General Skating Chat

[meoima]

2 hours ago, Neenah said:

I finally found this, been looking for since yesterday

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?53491-Measuring-Skater-Jump-Height

The post is old (2014) but it is a good example of how to do analysis. The poster explain their methodology, calculate the error ratio and clarify why it is there,  then they produce results based on it. The whole process is explained and can be replicated, which is what a true analysis looks like.

 

The result the article published are not the problem for me, but the lack of methodology is. The professor could be right, but without knowing what they studied exactly, it is impossible to verify those results which is why I cannot accept them. This has nothing to do with me being a Yuzuru fan, but everything to do with me being a researcher in STEM. I personally don't care how high Yuzu's jumps are. I like them because they are beautiful and effortless and their size is fine for me. I also have no problem with Shoma or any other skater's jumps since they are doing something I personally can't do and I have great respect for them.

 

Btw, my criticism in not directed toward the professor as I don't know if they wrote the article themselves or just did the research and someone else is reporting on it. Since I can't read Japanese there is a lot I could have missed and the professor could have done proper research but only the results made it to the media. I hope they clarify it soon because something like that is really bad for the reputation of any researcher and I do wish them the best. 

I remember that topic and the poster is very fair. Too bad he doesn’t count the current skaters anymore. 

 

Back to the “article”, not to be mean but Chykyo is not much of a famous research institution anyway. Chukyo university place 137th in Japan university ranking when it comes to research. Iron Klaus has showed that ranking on her twitter.

if it’s Waseda or Keio research we would say something. But it’s from a university which you have to scroll a lot (and this case it’s almost near the bottom) to see their name then... 

I remember Khoai’s university even has several researchers won Nobel prize and it’s definitely higher than Chukyo university. If this data were from somewhere like that I would have taken it more seriously. But nope, it’s from a place with not much prestige in researching with conflict of interest and the numbers don’t make sense so... 

 

I am no researcher but in my line of work I have to read and quote a lot of researchs. And no where I’ve seen such kind of research with dubious data. 

[swanbeau]

i gotta say i love all this nerdy rants  if only this happens not just bc of a dubious article....

 

"They are right if we assume a perfect isolated system without friction of air and ice" -> ngl this made me laugh

"It's not as if skaters will be skating in a vacuum anytime soon" -> this made me laugh harder

 

i would love discussing measurement methods though and the possibility of 4A n quint *shifty eyes* for science! also this just make me crave more for yuzuru nerding out about his jumps and all the calculations he did. man, the day jpn make a video segment about this would be the day i go to heaven on a more unrelated note, yuzu is about to graduate right? i wonder what his thesis will be about, i know itd be creepy to want to read it but... i want to read it, only if its gonna be publicized tho *pls ignore me*

[kaeryth]

15 minutes ago, swanbeau said:

on a more unrelated note, yuzu is about to graduate right? i wonder what his thesis will be about, i know itd be creepy to want to read it but... i want to read it, only if its gonna be publicized tho *pls ignore me*

 

I'm willing to bet it will have something to do with figure skating

[swanbeau]

10 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

 

I'm willing to bet it will have something to do with figure skating

i mean, im like 99.99% sure it will be about figure skating since that was the sole reason he choose it in the first place but im curious what aspect of it will be about? his jumps? his programs? seimei? since he mentioned that someone said to him that ~scientifically quint is possible~ in that press con, was that from his prof suggesting his research topics? the theory of quints? lmao im reaching

 

anyway it would be cool if he or someone else provide more research into the technology that goes into skating tools that help skaters to skate safely. for example, skating boots and blades. i know for quad users they're designed differently. sturdier etc. or how to make it cheaper but with not less quality because i know how expensive skating boots are is one of the reason ppl dont pick up this sport that easily. i remember he said it's made with bullet proof material....

 

also i know ppl made fun of ~'boots issue' because of how US media milk it as if no skater ever face it ever except their own, but boots issues are hard. For all of skaters. They just rarely talk about it. In one of kim yuna documentary they talk about how the blade need to be exactly in the center of gravity of the skater. But it's really hard to find that center. And the blade that is positioned badly will lead to so many problems. New skates will mostly have this issue. This leads to the boots breaking and falling apart, etc. I figured maybe this is why yuzu dont use his new black blades in competition for now. 

 

wow this turns long lmao here is the video about yuna and his mother talking about it if ppl want to watch

 

[kaeryth]

28 minutes ago, swanbeau said:

i mean, im like 99.99% sure it will be about figure skating since that was the sole reason he choose it in the first place but im curious what aspect of it will be about? his jumps? his programs? seimei? since he mentioned that someone said to him that ~scientifically quint is possible~ in that press con, was that from his prof suggesting his research topics? the theory of quints? lmao im reaching

 

anyway it would be cool if he or someone else provide more research into the technology that goes into skating tools that help skaters to skate safely. for example, skating boots and blades. i know for quad users they're designed differently. sturdier etc. or how to make it cheaper but with not less quality because i know how expensive skating boots are is one of the reason ppl dont pick up this sport that easily. i remember he said it's made with bullet proof material....

 

 

It's actually frustrating that ISU would spend their time having FS videos removed from youtube rather than focus their time/money on research. I mean for every other sport we've got statistics on athletes but not in figure skating? This is a way to emphasize how hard this sport really is because unfortunately, it's still being looked down upon as something that is not a legitimate sport or even a more 'girly/gay' sport because or the performance/artistic aspect (however, gymnastics doesn't seem to have this problem).

 

Conspiracy theorist side of me thinks they won't do it because if they do research and statistics on techniques they would have to acknowledge PR, UR, etc... and judges won't have any excuses to score technical content properly...

[WinForPooh]

Oh man, I laughed about the perfect and ideal system with no air or ice friction could make the data work. Yep, that is exactly how research should be done - pick numbers and then figure out what conditions you can find to make the numbers make sense! That is exactly how you get your name and work and department discredited. I mean, disregard gravity along with friction, why don't you, then.

 

Now I am imagining Yuzu jumping in reduced gravity, that would be so strange.

 

 

[axelnojutsu]

1 hour ago, WinForPooh said:

Now I am imagining Yuzu jumping in reduced gravity, that would be so strange.

 

 

 

reminds me of this 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[EisElle]

5 hours ago, swanbeau said:

wow this turns long lmao here is the video about yuna and his mother talking about it if ppl want to watch

 

Yuna 

Now I'm even more  at some professionals that let/suggestivo to  move the blades off the gravity centre.

I know the placing of the blades can vary a bit, but I guess it is because different body types require that (e.g wider hips vs. A slimmer frame). Even walking on the ground the placements of feet is important and any pathology can create problems to the rest of the body, I can see why it is so important to have the blade exactly where it can sustain the body weight in the most balanced way. 

[WinForPooh]

2 hours ago, axelnojutsu said:

reminds me of this 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

Though that Javi clip.

[xeyra]

4 hours ago, WinForPooh said:

Oh man, I laughed about the perfect and ideal system with no air or ice friction could make the data work. Yep, that is exactly how research should be done - pick numbers and then figure out what conditions you can find to make the numbers make sense! That is exactly how you get your name and work and department discredited. I mean, disregard gravity along with friction, why don't you, then.

 

Now I am imagining Yuzu jumping in reduced gravity, that would be so strange.

 

 

 

Let's bring him to the moon! 

[Aotoshiro]

19 hours ago, swanbeau said:

i mean, im like 99.99% sure it will be about figure skating since that was the sole reason he choose it in the first place but im curious what aspect of it will be about? his jumps? his programs? seimei? since he mentioned that someone said to him that ~scientifically quint is possible~ in that press con, was that from his prof suggesting his research topics? the theory of quints? lmao im reaching

Don't you even...

I wish he wrote about psychological aspect of skating (okay, and psychological preparation for each jump, including the one you were popping the whole season), with his insight it would actually be SUPER interesting, plus it might help in progressing this part of skaters' training and hopefully help other skaters speak up about their issues/start actually working towards resolving them...yeah, wishful thinking, it will be about the perfect performance and where to find it.

 

18 hours ago, kaeryth said:

 

It's actually frustrating that ISU would spend their time having FS videos removed from youtube rather than focus their time/money on research. I mean for every other sport we've got statistics on athletes but not in figure skating? This is a way to emphasize how hard this sport really is because unfortunately, it's still being looked down upon as something that is not a legitimate sport or even a more 'girly/gay' sport because or the performance/artistic aspect (however, gymnastics doesn't seem to have this problem)..

bc they can show off their muscles-have you seen Uchimura's arms? That's manly. Not that noodly World Champion jumping at the speed of 300rpm, and your only muscle showing guy is gay so the sport is gay, end of story  _*cringe*

_{Also, amazing part of the FS is that since ISU doesn't do nearly enough in that aspect, the community takes the matter in their own hands and produce some almost scarily professional datas... and I'm not talking about universities.}

 

16 hours ago, WinForPooh said:

Oh man, I laughed about the perfect and ideal system with no air or ice friction could make the data work. Yep, that is exactly how research should be done - pick numbers and then figure out what conditions you can find to make the numbers make sense! That is exactly how you get your name and work and department discredited. I mean, disregard gravity along with friction, why don't you, then.

 

Now I am imagining Yuzu jumping in reduced gravity, that would be so strange.

 

 

We've already had that talk, do NOT let space kitty into reduced gravity if you want him to land back on Earth... one day.

.

15 hours ago, axelnojutsu said:

reminds me of this 

  Hide contents

 

 

I KNEW somebody would bring this up xD _{ngl was going to do that myself if nobody did before me.}

 

[Xen]

Um, so I went back and did my excel calculations for the men's Sp from Helsinki and this is what I got. Hope everyone is okay with no charts?

Helsinki SP scores as % earned:

1. Yuzuru Hanyu:

• Actual TES: 52.04. Perfect TES: 65.4
• TES%: 79.63%  PCS%: 94.75%
• NOTE:  The fact he missed the 4S3T combo was absolutely devastating. The base of that combo alone was 14.8. Without factoring in GOEs and PCs candies he could have gained, he would have hit 107 just by hitting that combo clean (TES would have jumped to 60.34). If he went clean in the SP, we might have seen a score above 110-giving him a normal GOE of 2.43 for that combo and a PCS boost of just 1 point, he would have hit over 111 in the SP.

2. Shoma Uno:

• Actual TES: 59.16 Perfect TES: 65.45
• TES%: 90%  PCS%:  91.4%

3. Boyang Jin:

• Actual TES: 57.65  Perfect TES: 67.23
• TES%: 86% PCS: 81.98%
• NOTES: hmm..StSq3 hurt him, and the GOE on the 4T plus the PCs was a bit puzzling. However, I'm not sure whether or not to call his movements before the 4T steps. If they are steps, then his scores stay the same, if not then...he drops another 4 points and closer to Kolyada.

4. Nathen Chen:

• Actual TES: 55.22   Perfect TES: 67.15
• TES%: 82.23%  PCS%: 86.22
• If we actually followed rules, and gave the -GOE for no steps, he would be lower by another 3 points, and closer to Kolyada for the SP scores

5.  Patrick Chan:

• Actual TES: 54.11  Perfect TES: 57.6
• TES%: 93.94  PCS%: 96.04%

6. Javier Fernandez:

• Actual TES: 60.79  Perfect TES: 63.35
• TES%: 95.96%  PCS%: 96.52

 

I then went ahead and tried to see what would happen if we actually applied the flat -3 GOE if no steps preceeding the solo jump  rule were actually applied. In this case, I went ahead and picked on Nathan Chen, because he does have one of the highest, if not the highest BV in the SP among the men. For this calculation, I picked on his Skate America 2017 SP:

• Layout: 4Lz3T  FSSp3  CCSp4// 4F  3A StSq4  CCoSp4
• Total TES: 59.56 (had a -1 GOE on the 3A). PCS: 44.56
• If he skated clean but had no steps: his total TES would be only 55.99 (in this case I did not add any positive GOE to his 3A, just gave the base value), because a -3 GOE would translate to a -4 in the final score. This, with his PCS there, would only give about 100.55 SP score, even if skated clean.
• Now realistically, if he skated clean, his 3A would get GOE candies, and his PCs would also get a boost. So I added another 3 points into that hypothetical (1 into his jump GOE, and 2 to his PCS against my will). But even so, that makes his SP score within 104.
•  A 104 SP score is only slightly higher than Patrick Chan's WC2017 SP performance (where there is only 1 4T combo in the first half), slightly under Shoma's SP score from WC2017, and under what Javi achieved, nevermind a clean Yuzu SP. And this is with a 4F and a 4Lz3T in the SP.
• So then, I thought well this makes something clear-you need a quad in the SP, even if the -3 GOE flat were applied. The question is, how many quads and what layouts could even rival Nate's in TES points if skated clean? How many quads do I really need?
• So with the Fisk8 app I went and made a couple hypothetical layouts. The GOEs I used are 2 avg for everything, and +3 GOE for a StSq4, spins being a  CCSp4, FSSp4, and CCoSp4 (Pchiddy's WC17 SP spins)
• 3A// 4T3T 3Lz: 55.26
• 3A//4T3T 4S: 60.81
• 4S// 3A 4T3T: 60.61
• 3A 4S//4T3T: 59.76
• So you would need at minimum a 4T and 4S to surpass Nate's SkA 2017 SP (on sterioids)layout. But this also means that for guys like Javi, it's possible to compete. A 4T is probably the minimum needed in the SP, but if the skater can maximize the GOEs and PCs scores (say 45-46 PCs), the point between this layout and Nate's is a lot smaller.
• While not completely solving everything, I think this could make a difference in the SP, in that it puts pressure on the guys with multiple quads in the long to stay on their feet-a 3 point lead in the Sp can be easily gone with 1 fall.  The Jason Browns of the world might not have a shot, but the Patrick Chan's of the FS world do.

 

[xeyra]

Translation of the Russian analysis of the Top 7 men's FS:

 

 

[Murieleirum]

27 minutes ago, xeyra said:

Translation of the Russian analysis of the Top 7 men's FS:

 

 

 

great, I know what to do instead of studying for the next hour

[fireovertheice]

Hi all!

Here you are a new video showing the data of Yulia about 1-foot skating and TR in the top 7 men SP (first part of the season), following the translation of  kolmogorov_is_sad and with the final observations of the "Figure skating comparison team".

 

Hope you like it and help to spread it . Every comment and further observations on the data are also welcome.