Old Cat Lady

Did you find what you need yet? I only have NBC Gold so most of the events don't have any commentary. eta: Just realized that the videos are already in the archive. Thanks for doing this

My understanding of the GP entry protocol in order of priority are: 1. Seeds are taken from worlds results. 1st, 2nd, 3rd can't meet. 4th, 5th, 6th can't meet. But anyone from top 3 can meet anyone from 4-6. 2. Host nation preference 3. Skater wishes in order of worlds finish. For number 3, I'm not clear on whether the higher finisher gets priority on both his choices or if it's more like a taking turns on picks thing. But since host nation preference takes priority, I imagine it's rarely relevant. There's also the X-factor of how much does ISU try to orchestrate things? It makes sense for ISU to put Yuzu at the events where the host nation has the weakest local draws. We're 99.99% sure that Nathan is getting Skate America. Ironically, after that, the only event that I have doubts about wanting Yuzu the most is the one in Japan. It looks like they generally support the national champion and they seem to want to support Shoma. They also know that they don't need Yuzu to sell out. Will Nathan and Vincent not even bother requesting NHK since they'll assume Yuzu will be there? I think Vincent benefits most from picking Skate Canada and Cup of China. Canada because it's the 2nd shortest travel time for him. Cup of China because that's the country that he's most popular in outside the US. But any event with any sense of business would rather have Yuzu so not sure if Vincent's wishes are even relevant in this case. How much is the host nation going to try to protect their own? Japan doesn't seem to care. Russia also seems to have no qualms about putting Kolyada against strong competition. Boyang is more likely to beat Vincent than Yuzu or Nathan but I can't imagine that China would deny Yuzu considering how popular he is there. Would they reject Nathan to protect Boyang? Yuzu seems to love Russia and Canada is the easiest commute for him. The 2 events are also spread out, though I'm not sure why it's an advantage as opposed to back to back events if one event is in his home country. I would think that Cup of China/Rostelecom and NHK would be fairly convenient if Ghislain travels with him the whole way - he could just go straight to Japan after his first event. In conclusion: I have no idea where Yuzu will end up eta: If Nathan has to make arrangements with his professors no matter what his second event is, maybe he'd rather just choose the shortest commute which means Skate Canada for him. Last year, Shoma requested Skate Canada and NHK, though I don't know why he wanted Canada and we don't know if JSF will try to separate him from Yuzu. After all, they had Kaori and Satoko both do Skate America last year. Shoma might want to do Skate Canada if he's superstitious since he's won it 2 years in a row now. I think Kolyada just chose the 2 events that are closest to him, which this year would be Russia and IDF, assuming that China wants Boyang. Boyang's done Skate America 2 of the last 3 years. This is my best guess so far. Skate America: Nathan, Boyang Skate Canada: Shoma, Nathan IDF: Kolyada, Vincent Cup of China: Boyang, Vincent Rostelecom: Kolyada, Yuzu NHK: Shoma, Yuzu eta 2: Shoma can get into the final with 2 seconds. JSF has good reason to believe that he and Yuzu will do no worse than 2nd so there isn't actually much reason to protect them.

Did you guys already buy tickets for the event you think he'll be at? I wonder if it's worth spending the money on a ticket to Skate Canada - I imagine it'll take a lot of luck to get a ticket afterwards if it's announced that he's going to be there. Same with Autumn Classic. I think he'll do NHK and either Cup of China or Rostelecom.

Thanks. The 2 sections about short program jumps do directly contradict each other. Maybe it was just poorly written or whoever published it mis-edited? Seems weird that they could possibly have missed it when the paragraphs are back to back Unless it's just a directive to judges to assign a GOE even though there's no value to the element but that seems weird too. The euler is a bizarre change too. The downgrade part is the same as last year and makes sense since the same rules should be applied to all jumps but why eliminate under rotations on the euler? Were there actually people complaining about this? It makes no sense to create a different standard for one specific jump. eta: it seems that it just gives the power to the judges to overlook under rotated eulers. the judges almost never apply an under rotation reduction unless the tech panel assigns a < and I'm guessing the judges that actually do, get called out at the judges meeting.

Honestly, I just wanted some direction on what I should watch as it gets tedious trudging through one mediocre performance after another so I appreciate the lists. It looks like we're the only ones that took an interest though . When I'm in a better skating mood, I'll put together our lists and maybe combine them with the previous "greatest skates of all time" lists

Sorry to be a downer, but I've had a drastic drop in enthusiasm for the sport. Not sure how much of it is it being the off season vs rule changes/fan reactions/lack of rule enforcement vs. feeling a growing level of pessimism about the next few years. I don't even visit the Planet every day but figured I should catch up to make sure I don't miss out on any Yuzu showings. I planned to finally do some traveling and attend competitions starting in fall but I don't know if I want to invest money into something that only makes me depressed these days, especially when they're exploiting Yuzu and his fans by gouging them. If Yuzu is still feeling pain in the ankle, is he likely to still do Autumn Classic? I thought by this time last year Yuzu was saying that there wasn't anymore pain? To be honest, as much as I'm looking forward to the new exhibitions, I feel kind of sad that he's doing the whole tour again rather than letting himself heal completely, if that's even possible anymore. Anyway, I've finally caught up on the two main threads. I don't see anything about this -5 for pops in communication 2253 or in a search. Does anyone have a link to the communication that explains it so I can see the specific wording?

I'm confused as to what they mean by "delay" in rotation. I thought "delayed rotation" referred to jumps where the skater jumps into the air first then completes all the rotations in the air. If the rotation is starting on the ice, how can you argue that there's any delay? I think heavy pre-rotaters also essentially spin off the take off because they're relying on rotational momentum to complete the jump. I can't think of one that turns forward, then pauses to stop the rotation, takes off, then completes the rotation - and if they are doing that, isn't it essentially a different jump? Nevermind that at 180 degrees pre-rotation, the skater would be taking off forward so the jumps should technically be called "downgraded" and therefore how can you even call it a quad (unless they're going for a quint)?

I'm not sure what I hate more - Elvis medleys or Chaplin programs. I think it's time for me to give up on him. I've been holding out hope because I'm such a huge fan of his actual skating and I'm not so emotionally invested to feel crushed by the head case factor, but I don't think I can deal with terrible programs anymore. Why is it such a sin these days for beautifully classic skaters to skate to music that suits their natural style? I don't care that Carmen is a warhorse - it was the only program I've seen of his that suited him perfectly.

I should clarify that when I said that Michelle Kwan got discussed as GOAT, it was more a fan thing than a media thing and it was when her career was still active and the Olympics were still a possibility. I think in the US, most people consider the Olympic singles gold to be essential for GOAT candidate. Though I think sometimes people would intimate that she could become the GOAT - I remember when Peggy Fleming was doing one of those commentary intros, she talked about how Michelle Kwan was an important figure while Tara became a "blip on the radar". I think the dichotomy of the sport also affects how people rank the GOAT candidates. Sport is judged very differently than art and leaning more one way or the other (or in hoodie's case, neither), can produce 2 completely different, though valid in their own way, lists. For me, ISU competition is sport first. We all know that for those who are actually competitive for titles, artistic sacrifices are made to garner points, if the skater even has an artistic point of view in the first place. I think most skaters just do what is expected of them in order to place as high as they are able rather than trying to make any sort of artistic statement. As such, I hold skating to the same standards as other sports and in every sport, the competitive results are the primary, but not sole, determiner of GOAT status but everyone who is considered a GOAT candidate also has the biggest titles in the sport. I also agree with rockstaryuzuru in that, one of the biggest determiners of GOAT is how many people agree that you're the GOAT - after all, it is an artificial fan anointed title, no matter what sort of logic we try to bring to it. I agree that there should also be a differentiation between eras. I don't think it has to be as drastic as between generations, which for sports is not very long, but certainly between major changes to the sport. It's pretty much a different sport since figures was devalued and then eliminated.

Is a toe axel an actual different thing? I thought it was just short hand for "exceptionally crappy pre-rotated toe loop". Or are you just objecting to use of the slang? yes, it doesn't look like he's really picking and he's taking off forward, but we've seen elite skaters get credit for take offs just as bad. I'm more confused about why they're even working on this unless the kid already has all the quads. The cynical part of me thinks that the harness guy is doing the majority of the work and this was just staged for publicity. Of course, I would say the same about most of these attempts, excluding Dmitriev only because he's not on a harness. But, c'mon, does anyone actually believe for a second that he'll ever rotate and land it? also, I don't think quints are happening any time soon unless there's a major innovation in technology. Inspiration can go only so far. btw, I added Camden Pulkinen's attempt to the original 4axel post. Not sure how much of his jump problems are in his head vs in his technique, but it seems that a skater who is actually trying to make a career out of skating should be utilizing their precious ice time for stabilizing their regular jumps first. Dmitriev doesn't have much to lose since he's likely never going to medal in nationals or grand prix event anyway so this is his only chance at a claim to fame. But then again, I don't see Pulkinen ever being a contender on the world stage anyway.

Maxim Belyavsky Max Aaron Artur Dmitriev Jr There's 2 different attempts on this video

I was wondering about that myself though at this point, not sure how much more people have to say on the matter. @sallycinnamon @Hydroblade @robin @yuzuangel sorry to let it get this far, but if you want to move posts I created a new thread (not that it's necessary. I'm sure people can just copy and paste). First post on the subject is on page 4805

To continue discussion from the general Yuzuru chat

I'm just talking based on what I've seen as a whole personally, which, of course, is all English speaking and mostly NA and whatever gets translated (a few Russian and Japanese articles) so maybe a small sample? I see other names get thrown around on forums too, but not in large volumes.

That particular paragraph was to point out the contradictions in including/excluding some over others. Almost no one points to Grafstrom or Salchow, with 10 world titles, in the GOAT debate. Grafstrom checks off the same boxes as Button. They both introduced technical aspects to the sport, were dominant in their time, and won the most important titles multiple times. Same with Salchow - though he only won the Olympics once. The point of my entire post is that, from a sporting perspective, there are several commonalities in popular GOAT candidates, most of which translate throughout most sports It's strange that, that's the attitude in a sport where females tend to be the popular face, at least until fairly recently. In tennis and gymnastics, I think there is a lot of GOAT debates. Don't know much about other sports but I imagine with a lot of other sports there's less talk just because women in the sport don't have as much tradition as the men? I'm not talking about personal favorites, of which, then there would be a huge list of candidates. But about people who are widely mentioned in these categories. I personally think Yagudin is greater than Plushenko for the reasons I mentioned above. They both check off all the boxes for me but, personally, I think Yagudin edges out Plushenko because Yagudin was a more complete skater with more consistently memorable programs. However, when the GOAT conversation comes up in English speaking media, it's consistently Button, Plushenko, and Hanyu for the men. I think they get chosen for the reasons I mentioned above. Once again, when I say "longevity", I mean consistently at the top of the sport, not who's been in the sport the longest. Then it's a question of how long is long enough? Does being in the top 3 for 10 years matter more than dominating for 4? How do you weigh those who were great for a year or two then left versus those who were competitive for a couple cycles?

I've always thought it was strange that he was always completely ignored on the GOAT list, even with the recency bias. Obviously he didn't have that much competition in his day, but Button had a lot less competition in his day than this era and that doesn't stop him from being in the conversation. Personally don't think Plushenko should be in the conversation, but even with him, I've seen fans argue that he only won as much as he did because of weak competition but at least he was skating against a full field. Button won his titles in the aftermath of WWII - I don't know what got you out of serving but I have to think that the skating field was depleted from destroyed infrastructure even if a skater could get out of serving. I think another thing that's interesting about the GOAT debate is who gets left off the list. I've never heard anyone argue for Katarina Witt even though she has 2 Oly golds. Some people still mention Sonja Henie but not a lot. Yuna Kim gets mentioned often in spite of fewer world and Olympic titles . Even Michelle Kwan gets mentioned somewhat often, not as much now but in her day (though probably primarily by NA fans). I can't think of any others that have been candidates for female GOAT. On the male side, Alexei Yagudin is never considered in spite of being dominant in his day, having won more world titles than Plushenko, and I think most people consider him to be a more complete skater. I've seen a lot of people point to Yagudin's Winter as being one of the iconic programs so he also had memorable performances. So when you consider the qualities of a GOAT, from a purely sporting point of view, I think there are a few qualities that a skater must have 1. Excellence - Being superior in your craft. What did you do that was memorable? 2. Longevity - showing that you can do it time after time for a longer period. Frankly, I sometimes question the importance of this, but it seems to be important in the public's eye. 3. Dominance - How thoroughly you defeat the field. This is another one that I question because, as stated above, a lot of this is just dependent on your level of competition. 4. Impact - I remember Dick Button quoting someone when talking about, I think, Michelle Kwan. He said something about the sport being better when you left - it was much more eloquent than that but the gist of it is that the sport was elevated because you existed in it. I think for skating fans, this might be the biggest factor when considering GOAT status. How many people were inspired? Who changed the sport the most? eta: 5. Rising to the big moments - It's essential to win when it matters most. I don't care if you win every other title out there 10 times, if you can't do it at the competitions that are the pinnacle of your sport, you're not in the conversation. This is universal throughout all individual sports and to some extent, team sports (less so because 1 person can only do so much when you're competing against several people). I remember bickering about this on GS and I had more in the list but that's all I can think of for now.

I voted but I don't feel strongly either way. If someone does, they should speak up. I don't know the logistics of donating internationally but if it's easier and means more money goes to the charity because of fees, then I'm happy to just donate to whichever one you choose.

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/sports/podium/107/guillaume-cizeron-gabriella-papadakis-patinage-artistique-danse-jeux-olympiques-pyeongchang-tessa-virtue-scott-moir-medaille-robe Interesting interview with Papadakis/Cizeron

https://www.rt.com/sport/457410-elena-ilinykh-retirement-rumors/amp/ Such a shame that they broke up. They were so good when they were so young. I like them more than either of the top Russian teams now. It's hard not to think "what if".

Funny, I've been thinking about the goat debate as well as famous people who were fans of Yuzu and was about to start threads on it. Third time something like this has happened this month. Don't have time to contribute much to the discussion now Just popped in because this came up on my Google news feed. https://www.factmag.com/2019/04/24/kelly-moran-origin/ Never heard of Kelly Moran but I assume she's at least somewhat famous. I've also been looking for that Boris Becker retweet of Yuzu's Laureus message. Probably an indication of being a fan unless he did that for all the Laureus stuff.

Tbh, I giggled a little at those gifs. Part of me thinks, "this must be sarcastic. how can this person possibly think this is good?" but then I realized that these are actually the best examples of Nathan's spread eagles . I personally find the "balletic" spread eagles funnier - essentially just simple 2 foot turns done the exact same way no matter what the music. I'd really like to see Nathan try to emulate even the worst of the other examples. I still like them when used to create a moment but men's skating seems to be saturated by mediocre ones used as program filler so skaters can pretend they're artistic.

8 Years! Is it some sort of advanced subject or just because he's part time?

It's not hard to see who most benefits from eliminating steps before jump requirement. Though I suppose judges almost never followed that rule anyway so I guess it made no real difference in practice. I think the only time I've ever seen judges deduct for it is in Yuzu's COC(?) performance of Etude eta: counter argument to myself. But perhaps the possibility of a deduction was enough to discourage skaters from doing jumps that are more difficult from steps. Maybe it's the difference between attempting a 4lz vs a 4t from steps. It gives a lot more strategic flexibility. eta 2: counter to my counter. But it never stopped them in the past, so I guess not. As long as the judges didn't punish for the lack of steps, the skater never fixed it.

I was just about to watch. Thanks for the heads up. I'm to the point that I'm often annoyed when I see Yuzu get mentioned or his picture posted. It just feels like they're using him for self promotion, especially when they don't have anything new or nice to say about him.

Just came across these tweets by Chibura on spread eagles http://shoma-uno.tumblr.com/tags