General Skating Chat

[WinForPooh]

On 10/6/2018 at 11:43 AM, Xen said:

Hmm, I'll wait to make conclusions about GOEs after I see more of the top 6 men skate relatively clean next to each other in the same competition. Judges should be able to judge each skater on an absolute basis, but really they judge skaters relative to each other. I'm forgetting which tweet it was, but some Japanese tweet had the highest scoring elements so far, and the highest still went to Yuzu, second was Shoma (diff was about 0.3). But since Yuzu had the slightly stricter ACI, while Shoma had Lombardia, I have a feeling those Lombardia points won't hold up. 

 

If I had to take a guess at how GOEs will be ranked amongst the top men this season for jumps, I would wager still, the order would be:

- Yuzu 

-Giant cluster of Shoma/Nate/Kolyada/Dima/Keegan 

-Boyang/Cha/Zhou 

 

So, never?  

 

I think GOE differences will be far more unpredictable this season because each judge seems to have a highly personalised interpretation of the guidelines. Changes from one competition to another, differences within the same competition - it's been pretty wild.

[CupidsBow]

I'm not so worried about GOE because Nathan should struggle to get above a 3 and shouldn't get close to a 5 without some kind of miracle and even if he did get 4s on his jumps...he can't in his steps and spins. Besides, he's only capable of hitting those high GOEs on maybe 1 or 2 elements.

Shoma is in the same boat GOE wise but he can get high GOE on his steps and spins and earns decent PCS. Nathan receives good PCS and is bound to get heaps of bonuses if he lands enough quads but he's never going to score on par with Yuzu unless the judges just give up even attempting to seem credible.

 

Average skate vs Average skate, Yuzuru should outscore in GOE. Best vs Best....sorry but no one should come close. 

[sallycinnamon]

 

[Xen]

Should we start doing layout calculations? Or is everyone so annoyed by the judging that we don't feel like it? XD

[shanshani]

1 hour ago, Xen said:

Should we start doing layout calculations? Or is everyone so annoyed by the judging that we don't feel like it? XD

I already did a lot of layout calculations! Though tbh, at this point I'm just too uncertain about possible layouts to really spend much time on it. For instance, what even is Yuzu's planned FS layout? Is he going to jump the 3F or not?

 

Nathan is slightly easier to speculate about, but even then I'm not sure. He seems to be playing it safe so far, but it also looks like he's given himself room to upgrade.

[Xen]

31 minutes ago, shanshani said:

I already did a lot of layout calculations! Though tbh, at this point I'm just too uncertain about possible layouts to really spend much time on it. For instance, what even is Yuzu's planned FS layout? Is he going to jump the 3F or not?

 

Nathan is slightly easier to speculate about, but even then I'm not sure. He seems to be playing it safe so far, but it also looks like he's given himself room to upgrade.

I think we can list the layouts you've thought of and do a process of elimination based on past experience. For Yuzu, well he's a rhythm jumper, so his layout isn't as wild as Nate's. Think Shoma's is kind of set, and Boyang we should know after GP Finland as Boyang doesn't change it as much. The 2 Russian men (Aliev and Kolyada) don't change as much, and I think Zhou's is also set.

[cirelle]

12 hours ago, Xen said:

Should we start doing layout calculations? Or is everyone so annoyed by the judging that we don't feel like it? XD

 

Yes please! Like how does the one with 4T3A and 3F2T compare to last seasons planned one with the 4Lz and the one he actually did at the Olympics? 

[SSS]

13 hours ago, Xen said:

Should we start doing layout calculations? Or is everyone so annoyed by the judging that we don't feel like it? XD

Finally you mentioned!

i have been worried about the layout since August lol

[Paskud]

[EisElle]

We can all agree that Tech panel and judges should be provided with the best video feed possible Actually, it's something so obvious that it's a joke there is even the need to raise this point Now, MrLakernik, I hope something will be done (after all, it' is US complaining) and ISU can finally let go of its allergy to technology.

I'd add to this that I'd like for the official video feed they use to be made accessible after a comp, so at least we can all see what the panel sees  (so we can stop cutting slack to panels with all the "maybe they had different camera angle"...except maybe ISU doesn't wish for that type of transparency).

I also wish they provided many visual examples of what is to be considered an underrotation and how to count rotations, because commentators and skating fans are watching the exact same footage and apparently still can't agree if a jump is rotated or not, so, unless some people has serious problems with maths, we probably can't agree on what to check and when. Also,  I really want the new guidelines for calling lips and flutz to be shared, because honestly there have been many puzzling calls and we're still at the beginning of the season 😑

 

I always tell myself: enjoy the skating, what do placements even change for you? Just be happy watching the programs and be chill about the scores. But after all, scores do matter for the skaters, for their placement and self-satisfaction and career, and I do care about many of them, not only about their programs. So I always end checking protocols and being 

I suppose that, once accepted the fundamental unfairness of certain current scoring, one could stop worrying, like it's pointless to worry about things out of our control. But I can't stop thinking about skaters as people with hopes and dreams and feelings that are in the hands of those judging them, too, so the very idea that status quo is unchangeable makes everything in me wanna rebel  

[Xen]

5 hours ago, LadyLou said:

We can all agree that Tech panel and judges should be provided with the best video feed possible Actually, it's something so obvious that it's a joke there is even the need to raise this point Now, MrLakernik, I hope something will be done (after all, it' is US complaining) and ISU can finally let go of its allergy to technology.

I'd add to this that I'd like for the official video feed they use to be made accessible after a comp, so at least we can all see what the panel sees  (so we can stop cutting slack to panels with all the "maybe they had different camera angle"...except maybe ISU doesn't wish for that type of transparency).

I also wish they provided many visual examples of what is to be considered an underrotation and how to count rotations, because commentators and skating fans are watching the exact same footage and apparently still can't agree if a jump is rotated or not, so, unless some people has serious problems with maths, we probably can't agree on what to check and when. Also,  I really want the new guidelines for calling lips and flutz to be shared, because honestly there have been many puzzling calls and we're still at the beginning of the season 😑

 

I always tell myself: enjoy the skating, what do placements even change for you? Just be happy watching the programs and be chill about the scores. But after all, scores do matter for the skaters, for their placement and self-satisfaction and career, and I do care about many of them, not only about their programs. So I always end checking protocols and being 

I suppose that, once accepted the fundamental unfairness of certain current scoring, one could stop worrying, like it's pointless to worry about things out of our control. But I can't stop thinking about skaters as people with hopes and dreams and feelings that are in the hands of those judging them, too, so the very idea that status quo is unchangeable makes everything in me wanna rebel  

 

I thought the technology that they used for the stro-mo replay of jumps at the olympics was pretty good. You know where they show the jump going up, stills of the air air rotation, and stills when the skater lands before it goes to normal speed for the landing flow. IMO, for tech panels that should be fine to help pinpoint URs and possibly edges, when combined with existing cameras.  And time wise- well did those stro-mo stills replay take up a lot of time when viewing during olys? I recall them being rather quick.

 

I think this also may require something to be done about a separate GOE panel of judges-which now, when checking protocols, is more reasonable than ever before.

[EisElle]

2 hours ago, Xen said:

 

I thought the technology that they used for the stro-mo replay of jumps at the olympics was pretty good. You know where they show the jump going up, stills of the air air rotation, and stills when the skater lands before it goes to normal speed for the landing flow. IMO, for tech panels that should be fine to help pinpoint URs and possibly edges, when combined with existing cameras.  And time wise- well did those stro-mo stills replay take up a lot of time when viewing during olys? I recall them being rather quick.

 

I think this also may require something to be done about a separate GOE panel of judges-which now, when checking protocols, is more reasonable than ever before.

That technology looked good and it's surreal to think casual audience was probably watching a more reliable video than the people who had to judge and decide the placements 

I don't know why they can't have access to such technology when it's already avaliable on the rink thanks to broadcasting(it couldn't probably be done by ISU itself because of cost and maybe also need of specilized operators I have no idea about how it works). It looked quick enough to me, but even if it wasn't, it could still be used as fine-tooth-comb tool when the usual feed still leaves doubts.

Still, using additional broadcasting feed looks like such an easy and ready-to-use solution (I bet jpn TV has higher video definition than the ISU camera). I suspect it's more matter of burocracy and regulations if this doesn't happen...

 

And ISU congress has refused to even re-discuss split panels a few months ago, I have 0 hope they'd want to reconsider that proposal in the next few years, despite the wilderness in the scores...and in a few years they're probably going to split programs into artistic and technical, so panels won't have to focus on judging both sides of a program in detail all at once. It's a smart solution, if I think about that, to bypass the problem if you can't solve it. Tho it's not the type of solution I'd particularly like 

[Neenah]

Using broadcast video would be useful but it is only available in the biggest competitions. which means that for these competitions the TP will be working with a totally different setting and equipment. How would the ISU train them on handling this when it is such small subset of the judging they do? and what of the issues that may arise from their unfamiliarity with the different approach. We may end up seeing more mistakes (of different kind than usual). These is also the fact that different networks broadcast different competitions so it would be even harder to come up with a universal solution to link their equipment with the ISU's own software and systems.

 

IMO, a second camera is a must, but is should be a solution that can be used in the majority (if not all) of the FS competitions to avoid more problems. The last thing we need is a confused Technical caller 

[Dori6886]

17 hours ago, LadyLou said:

We can all agree that Tech panel and judges should be provided with the best video feed possible Actually, it's something so obvious that it's a joke there is even the need to raise this point Now, MrLakernik, I hope something will be done (after all, it' is US complaining) and ISU can finally let go of its allergy to technology.

I'd add to this that I'd like for the official video feed they use to be made accessible after a comp, so at least we can all see what the panel sees  (so we can stop cutting slack to panels with all the "maybe they had different camera angle"...except maybe ISU doesn't wish for that type of transparency).

I also wish they provided many visual examples of what is to be considered an underrotation and how to count rotations, because commentators and skating fans are watching the exact same footage and apparently still can't agree if a jump is rotated or not, so, unless some people has serious problems with maths, we probably can't agree on what to check and when. Also,  I really want the new guidelines for calling lips and flutz to be shared, because honestly there have been many puzzling calls and we're still at the beginning of the season 😑

 

I always tell myself: enjoy the skating, what do placements even change for you? Just be happy watching the programs and be chill about the scores. But after all, scores do matter for the skaters, for their placement and self-satisfaction and career, and I do care about many of them, not only about their programs. So I always end checking protocols and being 

I suppose that, once accepted the fundamental unfairness of certain current scoring, one could stop worrying, like it's pointless to worry about things out of our control. But I can't stop thinking about skaters as people with hopes and dreams and feelings that are in the hands of those judging them, too, so the very idea that status quo is unchangeable makes everything in me wanna rebel  

In volleyball we have challenge. The other set of judges are watching video replay if one od the teams request it, and after they make a decision the replay is showed to the audience. I think it should be like that in FS too.

And I don't think that getting two better camera would be that much expensive. It is a 2018 after all. 

Also I would like to know what's going on with the flips. It is really weird situation. 

[Bilge]

Talking about conflict...