General Skating Chat

[xeyra]

@Xen and @getsurenka, thank you so much for your translations and explanations about Zhao's words. When I first heard of this on twitter, I was given no context, just a 'Zhao believes Yuzu won because of his reputation' and that annoyed me a bit, but seeing the context and proper translation, I don't actually think what he said was dismissive of Yuzu? As said, he's being mostly neutral but not negative, mostly because of the way the question was posed to him. And it's not like he's wrong; as much as one thinks Yuzu is underscored nowadays (I don't think he is, particularly?), he is still the ideal of this era, in the end, and judges will mark him positively when he delivers, or he wouldn't be having all these WRs. 

 

Also, may I just say that asking if Yuzu is the GOAT to anyone who isn't a major stan of Yuzu is basically just asking for people to be on the defensive. I find the insistence on determining or acknowledging Yuzu's GOAT status a bit unecessary.

[Xen]

Just now, xeyra said:

@Xen and @getsurenka, thank you so much for your translations and explanations about Zhao's words. When I first heard of this on twitter, I was given no context, just a 'Zhao believes Yuzu won because of his reputation' and that annoyed me a bit, but seeing the context and proper translation, I don't actually think what he said was dismissive of Yuzu? As said, he's being mostly neutral but not negative, mostly because of the way the question was posed to him. And it's not like he's wrong; as much as one thinks Yuzu is underscored nowadays (I don't think he is, particularly?), he is still the ideal of this era, in the end, and judges will mark him positively when he delivers, or he wouldn't be having all these WRs. 

 

Also, may I just say that asking if Yuzu is the GOAT to anyone who isn't a major stan of Yuzu is basically just asking for people to be on the defensive. I find the insistence on determining or acknowledging Yuzu's GOAT status a bit unecessary.

Hmm, I'm still translating, but almost done. And Zhao is pretty complimentary of Yuzu, but you won't get that if you only look at the Yuzu specific clip. If you look at the full interview, there is a section where Zhao says what is amazing about Yuzu's mentality- he essentially states that what Yuzu does mentally is something worthwhile for coaches to study. Because most skaters, no matter how elite, crumble under pressure and do less than practice, but Yuzu is usually able to drive himself to achieve above what you see from his practice. That is a champion mindset, and is the ideal mindset (if you take it with the earlier question) for a figure skater by Zhao's standards. This is something he did not say about any other skater.

 

Additionally, with the judges and the "trend"- Zhao says much earlier that Yuzu did not have a very good performance at Sochi (and considering mistakes he is probably objectively right). So he took the entire new 4 year preparation period for PC, to  build his dominance, his presence and his confidence on the ice. So if you take that into context, then there should be no question that the "hanyu era" is earned, not just gifted, and that Yuzu is the gold standard for skating in the men's discipline now.

 

[xeyra]

4 minutes ago, Xen said:

Additionally, with the judges and the "trend"- Zhao says much earlier that Yuzu did not have a very good performance at Sochi (and considering mistakes he is probably objectively right). So he took the entire new 4 year preparation period for PC, to  build his dominance, his presence and his confidence on the ice. So if you take that into context, then there should be no question that the "hanyu era" is earned, not just gifted, and that Yuzu is the gold standard for skating in the men's discipline now.

 

 

Considering his records, his amount of top scores, his amount of max GOE in every type of element... yeah, I guess he is. 

[EisElle]

Everyone providing translations, thank you 

Zhao's interview in general is pretty interesting, it's nice to have insights on different coaching methods and it looks like he has a view of figure skating that equally values athletics, artistry and psychology. Also, I do agree with him that what you have to focus more when you start is getting the technical foundations.  

opinion on Yuzuru aside, I think he has the right approach right now and I can see why Boyang is improving his skating. For how much I'd like for Boyangman to become Yuzuru's new training buddy at TCC (a girl can dream), I think he is in good hands 

Raf, on the other hand, confused me. He is the one who went along with the liquid layout strategy and loads of quads for two seasons now, but then he goes there and complains Nathan changed strategy all of a sudden on the morning of the SP... maybe he should have taken a different approach months before the olympics, so Nathan would have not felt overconfident in being able to improvise his sp layout (which wasn't even that new). But given how well the free skate went, I don't see Nathan or Raf change their approach any time soon, tbh

 

opinion on Yuzuru's scoring under spoiler

Spoiler

Re: Yuzu not really being under scored. 

It may be true that he isn't actually underscored, if we look at the rulebook strictly. But we can say the same about some ladies too, they are not objectively underscored, especially if we look at the scores that skaters like Mao got during their careers or even Caro herself for her flawless programs back in Sochi.

but if we look at what judges are giving to other ladies, than people like Satoko or Mai or Wakaba are underscored. Similarly, if we look at other skaters' scores, imo it is true that Yuzuru isn't paid as much for what he does, in goe and pcs, so we can say he in underscored, even if it would be more accurate that he merely isn't overscored. In part it is because both goe and pcs are capped, so e.g. he can’t get more than +3 even with the most gorgeous of his jumps. That's something that the new goe range could address. But sometimes his gorgeous jumps don't even get full goe, or they get only half a point more than jumps which have objectively way worse execution.

Tho, at least, this season he has managed to get all +3 on his SP 3A.

I take this as slighlty encouraging, considering that last season a couple of those perfect axels received less

But at least his "underscoring" isn't yet nearly as outrageous as that we see in the ladies' field, and it hasn't changed the results that dramatically...yet. But if Helsinki and Olympics had gone a different way, we would be having an entirely different conversation. 

 

[axelsandwich]

Thanks @Xen for the detailed translation - I want to read the whole thing when I have time as it feels like Zhao has a lot of interesting things to say. De-mythologising is a good word for what Zhao was trying to do re: Yuzu since the interviewer was basically putting Yuzu on a pedestal and mounting a challenge to the Chinese training system. I actually see the Chinese team's approach as similar to TCC's in their emphasis on drilling basic foundations - which explains why Boyang has such good jumping technique - but where TCC adapts to each skaters' individuality (eg. getting different choreographers to work with different skaters), the whole 'group discount for one choreographer' approach is my biggest gripe with their system. 

 

The underscoring debate and people who push back against it make me roll my eyes most of the time because the issue has never been about Yuzu's scores alone, but about the relative gap between Yuzu's scores (PCS/GOEs) compared to the other men, given the extra care he takes on the form of his jumps and steps/transitions and also the fact that there are judges who actively underscore him when given the opportunity. 

[yuzupon]

1 hour ago, kaerb said:

The underscoring debate and people who push back against it make me roll my eyes most of the time because the issue has never been about Yuzu's scores alone, but about the relative gap between Yuzu's scores (PCS/GOEs) compared to the other men, given the extra care he takes on the form of his jumps and steps/transitions and also the fact that there are judges who actively underscore him when given the opportunity. 

Basically what I think about the Zu's 'underscoring' thing. Scores he received alone are fine, but when looking in comparison to the rest of the field, he IS being underscored in that it means everybody else is being overscored. (The same with the ladies, especially the Japanese ladies + those who are not from giant feds. The only difference is, while Yuzu still somewhat holds his fate in his hand - thank goodness -, those ladies don't )

[monchan]

1 hour ago, LadyLou said:

 

opinion on Yuzuru's scoring under spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

Re: Yuzu not really being under scored. 

It may be true that he isn't actually underscored, if we look at the rulebook strictly. But we can say the same about some ladies too, they are not objectively underscored, especially if we look at the scores that skaters like Mao got during their careers or even Caro herself for her flawless programs back in Sochi.

but if we look at what judges are giving to other ladies, than people like Satoko or Mai or Wakaba are underscored. Similarly, if we look at other skaters' scores, imo it is true that Yuzuru isn't paid as much for what he does, in goe and pcs, so we can say he in underscored, even if it would be more accurate that he merely isn't overscored. In part it is because both goe and pcs are capped, so e.g. he can’t get more than +3 even with the most gorgeous of his jumps. That's something that the new goe range could address. But sometimes his gorgeous jumps don't even get full goe, or they get only half a point more than jumps which have objectively way worse execution.

Tho, at least, this season he has managed to get all +3 on his SP 3A.

I take this as slighlty encouraging, considering that last season a couple of those perfect axels received less

But at least his "underscoring" isn't yet nearly as outrageous as that we see in the ladies' field, and it hasn't changed the results that dramatically...yet. But if Helsinki and Olympics had gone a different way, we would be having an entirely different conversation. 

 

Spoiler

Scoring and judging in FS has always been full of controversy and influenced by side factors like politics/internal hierachy, like not only FS, other sports too, but I only talk about FS here seeing how it's developed from the past. Scoring has been inflated over the years and it's nothing new, til the extent I don't even bother record breaking anymore (Thou if ppl take score as standard for ability I'm still happy Yuzu get the recognition he deserves as world record holder). My opinion on this matter is, provided the ranking is right, I'm fine. No matter how high the score is, it will be broken (or ISU will inflate score for someone to break it lol), only medallists (esp gold) will be remembered as representatives of their field and their era, they will define the direction of sport at their time. Should I be happy Yuzu still stand on top for such a long time? Hell yes, at least men's single isn't too hopeless as we have a complete skater on top. Judge might more lenient w young skaters and give them pts like free candy to encourage them and close the gap, thou it shouldn't go as far as changing the ranking esp top ones (not until youngters can develop into decent well-rounded skaters), cuz it's when the sport goes unexcusably wrong.

 

[Xen]

Hi guys I'm done translating the entire 53 min interview. Zhao is a talker!

About scoring-if I had to be objective, Yuzu would score in the 9.25-9.75 range for me on average. I still consider him the strongest among the men's for the blend of artistry and skills. It's when things start dipping below 9 without a major fault from him, that i start thinking about underscoring. But the issue is again, how other guys score relative to him. 

Going back to the interview, I think with the 2nd Oly gold, Hanyu era (defined as where Yuzu's combination of top technique plus high artistry is the gold standard) has started. Even with the changes in the GOEs coming, that might still not change. So hopefully, we'll get more guys focused on polishing for the next quad. =)

[WinForPooh]

9 hours ago, Xen said:

Hi guys I'm done translating the entire 53 min interview. Zhao is a talker!

About scoring-if I had to be objective, Yuzu would score in the 9.25-9.75 range for me on average. I still consider him the strongest among the men's for the blend of artistry and skills. It's when things start dipping below 9 without a major fault from him, that i start thinking about underscoring. But the issue is again, how other guys score relative to him. 

Going back to the interview, I think with the 2nd Oly gold, Hanyu era (defined as where Yuzu's combination of top technique plus high artistry is the gold standard) has started. Even with the changes in the GOEs coming, that might still not change. So hopefully, we'll get more guys focused on polishing for the next quad. =)

Wow, that was an insightful read! Thank you for all that work, it must have taken you ages.

 

What he said about an era or a gold standard, it made me think. All that talk about a technical programme and an artistic one might be representative of another change. Other than Yuzu, there aren't that many skaters who can be both technically and artistically excellent. The strongest feds don't have anybody who can follow all the current rules for difficulty in skating skills and transitions as well as land those high BV jumps. Yuzu might be the last of his kind, and really the only one of his kind. The one who bridges two completely different eras, being so good at both. He is caught in the middle between the uncles with the superlative skating skills and the quadsters who often prioritise jumps over the rest of their programmes, isn't he? Especially when both Nathan and Vincent are from the US, that might be the direction in which the sport is heading. 

[Xen]

25 minutes ago, WinForPooh said:

Wow, that was an insightful read! Thank you for all that work, it must have taken you ages.

 

What he said about an era or a gold standard, it made me think. All that talk about a technical programme and an artistic one might be representative of another change. Other than Yuzu, there aren't that many skaters who can be both technically and artistically excellent. The strongest feds don't have anybody who can follow all the current rules for difficulty in skating skills and transitions as well as land those high BV jumps. Yuzu might be the last of his kind, and really the only one of his kind. The one who bridges two completely different eras, being so good at both. He is caught in the middle between the uncles with the superlative skating skills and the quadsters who often prioritise jumps over the rest of their programmes, isn't he? Especially when both Nathan and Vincent are from the US, that might be the direction in which the sport is heading. 

Hmm...I would say that based on a general reading of Zhao's interview, and what he is doing with the Chinese skating feds, the bet seems to be that the sport is still going for balance. You need to have difficulty, but you still need to have artistry, which is why the chinese fed is spending all this effort to up the artistic sensibility of its athletes. I would argue that instead, the 4 years up to PC was a build up of momentum, a build up of the era that Yuzuru represents, which was somewhat cemented with Helsinki, and fully cemented with the olympics gold. 

 

And this does kind of sit with the general cycle of the sport- first technicals increase, then technicals level out as everyone gets the new difficulty, so then we swing back to artistry, GOE and balance and consistency. So Boyang brought in the 4Lz into conversation, but the real change was 2016/2017 when technicals increase with the arrival of Nathan Chen and his variety of quads. But that was short lived,  and in 2017/18 season, the vaunted 4Lz was attempted and landed by so many guys, so judges were just not as impressed by it anymore-it's still rare, but not quite as rare as 2016/2017. As such, pure difficulty was no longer such a focus point, and we swung back to the issue of artistry, balance and consistency. Due to Olys, consistency was more important. And will be for a while, but the change in rules does mean that technicals might come back to be more important, but it may not, especially if Yuzu goes and brings back the 4Loop and the 4Lutz, the technicals are now even.

 

What is surprising is that this increase of technicals, and the leveling out of technicals happened very fast-like 2, 3 seasons. Probably due to better technology, skaters being younger and drilling quads since young, etc. But I think that unless something extreme happens, even if we consider quints, that TES cap will be hit sooner than later. So then, the artistry and balance will still take more importance. Especially if the cut in the BV of jumps also gets passed.

 

 

[Forcefield]

Pure cynical speculation; mind dump:

 

I think it's good for Yuzu to miss Worlds, but I also think it's a time (as many skaters are retiring and the era is changing) that the judges and federations politick to get new rivalries and anointed ones picked out for the next quad. ISU will want to create stars. I actually think at Worlds we will see PCS and GOEs rise because of that.

 

With Javi gone, Europe will have to decide if they want to get all behind Misha or find a new favorite.

 

I think Nathan's PCS and GOEs will rise because ISU needs a top man against Shoma if Hanyu's still in the dark about when he will recover.

 

Will Boyang get some of the benefits and candies as well? I hope so.

 

If Hanyu WD, Worlds for men will be another GPF with Boyang not WDing and healthy and it might be a big test to see who ISU wants to lead the new gen without the old guard.

 

Of course, many of the skaters can control their trajectory a bit (as long as the scores don't get too crazy) but we do know that clean skates won't get a non-favorites anywhere unless there's a big splatfest.

 

And with change of rules next season and maybe-changes of lowering quad bv, removing a jump pass, and increasing GOEs to -5 +5, ISU is basically taking even more control out of skaters' hands to determine a part of their own scores so judges can continue to reward PCS and even more GOEs as they like.

[Eclair]

@Xen wow this was so much work, thank you for translating! This certainly was no easy to translate interview. I listened to it in original and think you really did a great job to capture all the nuances! 

 

Content-wise, I'm a little disappointed in the approach HongBo sees for the future. He basically said, that they'll keep inviting specialists or have specialist-camps for a short time, but won't send skaters to foreign coaches to train full time. So no Papa Brian for Boyang. 

This also means, no PCS boost for Boyang and no Papa Brian mentality magic for him. He will have to relay on his own resilience fully in dealing with pressure. 

Also, Skating Skills as well as good jumping technique don't happen overnight with a 2-week specialty camp. You need people to push you every day in those issues to really make an improvement. Same goes for choreography. 

Another issue is, that it doesn't sound like they'll change choreographers. Lori is one of the best choreographers out there, no questions, but choreographing for all of team china - 15 programs in a few weeks is too much even for her. There is bound to be some good and some bad ones. Of course Lori is obviously inspired by Sui/Han, and very much likes Peng, but maybe Yu/Zhang could try someone else like Wilson or Shea-Lynn. I'd also love to see Sui/Han to skate to something Tom Dickson choreographed.

Lori and Boyang, I can live with. She clearly knows how to hide weaknesses and accentuate strengths but I feel she could use a more modern approach with him. A cool SP à la Chafik Besseghier's Rap is not going to happen under Lori. Shae-Lynn is more creative in that regard, but I'm not sure if Boyang can already handle her choreography ...

 

I really like, that in the future, figure skaters can both go to school and train. But one essential thing Hongbo forgot (or didn't mention) is learning English. It really is crucial for skaters to be fluent in it to advertise for themselves if their fed can't. 

Also, acting classes would help, too. I was astonished when XiaoYu said in an interview that she held back a smile because her character in Swan lake was supposed to be sad. I didn't see any sad expression during her skate. It was just neutral. 

 

Another disappointing tidbit for me, was how he stretched that professional athletes should prioritize skating over everything. Of course that's true- it should be a given for professional athletes. But we also need personalities, not only pure focus. That's the reason Brian always tells Yuzuru to relax more and not take everything so seriously. It's not helpful in competition and will create a lot of frustration and internal pressure, like we saw with Sui/Han in the FS. And their lost levels are purely a training /coaching issue, as I'm sure no matter what nerves or pressure, they are able to get a level 4 spin. 

watching a modern dance once a year is really not much. Skaters need more - books, movies, skating programs, all kinds of things. And not every one should get the same. Boyang doesn't need the same dancing classes or watch the same movies as Sui/Han. 

 

[kaeryth]

Alexei Yagudin: "I don't like when people want to stop the quads because of injuries"

 

Quote

What do you think, is there less room for artistry in figure skating now under the new judging system?

 

The rules have changed, the world has changed. Right now it's hard to compare what's happening on the world stage of skating to what happened 15-20 years ago, everything has changed so radically. I support the progress and I already predicted in the past that skaters would perform pretty much all the quads in their programs. That's what's happening right now. I'm sure skaters will do a jump with five rotations in a near future. The judging system has changed, but the race for better quality and results doesn't stop.

 

Quote

But this is very demanding on the body, for example at Skate America two skaters dislocated their shoulders. You also had some serious problems with your hip; you even had to have a hip replacement.

 

And a lot of people say: "Stop the quad jumps; stop the quad throws in pairs!" However, injuries will happen. We need to progress, we have to improve and learn something new. I don't like when people want to stop the quads because of injuries. Injuries will always happen in sports.

 

[baninainpajamas]

it's gonna be weird having a world champ that's not Javi or Yuzu 😬

[fireovertheice]

With an initial praise of Yuzu's performance, a very interesting analisys of Max Ambesi and Angelo Dolfini after the men's short program at the OG (by the SashaWitchProject on Vimeo, posted first in YHfbgroup by Alessandra Montrucchio): they look into some elements, explaining also the superiority of Yuzuru (with the conclusion that "Hanyu is not rewarded enough for what he actually does on the ice" quoting Max). But also their comparison between the 4Lz of Boyang and Dima is interesting and the image used for that are very clear, for example. And their thoughts about prerotations, steps before the solo jump, scoring, judging...and so forth.

 

I post it here also if is in all in Italian: I hope that you can understand the main things said, but I am sure the english translation will follow soon (or if not some of the Italian people of the Planet can could do it): https://vimeo.com/257697202