General Skating Chat

[Yume]

17 minutes ago, Yuazz said:

When there's high technology these days I think they could minimalize the subjectivity and make it more objective. But the judges and ISU just being old fashioned and refuse the technology i guess 🙃

See football. Seems a pretty objective sport. You score more goals you win. But there is the referee. He/she can change the result by giving a red card that he shouldn't have, grant a goal that he shouldn't have. FIFA got the VAR to solve the problem. Just that they let the last word to the referee who can choose to grant a goal while the whole stadium saw like him that there was an offside. And some shit still hapenned at the last world cup.

So as long as human is involved, there will be shit in sport.

[anski]

38 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

Well, actually, if we're on this train: I don't think figure skating, ballet, dancesport etc. etc. should be Olympic sports.

Would you mind me asking why? 

31 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

Do gymnastics and diving have this extent of a problem? I don't watch so can't say.

Gymnastics does, especially rhythmic. It’s in a similar situation as FS. I don’t know about diving tho.

[Figure_Frenzy]

4 hours ago, fireovertheice said:

 A harcore fan on another platform (but you can find the quote somewhere in twitter also), with other people essentially agreeing with it.

 

...damn, I thought that was T*mZ quote?? 😛

[Vulnavia]

20 hours ago, Figure_Frenzy said:

[admin edit: not appropriate]

 

I feel that way too sometimes and I'm American. But trust me, there are many knowledgeable American skating fans who can clearly see all of the nonsense with USFS and US media for exactly what it is. I can't even count how many times I've seen comments from longtime American fans of skating saying that they're fed up with what's been going on and that they're planning to stop following the sport once Yuzu retires. 

[starcaption]

3 hours ago, Flutterby said:

The same goes for Jason. I love his skating but he needs quads to stay relevant.

 

I didn't watch his free skate at world's (well I tried, and then got bored), but do you know if he had nailed everything, would he have had a chance at bronze?

 

Re Olympic sport

What makes a sport an Olympic sport? I have friends who don't even consider these judged "activities" sports because there is no clear winner.. 

[Figure_Frenzy]

2 minutes ago, Vulnavia said:

 

I feel that way too sometimes and I'm American. But trust me, there are many knowledgeable American skating fans who can clearly see all of the nonsense with USFS and US media for exactly what it is. I can't even count how many times I've seen comments from longtime American fans of skating saying that they're fed up with what's been going on and that they're planning to stop following the sport once Yuzu retires. 

 

Thank you for your comment, I definitely need this reminder... 

[hoodie axel]

18 minutes ago, anski said:

Would you mind me asking why? 

Well, the judging can be cooked too easily. I don't believe the artistic aspects (and the way the sport has been developed means up to this point indeed means the "PCS" aspects (PE/CO/IN in particular) to the sport are artistic, no matter who may deny it) are sooooo very hard to judge, if there are actual informed and trained opinions being flung around instead of "feelings", but there's a smokescreen of judging based off just "preferences", as if something inferior can be placed first because you "prefer" it.

 

I also think it should be entirely discarded as a sport and be considered an art form. I think it would help technique. To this I look to ballet, where the kids spend years trying to perfect technique, because indeed it helps to prevent injuries -- something that is extremely concerning is the shoddy technique merely being taught to "get ahead" currently. The "PCS" aspects of the sport will be emphasis, both as a consequence and as a requirement. Innovative transitions would still be present. People might slow down on quads if it's an art form, but on the other hand those who lack the resources to master the "PCS" aspects can still be learning exciting tricks like quads to make themselves marketable, for instance, till they find the resources to become great at PCS, too. Psst... it's not that different from what's happening currently! The judges are merely sitting in front of an idiot-box. Just that half the audience won't be losing its minds, and would just be enjoying.

[sallycinnamon]

19 minutes ago, starcaption said:

 

I didn't watch his free skate at world's (well I tried, and then got bored), but do you know if he had nailed everything, would he have had a chance at bronze?

 

 

Theoretically yes - I counted a 4S with 0 GOE + a clean solo 3A + clean 3A-2T combo + StSq level 4 + 92 PCS = around 29/30 points, which would have put him ahead of Vincent by 1-2 points.

But since his 4S is very inconsistent even during practices, practically it wasn't really possible.

[Vulnavia]

7 minutes ago, Figure_Frenzy said:

 

Thank you for your comment, I definitely need this reminder... 

 

Believe me, I get it. I mean, I would love to be able to watch my own country's skating coverage! But I can't because it's such a mess. And it's not even just about Nathan. I watched the NBC coverage of the Skate America ladies event because they showed the free live and I wanted to see Satoko, and the commentators were going on and on about Bradie and how she's so consistent and never makes mistakes, and Tara kept saying she was the favorite to win. Meanwhile, I'm sitting there wondering if Satoko and Kaori missed their flight from Japan, because that's the only way Bradie should have ever been considered the favorite considering that they were the reigning SA gold and silver medalists and that Satoko had beaten Bradie comfortably at both the Olympics and Worlds the previous season. Johnny even went so far as to make a snarky comment at the beginning of Satoko's performance about how she's prone to URs 'but the tech caller today is Japanese, so...', basically implying that if she didn't get any UR calls it would be because the tech caller was biased. They also hadn't done any research and didn't know that Satoko had been working on her jumps with Ghislain during the off season, so they were shocked when her jumps looked better at that competition. So they disrespected both Japanese skaters AND set Bradie up to fail, because Bradie made some mistakes and ended up in 4th, which wasn't a terrible result for her especially given that she was trying the 3lz3lo combo for the first time, but casual viewers who trust what the commentators are saying thought that she was supposed to win so it seemed like a total flop to them. 

 

...and I just wrote a whole rant about something that I'm not sure is even fully relevant to this thread. I blame the negative influence of US skating shenanigans 

[Yuazz]

44 minutes ago, Yume said:

See football. Seems a pretty objective sport. You score more goals you win. But there is the referee. He/she can change the result by giving a red card that he shouldn't have, grant a goal that he shouldn't have. FIFA got the VAR to solve the problem. Just that they let the last word to the referee who can choose to grant a goal while the whole stadium saw like him that there was an offside. And some shit still hapenned at the last world cup.

So as long as human is involved, there will be shit in sport.

I see... At least they tried to make an improvement by applying the high tech.  human will always be involved in the competition because they're the one who compete and they also the one who decided who wins eventho some sport judged by who's the one gets the finish first or the one who jumps higher or further, etc. Still human will be the one who decides the winner. I still hope ISU applied some high tech in FS to minimalize the biases and accepts critiques if they still want people to see this sport as a fair sport. If there are so many people voicing their frustrations about the biased in judgment so there are something really wrong with the judges or probably the rules and they should consider to make an improvements and corrections. 

[Sombreuil]

FIFA tried very hard to resist tech in football - without the poverty excuse that ISU and FIG trotted out...

[Old Cat Lady]

8 minutes ago, sallycinnamon said:

 

Theoretically yes - I counted a 4S with 0 GOE + a clean solo 3A + clean 3A-2T combo + StSq level 4 + 92 PCS = around 29/30 points, which would have put him ahead of Vincent by 1-2 points.

But since his 4S is very inconsistent even during practices, practically it wasn't really possible.

 

Judging by the protocols, everything was a mess that day.  Lost levels everywhere and GOE's well below his normal.  Of course, I don't trust protocols anymore and I hate that program too much to check.  I tried it with him getting -3 on 4s< (let's be honest, that thing is just a bluff at this point so that's probably the best we can hope for), hitting all his levels, same PCS as SP 92.3, and he ended up with 284.05 combined, putting him 2.89 ahead of Vincent.

 

I was okay with the men's results at first but then I actually did a re-score and now I'm pissed.  I was going to go through and break down exactly what was all in the programs (crossovers, seconds of prep, transition elements, possibly air time though I don't know how to use any sophisticated software so probably not) as that's the only objective measure.  Anyone happen to do anything like this already before I put myself through this misery?  

[hoodie axel]

2 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

Anyone happen to do anything like this already before I put myself through this misery?  

I had

 

1. Chen (1/2)

2. Hanyu (2/1)

3. Jin (8/4) (I formerly put him at 3rd in the LP, but on rewatch, Kolyada is definitely better than him)

 

I have Kolyada, Uno, Jin, and Zhou very close though. Can justify any being third, for me.

[anski]

44 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

Well, the judging can be cooked too easily. I don't believe the artistic aspects (and the way the sport has been developed means up to this point indeed means the "PCS" aspects (PE/CO/IN in particular) to the sport are artistic, no matter who may deny it) are sooooo very hard to judge, if there are actual informed and trained opinions being flung around instead of "feelings", but there's a smokescreen of judging based off just "preferences", as if something inferior can be placed first because you "prefer" it.

 

I also think it should be entirely discarded as a sport and be considered an art form. I think it would help technique. To this I look to ballet, where the kids spend years trying to perfect technique, because indeed it helps to prevent injuries -- something that is extremely concerning is the shoddy technique merely being taught to "get ahead" currently. The "PCS" aspects of the sport will be emphasis, both as a consequence and as a requirement. Innovative transitions would still be present. People might slow down on quads if it's an art form, but on the other hand those who lack the resources to master the "PCS" aspects can still be learning exciting tricks like quads to make themselves marketable, for instance, till they find the resources to become great at PCS, too. Psst... it's not that different from what's happening currently! The judges are merely sitting in front of an idiot-box. Just that half the audience won't be losing its minds, and would just be enjoying.

Ahhh, I understand your take. To me fs, ballet and rhythmic gymnastics for example are both an art and a sport and while I agree that technical perfection should always be an aim I do see that as part of the sport... but judging systems are so incredibly flawed 

[WinForPooh]

3 hours ago, Yuazz said:

I see... At least they tried to make an improvement by applying the high tech.  human will always be involved in the competition because they're the one who compete and they also the one who decided who wins eventho some sport judged by who's the one gets the finish first or the one who jumps higher or further, etc. Still human will be the one who decides the winner. I still hope ISU applied some high tech in FS to minimalize the biases and accepts critiques if they still want people to see this sport as a fair sport. If there are so many people voicing their frustrations about the biased in judgment so there are something really wrong with the judges or probably the rules and they should consider to make an improvements and corrections. 

 

In football, referees also have to write up the match. They have to do a report after every game, where they explain their calls. There are ways to appeal red cards after a game so that the three-game ban can be questioned. Referees come under review after particularly horrible days and are demoted to lower league games for a period of time, and if there's a matchfixing or bribery scandal, there are actual punishments.

 

I can't believe that I'm pointing out good things about football refereeing system because boy does it drive me mad every week, and I do certainly believe there should be more accountability, but at least there is some accountability! SOME! There's none in figure skating except to their own federations! That is a batshit crazy setup by any metric!