General Skating Chat

[Sombreuil]

Speculation about the progress of the laser technology - it’s being trialled at the world gymnastics championships in Doha but not actually used to judge the competition- will be interesting to see how the computers judgement stacks up against the actual competition decisions.  They’re planning to use it at Stuttgart 2019 to evaluate blocked scores and inquiries and if that’s successful, in Tokyo 2020.

 

have a nice video with Kenzo Shirai 

 

 

[cirelle]

On 10/30/2018 at 12:15 PM, Xen said:

So someone was asking about layout talks....I've done 2, but I'm very suspicious of Kolyada's.

So far these are the 2 layouts. I've added in ChSq because it's a pretty stable BV.

Yuzuru Hanyu:

SP:  4S 3A 4T3T = 31.4

LP: 4Lo 4T 3Lo 4S3T// 4T1Lo3S 3A2T 3A ChSq= 76.11

BTW, for those wondering if Yuzu could move things around, if he moves the 3A to be second half, he would be at 32.2

 

Kolyada: Mikhail is an interesting case. He might be bringing the 4Lz, he might not (have yet to land it), and I suspect that the 3S2T should be a 4S2T and that the 3Lz1Lo2S that shows up in his protocols should have been a 3Lz1Lo3S. But anyways, here we go.

SP: 4T3T 3Lz//3A= 28.4  v2: 4T 3Lz3T//3A=28.4  v3: 4T3T 4Lz//3A=34

LP (v1-if he addes 4Lz): 4T3T 4Lz 3A 3S2T//4T 3Lo 3Lz1Lo2S ChSq= 65.56

LP (v2-the one he's been landing):  4T3T 3Lz 3A 3S2T// 4T 3Lo 3Lz1Lo2S ChSq= 59.96

LP (v3-maxed out version?): 4T3T 4Lz 3A 4S2T// 4T 3Lo 3Lz1Lo3S ChSq= 74.26

LP (v4-where he gets 4S but no 4Lz): 4T3T 3Lz 3A 4S2T//4T 3Lo 3Lz1Lo2S ChSq= 65.36

 

My guess is Mikhail will end up getting either V1 or V4 of the LP if he keeps at it. Has he landed a clean 4S before though? But he will need more than a quad toe to reduce the difference with Yuzu. And Yuzu is one of the less intense layouts. As for SP, Mikhail might as well stick to v1 or v2, same BV but more likely to get better GOE. Granted, he might go for the 4Lz, but considering stability and -GOEs on falls (even if he only gets -3 on falls), he'd lose over 4 GOE points even if everything else is clean. Plus the cap on PCs, so he loses too much IMO.

 

Shoma: think this is pretty much final

SP: 4F 4T3T//3A= 33.5

LP:  4S 4F 4T 4T2T//3A 3A1Lo3F 3S3T ChSq= 76.78

 

Thank you! I wasn’t expecting Kolyada to be such a wildcard! I guess Boyang’s doing the 6 quad (right?) layout he did in local comps earlier in the fall?

 

But most importantly, what about the 4T3A layout? How much lower would the BV be?

[Bilge]

On 10/30/2018 at 5:12 PM, yuzuonice said:

hello, I translated Max & Angelo discussion on men SP from ElenaC's videos.

 

 

Thank you so much!! 

[Xen]

9 hours ago, cirelle said:

 

Thank you! I wasn’t expecting Kolyada to be such a wildcard! I guess Boyang’s doing the 6 quad (right?) layout he did in local comps earlier in the fall?

 

But most importantly, what about the 4T3A layout? How much lower would the BV be?

Well his current planned layout is:

Yuzuru LP (Helsinki/planned):  4Lo 4S 3Lo 4T// 4T3A+SEQ 3F3T 3A1Lo3S ChSq= 76.98 which is actually higher than his old one. I think part of it is while the SEQ reduces, due to it being in the second half, the 10% bonus makes up for that loss in BV quite well.

(I don't remember if the 0.8 multiplier is to both jumps or just the second jump in the seq, but I used it on both, so it could be higher if it's just he 2nd jump affected).

Personally, I kind of prefer the 3A1Lo3S instead of the 4T1Lo3S because the former is more stable and I think he has a shot of good GOEs on it. But the all combos in the second half is scaring me a bit.

 

Also, I've been playing around with a couple layouts. The boy really is min/maxing his layout. Without adding in Lz jumps, the only other one I've tried is 4Lo 4T 3Lo 3F //4T3ASEQ 4S3T 3A1Lo3S ChSq= 77.42. The marginal gain in BV really isn't that high, and it still runs the all combos in second half risk.

[shanshani]

Figure I might as well post this here too. I've updated my scoring template with the Helsinki planned layouts, in case anyone was interested. The template currently contains Yuzu, Boyang, Mikhail, Alina, and Kaori's planned layouts and if you download it you can edit it to see how changes in scoring/layout affect the scores.

 

Helsinki DIY protocol (google)

Helsinki DIY protocol (if you don't have access to google)

[Melodie]

Hi guys and gals,

 

So I've just had a look through the protocol for Men's single free programs in GP Helsinki. I thought I understood about how average GOE is calculated but apparently I don't. Case in point: Yuzu got five -3, two -2, one -1 and one -4 for his underrotated 4Lo. His average GOE for the element was -2.14. If average GOE is calculated by averaging GOEs of all judges (excluding the highest and lowest GOEs), shouldn't his GOE be -2.71? 

[shanshani]

1 hour ago, Melodie said:

Hi guys and gals,

 

So I've just had a look through the protocol for Men's single free programs in GP Helsinki. I thought I understood about how average GOE is calculated but apparently I don't. Case in point: Yuzu got five -3, two -2, one -1 and one -4 for his underrotated 4Lo. His average GOE for the element was -2.14. If average GOE is calculated by averaging GOEs of all judges (excluding the highest and lowest GOEs), shouldn't his GOE be -2.71? 

His average raw GOE is -2.71, but the protocol reports the actual points, not the average of the raw judges scores. So you need to multiply the bv of 4Lo< by 27.1% to calculate the GOE 

[Yatagarasu]

Crossposting here too just for the heck of it 

 

Tally so far:

Names in red have qualified for the GPF, blue are substitutes

 

Men	Ladies	Ice Dance	Pairs
Michal BREZINA (CZE) 26 Junhwan CHA (KOR) 22 Yuzuru HANYU (JPN) 15 Nathan CHEN (USA) 15 Shoma UNO (JPN) 15 Keegan MESSING (CAN) 13 Nam NGUYEN (CAN) 12 Sergei VORONOV (RUS) 11 Alexander SAMARIN (RUS) 9 Mikhail KOLYADA (RUS) 9 Matteo RIZZO (ITA) 9	Kaori SAKAMOTO (JPN) 24 Satoko MIYAHARA (JPN) 15 Alina ZAGITOVA (RUS) 15 Elizaveta TUKTAMYSHEVA (RUS) 15 Mako YAMASHITA (JPN) 13 Stanislava KONSTANTINOVA (RUS) 13 Sofia SAMODUROVA (RUS) 11 Evgenia MEDVEDEVA (RUS) 11 Bradie TENNELL (USA) 9 Yuna SHIRAIWA (JPN) 9 Mariah BELL (USA) 9	Madison HUBBELL / Zachary DONOHUE (USA) 30 Charlene GUIGNARD / Marco FABBRI (ITA) 26 Lorraine MCNAMARA / Quinn CARPENTER (USA) 20 Alexandra STEPANOVA / Ivan BUKIN (RUS) 15 Victoria SINITSINA / Nikita KATSALAPOV (RUS) 13 Piper GILLES / Paul POIRIER (CAN) 11 Tiffani ZAGORSKI / Jonathan GUERREIRO (RUS) 11 Marie-Jade LAURIAULT / Romain LE GAC (FRA) 9 Sara HURTADO / Kirill KHALIAVIN (ESP) 9	Vanessa JAMES / Morgan CIPRES (FRA) 15 Evgenia TARASOVA / Vladimir MOROZOV (RUS) 15 Natalia ZABIIAKO / Alexander ENBERT (RUS) 15 Cheng PENG / Yang JIN (CHN) 13 Nicole DELLA MONICA / Matteo GUARISE (ITA) 13 Alisa EFIMOVA / Alexander KOROVIN (RUS) 13 Kirsten MOORE-TOWERS / Michael MARINARO (CAN) 11 Daria PAVLIUCHENKO / Denis KHODYKIN (RUS) 11 Ashley CAIN / Timothy LEDUC (USA) 11 Aleksandra BOIKOVA / Dmitrii KOZLOVSKII (RUS) 9 Miriam ZIEGLER / Severin KIEFER (AUT) 9 Alexa SCIMECA KNIERIM / Chris KNIERIM (USA) 9

[yuzuangel]

On 10/30/2018 at 11:04 AM, Neenah said:

Am I the only one who thinks this whole thing is a PR campaign to counter Vincent's reputation of URs? I may be pessimistic but this doesn't feel like a genuine concern especially since Tom Z and those "Americans" (whoever that is) know all the problems that could come up and that Vincent's jumps deserved the calls they got. 

 

Regardless, putting a process in place for skaters to challenge wrong calls is a good idea but it must be designed very carefully to prevent abuse. I don't know how exactly that can happen but it is worth thinking about. Though from what we have seen from the ISU and holding judges accountable, I am not expecting much 

Woah.

[makebelieveup]

I have to say I really like Boyang's short program. If he skates clean I wonder what score he would get. I actually think he has the best short program this season aside from Yuzu's of course. But its also his best program to date for me. So for you guys what are your favorite short program from each top contenders: Nathan, Boyang, and Shoma? And which one do you like the most?

[yuzuangel]

36 minutes ago, makebelieveup said:

I have to say I really like Boyang's short program. If he skates clean I wonder what score he would get. I actually think he has the best short program this season aside from Yuzu's of course. But its also his best program to date for me. So for you guys what are your favorite short program from each top contenders: Nathan, Boyang, and Shoma? And which one do you like the most?

In Helsinki, I was most impressed with Boyang after Yuzu. He really improved a lot. He almost seems like a completely different skater. Even when I was focusing only on Yuzu during practice, Boyang still grabbed my attention many times. Yeah he doesn't have the smooth edges and deep knees across the ice of Yuzu or even Shoma, and he still has many obvious crossovers, but he has clearly improved in all PCS aspects, especially presentation and interpretation of music. And his skating skills have improved a metric ton as well. In terms of musical interpretation I'd put him up there as one of the top men now, maybe behind only Yuzu (and maybe Jason Brown although his skating is not my style). Shoma interprets as well but always in the same way so it feels forced, and Kolyada has great skating skills but all the mistakes take away from his ability to perform (also he kept stumbling in his stsq too). 

[makebelieveup]

3 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

In Helsinki, I was most impressed with Boyang after Yuzu. He really improved a lot. He almost seems like a completely different skater. Even when I was focusing only on Yuzu during practice, Boyang still grabbed my attention many times. Yeah he doesn't have the smooth edges and deep knees across the ice of Yuzu or even Shoma, and he still has many obvious crossovers, but he has clearly improved in all PCS aspects, especially presentation and interpretation of music. And his skating skills have improved a metric ton as well. In terms of musical interpretation I'd put him up there as one of the top men now, maybe even second only to Yuzu. I'm not a fan of Shoma's programs this season tbh and Kolyada has great skating skills but all the mistakes take away from his ability to perform (also he kept stumbling in his stsq too). 

 

I agree. That song stuck in my head now thanks to his program. Since Im not too technical as a viewer yet, my preference for someone's skating is based highly on their skating style and interpretation of the music. I love his swagger in here. So much attitude and it def reminds me of PW Yuzu a bit. He really improved so much. I wonder if Yuzu had inspired him. In the past he was just a jumper to me but now I can def see him going further. I will be looking forward to him in the future. I would say this is better than Nathan's Nemesis, which is Nathan's best to date, and Shoma's Stairway to heaven, which I think his is best too. I rarely like Shoma's programs 

[MajaHled]

I agree that Boyang's SP is really great. I think I like it so much cause it goes for the playful and connected to the audience kind of preformance he's good at, but does it in a mature way, not a way that screams "I can't do anything better than this so have some wacky choreo to keep you satisfied", which is exactly what I felt the choreo sequence in star wars was designed to do. I'm afraid that his scores might not really reflect it thought, since he's always been subject to underscoring and erasure. Also, I think this is the first season I actually like both of his programs! (Last season I loved CTHD, but couldn't care less for his FS.) Plus after seeing him live (in an instance different than Milan disaster), I don't see how he doesn't get higher PCS. He's, IMO, much better live than on TV and he's surprisingly fast. 

[kaeryth]

 

[axelnojutsu]

3 hours ago, kaeryth said:

 

In the article they spell his name yuzuru hanyulle is that why they can’t pronounce it