General Skating Chat

[hoodie axel]

48 minutes ago, moonkat said:

Cause there's no time for it? Perhaps he tried correcting technique with Elizabet.

You mean for next season? I guess.

30 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

 

I'm guessing:

 

1. It may be easier to add a rotation than to fix basic takeoff technique. I can see that a skater may actually find it easier to do a quad than to go back to jumping basics after a lifetime of muscle memory. 

2. In the end, there are ladies doing quads and getting full credit for them with equally not-ideal technique. Unfortunately not every skater has the legacy, the financial backing, and the fanbase to focus on things that don't get awarded by the judges if funding/sponsorship/spots/opportunities are once in a lifetime and gone in a flash if they do not win medals. Not to mention, the health to do so. Yuzu is a one in a million here, IMO. 

3. If Medvedeva learns a quad even with PR and UR I think it will help with her issues on her triple. Just like I'm sure she can jump a double toe with not much PR by itself, if she can get a consistent 4T then it would probably improve lift/rotation with her 3T.

4. The jumps you posted are all combinations. Her 3S is a little bit better than that on its own, but she needs to keep it low to control the landing for her 3Lo. So yeah, I think she can get more height than that.

5. Medvedeva is basically forced to add quads if she's skating for Russia. Quads or perish, basically.

I think 5. from you and moonkat is likely the real reason. But 2 is also true and unfortunate.

 

1. There have been attempts with the 2A, though. I think her solo jumps (in competition) still look forced a little, so it's weird they're already jumping quads in practice and thinking about adding one?

3. Her 2Ts are actually not great She does her 3F+2T+2T in that video.  But yes, maybe it will help in lift.

4. Her lack of tanos is certainly helping, but still a little forced, IMO. Her legs still seem a little heavy and thudding as she tries to vault, but maybe it will get there in the off-season? Her solo 3S does look better in practice, it is true.

 

34 minutes ago, Yume said:

Something tells me that next season URed quads will be judged with the same amount of leniency than flutzes (or flat edge lutzes) at worlds.

 

I think so, too. I really hope not, though.

[Yume]

I think there are more chances for a 4S than a 4T. Her toe-loops look heavy. When she was doing 2A-2T-2T, it looked like the hardest combo she ever done. So yeah maybe 4S, even of i think that it will be URed most of the time, if not everytime.

[yuzuangel]

I agree, I think Med's 2A HAS improved but in practice, not in competition, yet. It's clear she gets nervous in competition so she reverts back to her old technique; maybe given time, the changes she made in practice will "stick." (Same with the 3S.) 

 

ETA: either way I'm really excited for all these layout upgrades next season regardless. It's a bit boring to see 3Lz-3T be the hardest element, and 7 triples, every time XD

[liv]

On 4/1/2019 at 8:48 AM, Old Cat Lady said:

 

I think the IceScope should be used as an aide to judging.  I forget who, but someone suggested that if a skater doesn't reach a predetermined height/distance, the 4 and 5 buttons automatically disappear.

 

 

 

I can see this because you have to somehow account for someone being able to jump higher/farther than other people because that is indicative of a certain level of athleticism... (or we wouldn't have high jump or long jump as sport)

 

Like for men, from what we know now about their general 3axel heights: above 65 cm for height could be given a level 5, above 60 a level 4 and below 60 a level 3.... I always thought levels 4 and 5 were supposed to show that you are really, really good at an element and yet we see them give those levels to people with smaller jumps.. and you can't say they were jumped lower because of difficult steps into entry because the gold standard is Yuzu who achieved the best height and distance despite doing a difficult entry. He (and others, like Boyang's 4lutz) really should be rewarded for that... it is an athletic achievement that is measurable and not subject to a judge's personal opinion...

 

and nobody should argue that a skater's stature makes a difference... remember how short Midori was and I recall reading that she jumped her 3axels in the 65cm range, and Keegan Messing is not a big guy either yet manages to really get up there too...

 

anyway, i hope they do figure out some way to incorporate this technology...

 

 

[kaeryth]

Skate Canada 2019 ticket info out.

 

KELOWNA, B.C.: All-event tickets for the 2019 Skate Canada International will go on sale to the public on April 5, 2019 at 10 a.m. PT.

The event will take place in Kelowna, British Columbia, at Prospera Place from October 25-27, 2019.

 

All-event ticket packages will include all competitions, as well as practices. Fans will be able to choose from four levels of all-event ticket packages that are priced at:

• $138.50 ($120 ticket + $18.50 venue fee)
• $180.50 ($160 ticket + $20.50 venue fee)
• $222.00 ($200 ticket + $22.00 venue fee)
• $325.00 ($300 ticket + $25.00 venue fee)

[hoodie axel]

8 hours ago, liv said:

Like for men, from what we know now about their general 3axel heights: above 65 cm for height could be given a level 5, above 60 a level 4 and below 60 a level 3.... I always thought levels 4 and 5 were supposed to show that you are really, really good at an element and yet we see them give those levels to people with smaller jumps.. and you can't say they were jumped lower because of difficult steps into entry because the gold standard is Yuzu who achieved the best height and distance despite doing a difficult entry. He (and others, like Boyang's 4lutz) really should be rewarded for that... it is an athletic achievement that is measurable and not subject to a judge's personal opinion... 

I agree that difficult entries that end up affecting the height shouldn't get away with it (unless the height is still good of course). I do wonder what kind of range of "effect" is acceptable, and also timing in the program matters. Someone doing an OK 3A first off in the program compared to someone doing it very late in the program, out of transitions is different. Ito doing her 3A 3 minutes into the 1992 Olympics LP, and still keeping it fairly massive is deserving of +6 GOE. Entries also sometimes mess up the air position, which should be another deduction.

[Old Cat Lady]

On 4/3/2019 at 5:41 PM, liv said:

Like for men, from what we know now about their general 3axel heights: above 65 cm for height could be given a level 5, above 60 a level 4 and below 60 a level 3.... I always thought levels 4 and 5 were supposed to show that you are really, really good at an element and yet we see them give those levels to people with smaller jumps.. and you can't say they were jumped lower because of difficult steps into entry because the gold standard is Yuzu who achieved the best height and distance despite doing a difficult entry. He (and others, like Boyang's 4lutz) really should be rewarded for that... it is an athletic achievement that is measurable and not subject to a judge's personal opinion...

 

The main reason I think the 4 & 5 buttons should be disabled upon not reaching the designated height is because the rules say that any jump without height & distance shouldn't get higher than 3.  Overcoming the first 3 bullets makes a huge difference in the score so judges ignoring that part of the guidelines is the biggest influencer of the outcome.

 

15 hours ago, hoodie axel said:

 Someone doing an OK 3A first off in the program compared to someone doing it very late in the program, out of transitions is different. Ito doing her 3A 3 minutes into the 1992 Olympics LP, and still keeping it fairly massive is deserving of +6 GOE. Entries also sometimes mess up the air position, which should be another deduction.

 

Unfortunately too many of the bullets are subjective to ever completely replace human judges but the ISU can do a lot to reduce corruption/human error by removing a lot of the control from the judges hands.  I don't think it would be that hard for skaters to attach sensors to their skates.  It could be made part of the warm up.  Some of the most impactful aspects on scoring can be objectively measured.  

 

The 4 most ignored aspects of the GOE judging seems to be "height and distance" for greater than 3 GOE and reductions for "lacking rotation, no sign", "small jump", and "long prep".  The ISU could determine how many seconds of prep deserves how much deduction and the technology could automatically take a 2 or 3 GOE deduction depending on seconds of glide.  Same with certain reduction for falling below a predetermined height and deductions for "lacking rotation".  Also, I don't see why an 89 degree ur jump should be worth so much less than a 90 degree ur jump.  It's especially detrimental when a < jump gets the double whammy of GOE and BV reduction while judges don't take any deduction at all for a slightly ur jump.

 

It would also help a lot for the ISU to have their own judging staff.  I realize that they're trying to keep costs down but why couldn't they pull from the same pool of people they're already paying as the technical panel for judging?  and they're paying judges anyway. There's plenty of places to cut costs where it doesn't hurt the fairness of the competition. a lot of people like to try to invalidate people's observations with "judges know more than you" but the reality is that judges are pulled from the tiny pool of people who can afford to make judging figure skating their hobby, not necessarily people who are most passionate about the sport or even spend the most time studying the rules. the reality is that it's in the judges best interests to be corrupt - if they don't prop their own skaters up the federation probably will quit sending them to events.  

[Xen]

21 hours ago, hoodie axel said:

I agree that difficult entries that end up affecting the height shouldn't get away with it (unless the height is still good of course). I do wonder what kind of range of "effect" is acceptable, and also timing in the program matters. Someone doing an OK 3A first off in the program compared to someone doing it very late in the program, out of transitions is different. Ito doing her 3A 3 minutes into the 1992 Olympics LP, and still keeping it fairly massive is deserving of +6 GOE. Entries also sometimes mess up the air position, which should be another deduction.

But those are all trade- offs that the coaches and skaters should intelligently make. Basically, +4, +5 especially, should be the rare ones that pop out on protocols. Those are suppose to be your A range students. A lot of other skaters are B range, and besides, complex steps, or even steps in general are for the+4/+5 bullets. It's not a requirement anymore, so the trade-off is clear. So a skater and coach should calculate on hitting +3 to begin with, and then decide if they have the technical prowess to get the additional bullets. Otherwise, the overabundance of +4/+5 is simply the rules not being applied as intended. 

[hoodie axel]

36 minutes ago, Xen said:

But those are all trade- offs that the coaches and skaters should intelligently make. Basically, +4, +5 especially, should be the rare ones that pop out on protocols. Those are suppose to be your A range students. A lot of other skaters are B range, and besides, complex steps, or even steps in general are for the+4/+5 bullets. It's not a requirement anymore, so the trade-off is clear. So a skater and coach should calculate on hitting +3 to begin with, and then decide if they have the technical prowess to get the additional bullets. Otherwise, the overabundance of +4/+5 is simply the rules not being applied as intended. 

I don't think we disagree?

[Bilge]

Is it that subjective? I mean even without icescope or sensors you can sense a huge jump or can see transitions and skating skills. To me those are the least subjective ones among other PCs

[hoodie axel]

5 minutes ago, Bilge said:

Is it that subjective? I mean even without icescope or sensors you can sense a huge jump or can see transitions and skating skills. To me those are the least subjective ones among other PCs

Meh. It is time for us to realize that some skaters may train in skating, but it doesn't mean they know much about it.

[Bilge]

8 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

Meh. It is time for us to realize that some skaters may train in skating, but it doesn't mean they know much about it.

He recently elected to the ISU Athletes Commission right? Nice choice, well suited to isu

[kaeryth]

 

[Veveco]

Thank you Max.

 

Seriously, I don't get how Eric Radford can say that with a straight face. Well, write. You know what I mean. That is literally the equivalent of saying that judging is a big farce and that is absolutely normal.   Hum, sure. I guess he'll fit just fine with the ISU. 

[kaeryth]

7 minutes ago, Veveco said:

Thank you Max.

 

Seriously, I don't get how Eric Radford can say that with a straight face. Well, write. You know what I mean. That is literally the equivalent of saying that judging is a big farce and that is absolutely normal.   Hum, sure. I guess he'll fit just fine with the ISU. 

 

Duhamel/Radford are one of the skaters who benefited from subjective judging so of course he believes that judging is subjective.