General Skating Chat

[monchan]

Is Yuna Kim the ONLY single skater in history so far to be never off podium? (only count from when GPs started, cuz before that there were too few comps, like Dick Button was never off podium too but he only skated 1/2 comps per year so I don't think it would be valid).

 

I've tried to search with big names as far back into history as I can rmb but there's no one. Plus I don't know when NHK, SC etc. even started so I'm not so sure.

[river]

The GP series started in 1995, so I've started looking then. At the very least, nobody else who has won a GP event (and is not making their senior debut this year, because that's just not enough data for a meaningful comparison) has managed to never finish off the podium. So far, I haven't found anyone other than Yuna.

 

Plushy's consistency is a marvel to behold, though. In all of his competitive career, he finished off the senior podium five times: RusNats 95-96 and 96-97, Cup of Russia 96, Finlandia 96, and WC 2000. All of that in a career spanning (albeit not consecutively) almost twenty years.

[rockstaryuzu]

On 11/8/2019 at 2:05 AM, Old Cat Lady said:

When I first heard about the artistic and technical program split, just like most of the fandom, I thought it was so stupid.  but the more I think about it, I'm warming up to it.  If it's the way @KatjaThera described it, it doesn't seem like it would be that different from the SP vs. FS.  The "technical" program would be jump heavy, like the FS already is.  The "artistic" program would limit the ability to win by pure BV and provide relatively greater reward to quality of skating, like the SP already does.  Both would contain aspects of both, but weight certain aspects more heavily.  

 

Theoretically, this provides a more competitive format for skaters like Brown and would be a good avenue for more experienced skaters who may be losing their jumps but peaking in other aspects.  And older ladies won't have to be pushed out of the sport every few years when their bodies no longer allow them to keep up with the baby quadsters.  Ladies will actually have enough time to develop into complete skaters and build a relationship with the audience.  We don't have to constantly make drastic changes depending on whether high tech or skating quality is the flavor of the month.  In the men's thread we're discussing the impact of multiple quads on the body - skaters will then have a choice in how much wear and tear they're willing to put their body through.  

 

This also means that dying elements can get a chance to be revitalized in the sport.  I would love for a MITF requirement to be added back into skating.  They're one of the best tests of edge quality, control, and body line.  And skaters won't have to choose between actual skating vs. mugging/posing and bad dancing (which is apparently what the choreo seq currently rewards)

I dunno. You could just as easily make an argument for the return of traditional school figures.  Those were all about control and edge quality and were heavily weighted in the scores too, to the point that lackluster performers would win based on their skill in figures. 

 

I personally think that if the ISU would just GET SPECIFIC with their technical requirements for certain elements and enforce those requirements, to the point of penalizing judges that don't judge by the rulebook, the IJS or the current system would be sufficient and they wouldn't have to make any drastic changes, other than dropping the 0.8 factor they artificially tack on to women's scores for no good reason whatsoever. 

 

 

[monchan]

11 hours ago, river said:

The GP series started in 1995, so I've started looking then. At the very least, nobody else who has won a GP event (and is not making their senior debut this year, because that's just not enough data for a meaningful comparison) has managed to never finish off the podium. So far, I haven't found anyone other than Yuna.

 

Plushy's consistency is a marvel to behold, though. In all of his competitive career, he finished off the senior podium five times: RusNats 95-96 and 96-97, Cup of Russia 96, Finlandia 96, and WC 2000. All of that in a career spanning (albeit not consecutively) almost twenty years.

Yeah I checked through Plushenko too and his consistency on the podium (given his incredibly long career) is so impressive. GP series started since 1995 but SC and NHK started around 1970s, there were other non-GP comps around that time too. I'm not sure about big names then (except Katarina Witt, Brian Orser lol), but even they still finished off podium sometimes. 

 

To never finish off podium now is unimaginable thou, the field is just too deep, so your career is either very short or you only compete in small comps to be never off podium. Medvedeva could've achieved that feat if she'd retired after PC (only ISU comps counted ofc), but she continued and you see how hard it is to stay competitive. It's impossible to just YOLO to Worlds/Olympic like Yuna after Vancouver. Thou Trusova is kinda potential, let's see how she's doing.

 

Btw how do you guys feel about the depth of current ladies and men's field compared to the past. I'm not talking about how skating evolved, just relative results of skaters. I would say ladies field is 100x deeper now compared to Caro-Yuna-Mao era. Men's doesn't increase that much. The last quad (2014-2018) was deeper than now, we might need a few more years for young talents to go senior.

[Old Cat Lady]

7 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

I dunno. You could just as easily make an argument for the return of traditional school figures.  Those were all about control and edge quality and were heavily weighted in the scores too, to the point that lackluster performers would win based on their skill in figures. 

 

I personally think that if the ISU would just GET SPECIFIC with their technical requirements for certain elements and enforce those requirements, to the point of penalizing judges that don't judge by the rulebook, the IJS or the current system would be sufficient and they wouldn't have to make any drastic changes, other than dropping the 0.8 factor they artificially tack on to women's scores for no good reason whatsoever. 

 

 

 

Of course, no matter what system, clarity, consistency, and accountability are ideal and necessary for legitimacy.

 

Outside of even more tiresome political talk, I'm personally not against figures coming back or being a separate event, nor does it bother me if people who win them aren't good performers since that's not what's being tested.  It tests a whole different set of skills than what current figure skating is so it is almost an entire different event - sort of like the way balance beam and uneven bars require very different skills to excel.  At the very least, figures (and synchro) being separate medal winning events makes more sense than the farce of a team event that we currently have.  But if someone were able to medal in figures, artistic, and technical program, they really would be deserving of an "all around" title.

 

However, figures would not revive a lot of the lost skating elements unless they change the rules to require them (and at which point, it isn't really figures anymore) and is not an answer to one issue that the "artistic" event is meant to help with - which is viewer popularity. The likelihood is that only medalists in figures would even get televised - probably only gold medalists and whoever's from your country.  And if it becomes a requirement for regular competition again, it would also hold back technical development, which is the other big audience appeal factor of the sport (not that I personally would miss it, but it is important for a certain faction of the audience, making it important from the ISU perspective)

 

A large part of me wonders if the real motivation behind the separate artistic/technical events is just for more medal mongering at the Olympics.  When looking from the ISU perspective as well as skater benefit, it makes sense.  The Olympics is the stage in which the sport gets the most exposure so it might help increase popularity and more skaters would benefit more from their lifetime of hard work.  However, it just "feels" wrong to me - like it cheapens the medal, but that's not a rational reason 

[rockstaryuzu]

1 hour ago, Old Cat Lady said:

 

Of course, no matter what system, clarity, consistency, and accountability are ideal and necessary for legitimacy.

 

Outside of even more tiresome political talk, I'm personally not against figures coming back or being a separate event, nor does it bother me if people who win them aren't good performers since that's not what's being tested.  It tests a whole different set of skills than what current figure skating is so it is almost an entire different event - sort of like the way balance beam and uneven bars require very different skills to excel.  At the very least, figures (and synchro) being separate medal winning events makes more sense than the farce of a team event that we currently have.  But if someone were able to medal in figures, artistic, and technical program, they really would be deserving of an "all around" title.

 

However, figures would not revive a lot of the lost skating elements unless they change the rules to require them (and at which point, it isn't really figures anymore) and is not an answer to one issue that the "artistic" event is meant to help with - which is viewer popularity. The likelihood is that only medalists in figures would even get televised - probably only gold medalists and whoever's from your country.  And if it becomes a requirement for regular competition again, it would also hold back technical development, which is the other big audience appeal factor of the sport (not that I personally would miss it, but it is important for a certain faction of the audience, making it important from the ISU perspective)

 

A large part of me wonders if the real motivation behind the separate artistic/technical events is just for more medal mongering at the Olympics.  When looking from the ISU perspective as well as skater benefit, it makes sense.  The Olympics is the stage in which the sport gets the most exposure so it might help increase popularity and more skaters would benefit more from their lifetime of hard work.  However, it just "feels" wrong to me - like it cheapens the medal, but that's not a rational reason 

Well, when they had them, figures were never televised except in very short recaps as a way to explain why this or that skater was already in high standing even before the televised portion of the competition began. And they were discarded entirely and solely as a way to make the sport more appealing and television friendly, so bringing back either figures or anything else that smacks of them would be counter-productive, to my mind. I think the current format of competition is actually the most television-friendly version of the sport they can come up with, and that any changes are going to roll the sport backwards. 

 

 

Having separate 'artistic' and 'technical' programs only works if the content for the technical is set, like the way RD is set in ice dance. Requiring all the competitors to follow the exact same layout, in other words. That way you can honestly say that judges are comparing apples to apples. But who wants to watch that? Imagine two hours straight of 3A 4T 4S quad combo camel spin sit spin StSeq spread eagle spiral layback or A spin lather rinse repeat. 

 

I agree with your suspicion that it's all about medal-mongering and I think it's a cheap trick. 

[sallycinnamon]

RusFed will submit a proposal to the next ISU Congress that would allow quadruples in ladies SP

 

https://rsport.ria.ru/20191112/1560838518.html

translation:

 

Quote

Alexander Gorshkov, president of the Russian Figure Skating Federation, said the federation had asked the International Skating Union to consider allowing quadruple jumps in the ladies short programs.
The ISU Congress will be held in the summer of 2020 in Thailand.
"Our federation has initiated consideration of the issue of allowing quadruple jumps in the short program for ladies," Gorshkov said at a press conference.
"The change in the technical rules is as follows: proposals are sent until September, which our federation did. We are waiting for a response from the technical committee, which should follow before the start of the congress," added Alexander Kogan, director general of the federation.

 

--

 

I don't think other feds will vote for this proposal no matter how much RusFed wants it. It would mean the gap between those who have quads and who doesn't have quads will be even bigger and other feds other than the Russian wouldn't want it.

[shanshani]

 

major eyeroll

 

this is even worse than Tom Z

[Paskud]

1 hour ago, sallycinnamon said:

RusFed will submit a proposal to the next ISU Congress that would allow quadruples in ladies SP

 

https://rsport.ria.ru/20191112/1560838518.html

translation:

 

 

--

 

I don't think other feds will vote for this proposal no matter how much RusFed wants it. It would mean the gap between those who have quads and who doesn't have quads will be even bigger and other feds other than the Russian wouldn't want it.

Plot twist: US fed will agree because Alyssa.

[caterpillar]

24 minutes ago, shanshani said:

 

major eyeroll

 

this is even worse than Tom Z

 

The audacity...

And “inconsistencies in judging of several of our athletes” - they’re not even pretending to care about fair judging here, only angry that for once the tech panel kind of did its job in regards to their skaters. And not only was every single one of those calls justified, but their skaters still finished one and two!

God I’m so angry, what is this fucking sport? 

[Old Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, rockstaryuzu said:

Well, when they had them, figures were never televised except in very short recaps as a way to explain why this or that skater was already in high standing even before the televised portion of the competition began. And they were discarded entirely and solely as a way to make the sport more appealing and television friendly, so bringing back either figures or anything else that smacks of them would be counter-productive, to my mind. I think the current format of competition is actually the most television-friendly version of the sport they can come up with, and that any changes are going to roll the sport backwards. 

 

 

Having separate 'artistic' and 'technical' programs only works if the content for the technical is set, like the way RD is set in ice dance. Requiring all the competitors to follow the exact same layout, in other words. That way you can honestly say that judges are comparing apples to apples. But who wants to watch that? Imagine two hours straight of 3A 4T 4S quad combo camel spin sit spin StSeq spread eagle spiral layback or A spin lather rinse repeat. 

 

I have no issue with figures not being popular for viewership.  Most Olympic sports are not popular.  If it was an added event without taking away from anything else, it wouldn't detract from other events while adding to the careers of skaters who don't currently get rewarded under the current system.  At worst, it's stagnating rather than being counterproductive.  At best, it helps promote the sport because suddenly more people in the sport can be competitive and an Olympic medal is one of the biggest growers of a sport.

 

The little I heard about the artistic and technical program, is that there is merely more of an emphasis on certain aspects of the sport in one vs the other rather than a complete exclusion of half the sport.  We already have required elements in all phases of sport so not sure why this makes a difference for the sport's appeal. Like I said, it sounds like it's structured sort of like the SP vs. FS today except a little more extreme with PCS being weighted differently.  

 

1 hour ago, sallycinnamon said:

RusFed will submit a proposal to the next ISU Congress that would allow quadruples in ladies SP

 

https://rsport.ria.ru/20191112/1560838518.html

translation:

 

 

--

 

I don't think other feds will vote for this proposal no matter how much RusFed wants it. It would mean the gap between those who have quads and who doesn't have quads will be even bigger and other feds other than the Russian wouldn't want it.

I don't see anyone outside of Russia voting for this either unless they make deals with Feds that have little to no chance in the ladies field.  On principle, with the way skating is today,  I don't really see a legitimate sporting reason to ban quads in the short unless they want to limit tech in general for all disciplines with the intent of rewarding quality in one phase while rewarding technical progression in the LP.  It doesn't make sense to have different standards for men vs. women and I would also equalize the PCS factorizing between genders. 

 

I personally would actually like to see them simplifying the SP and having required jumps like in juniors - this way, people can't hide their weaknesses their whole career and truly complete skaters can get more of a reward.

 

Though from a viewership perspective, banning the quads makes sense because the limited tech in the SP is the only thing that let's people continue to pretend that non-quadsters are competitive

[Old Cat Lady]

6 minutes ago, Paskud said:

Plot twist: US fed will agree because Alyssa.

 

I think this works against Alyssa.  The only advantage she has over the Russian quadsters is the point gap (and subsequent momentum) she can create with her 3 axel in the short. 

[shanshani]

tbh if I were an ISU official I'd play it a bit mercenary and refuse to vote to allow quads in the SP unless excessive PR is defined as an error with an automatic penalty

[mercedes]

3 hours ago, sallycinnamon said:

RusFed will submit a proposal to the next ISU Congress that would allow quadruples in ladies SP

 

https://rsport.ria.ru/20191112/1560838518.html

translation:

 

 

--

 

I don't think other feds will vote for this proposal no matter how much RusFed wants it. It would mean the gap between those who have quads and who doesn't have quads will be even bigger and other feds other than the Russian wouldn't want it.

Well especially because some of those who have quads are still beatable without them .on the other  side by the time the proposal may be accepted more girls will jump those and the field will be more levelled.

2 hours ago, caterpillar said:

 

The audacity...

And “inconsistencies in judging of several of our athletes” - they’re not even pretending to care about fair judging here, only angry that for once the tech panel kind of did its job in regards to their skaters. And not only was every single one of those calls justified, but their skaters still finished one and two!

God I’m so angry, what is this fucking sport? 

The shame really ,for once a TP called a technical element properly ,but ISU is to blame about this once again when for years they haven’t called a single fluzt and they let the over scoring happening .

About lutz there’s a very interesting Twitter by Ambesi And his theory of why all of a sudden everybody is jumping it

 

[Henni147]

7 hours ago, caterpillar said:

The audacity...

And “inconsistencies in judging of several of our athletes” - they’re not even pretending to care about fair judging here, only angry that for once the tech panel kind of did its job in regards to their skaters. And not only was every single one of those calls justified, but their skaters still finished one and two!

God I’m so angry, what is this fucking sport? 

 

If they added "In our opinion multiple Russian and US skaters received highly inflated scores compared with skaters from other feds", well then I would clap.

 

 

EDIT: To the quad discussion: I have some hypotheses that need to be verified:

 

1. A 4Lz with 0° pre-rotation, deep outside edge and clean toe assist is harder to do than a quadruple Flutzberger (4Fzb).

2. A 4Lo is harder to do than a 4Fzb, but about same level of difficulty as a 0PR+DOE 4Lz.

3. A 4F with 0° pre-rotation, slight inside edge and clean toe assist is harder to do than a quadruple Floop (4Flo),
    but a bit easier than a 4Lo or 0PR+DOE 4Lz.

4. A 4S is harder to do than a 4T, but easier than a 0PR+SIE 4F.

5. A quad Axel is MUCH harder to do than any of the jumps mentioned above.

 

 

Double EDIT:

Here's a compilation of pretty much every skater, who landed a 4Lz or a jump labeled as 4Lz already:

(Yuzu's outward toe-picking and 0° PR is such a miracle... I have no clue how he does it, but it would be a gift to the skating world, if it returned to competition)

 

 

 

Triple EDIT:

This is a translation of a very interesting post on a Russian forum regarding the different 4Lz techniques: