147 said:

Come to think of it... The skater who is punished the most with these changes is Boyang actually. He is one of the very few active skaters, who can jump a true quad Lutz, which now gets devaluated and he doesn't have 4Lo or 4F in his arsenal to to compensate the punishment.

 

Yes, Boyang can be punished with the new changes the most. And skaters like Shoma or Daniel Grassl could benefit from them a lot. 

[SparkleSalad]

16 minutes ago, Henni147 said:

I'm pretty sure that in the future only die hard traditionalists will bother to learn a proper Lutz technique. The majority will go with the new excessively pre-rotated version. There is absolutely no motivation to learn the difficult Lutz technique anymore. The soul of Alois Lutz must be sobbing very hard now, wherever he is.

 

Even if they want to learn, many coaches already only teach how to cheat it.  

[Lunna]

3 часа назад, sallycinnamon сказал:

Everything will go down how the tech panel and judges will apply these changes, anyway I am not too optimistic as long as there is no real accountability and the technology, the tools they use remain the same.

 

-

 

New Lakernik interview on Sport Express, google translated:

I'm sure judging will stay the same.

The only thing I'm interested in is that Japanese program that can count rotations, if only they can show it at some comp for Japanese TV at least 

[Lunna]

1 час назад, Henni147 сказал:

I'm pretty sure that in the future only die hard traditionalists will bother to learn a proper Lutz technique. The majority will go with the new excessively pre-rotated version. There is absolutely no motivation to learn the difficult Lutz technique anymore. The soul of Alois Lutz must be sobbing very hard now, wherever he is.

I guess it all will depend on the coaches who teach young skaters, can all of them change their way of teaching technique or no?

[WinForPooh]

So I thought that the 3F and 3Lz << values were different because of table errors from ISU, which has happened, but now it looks like it's not? DG jumps get BVs corresponding to the lower no of rotation version of the same jump, so the 2F and 2Lz have different BVs, so the 3F and 3Lz DGs will have different BVs despite 3F and 3Lz having the same BV, what on earth kind of sense does this make?

[WinForPooh]

I mean even accepting everything they've said and done till now, how does it make sense that two jumps with same BV have the same error and end up with different BVs?