The GOAT debate

[makebelieveup]

We all know how dangerous a 4axel is, but to hear from an actual skater about its potential effect on the skater  it is makes me terrified for Yuzu. I agree with Maxim that this sport shouldnt be made so that in order to defeat your opponent you have to break yourself in the process. Would Yuzu have felt the need to attempt the quad lutz if he weren't put in that position in 2017 or thinking he must gain all three new quads next season in order to stay competitive?

 

I think thats what making me lose my initial enjoyment as the sport evolves. And I feel like there is always a disclaimer that needs to be made whenever I make this statement, that I am by no mean advocating for skaters to stop advancing themselves. However, advancing does not only mean to focus on one area among their technical arsenal -- the jumps. In fact, even so, the quality of these jumps have been affected due to the eagerness to achieve them in a short amount of time because what is happening is everyone is trying to beat each other that there is not enough time for thr trial and error process (esp if you are older), hence, decreasing the amount of time to put in the effort to refine these jumps. When quantity is rewarded over quality, there is no incentive to stop, take a step back and evaluate what needs to be improved. I have only seen a few skaters who took their time to do this and Yuzu being one of the primary examples. Or someone like Korstonaia is admirable because she really works on every area and hasnt pushed herself to do a 3a in comp because it hasnt worked out for her. I would like to see skaters work on their step sequence, flow, quality of the spins or jumps, and just look more 'ready' going into a competition knowing those blades are waiting for them, you know. and since I guess all of this has been touched on to death, I just kinda want to bring up these following discussional questions.

 

Plushenko once said Yuzu is a better skater than he is because the sport is an evolving sport -- people will progress. But what do you guys think? Will obtaining a Quad Lutz or Quad Axel makes Yuzu/a skater in general better? And there was a comment I read a couple days ago on The FreeSkate video about Hanyu vs Chen at Worlds and one of the persons commented along the lines of how the term GOAT is funny because its only referring up until this time. So if someone can beat Yuzu in the future they can be the GOAT as well. Of course its difficult to compare skaters from different eras, but I really think people have greatly misunderstood why many people think Yuzu is the GOAT of the sport and not just because he is the 2x OGM. I really want to hear from you guys and know what this GOAT thing really means, so maybe we need to cover our argument better than just bringing up his gold medals as the first argument ground. 

 

1. Are athletes in sport/figure skating always progressing? 

2. What makes a skater the GOAT? Does this term truly mean much since its accounting the future/unknown.

[eagle]

To be 2X Olympic champ in the modern era is already a feat since no male skater managed to do it since Dick Button. Because it is much harder to be 2X OG champ in this era than Dick Button's time.

 

So, in order for the next competitor to beat Yuzuru, they have to win OG Gold 3X, not counting team event. In which in the current system extremely hard to achieve. It took 66 years from Dick Button before Yuzuru did it. 

 

Who knows how many more years before the next male skater is able to win 2X, we wouldnt be around to see it anyway

 

[SuperMin]

36 minutes ago, makebelieveup said:

We all know how dangerous a 4axel is, but to hear from an actual skater about its potential effect on the skater  it is makes me terrified for Yuzu. I agree with Maxim that this sport shouldnt be made so that in order to defeat your opponent you have to break yourself in the process. Would Yuzu have felt the need to attempt the quad lutz if he weren't put in that position in 2017 or thinking he must gain all three new quads next season in order to stay competitive?

 

I think thats what making me lose my initial enjoyment as the sport evolves. And I feel like there is always a disclaimer that needs to be made whenever I make this statement, that I am by no mean advocating for skaters to stop advancing themselves. However, advancing does not only mean to focus on one area among their technical arsenal -- the jumps. In fact, even so, the quality of these jumps have been affected due to the eagerness to achieve them in a short amount of time because what is happening is everyone is trying to beat each other that there is not enough time for thr trial and error process (esp if you are older), hence, decreasing the amount of time to put in the effort to refine these jumps. When quantity is rewarded over quality, there is no incentive to stop, take a step back and evaluate what needs to be improved. I have only seen a few skaters who took their time to do this and Yuzu being one of the primary examples. Or someone like Korstonaia is admirable because she really works on every area and hasnt pushed herself to do a 3a in comp because it hasnt worked out for her. I would like to see skaters work on their step sequence, flow, quality of the spins or jumps, and just look more 'ready' going into a competition knowing those blades are waiting for them, you know. and since I guess all of this has been touched on to death, I just kinda want to bring up these following discussional questions.

 

Plushenko once said Yuzu is a better skater than he is because the sport is an evolving sport -- people will progress. But what do you guys think? Will obtaining a Quad Lutz or Quad Axel make Yuzu/a skater in general better? And there was a comment I read a couple days ago on The FreeSkate video about Hanyu vs Chen at Worlds and one of the persons commented along the lines of how the term GOAT is funny because its only referring up until this time. So if someone can beat Yuzu in the future they can be a GOAT as well. Of course its difficult to compare skaters from different eras, but I really think people have greatly misunderstood why many people think Yuzu is the GOAT of the sport and not just because he is the 2x OGM. I really want to hear from you guys and know what this GOAT thing really means, so maybe we need to cover our argument better than just bringing up his gold medals as the first argument ground. 

 

1. Are athletes in sport/figure skating always progressing? 

2. What makes a skater a GOAT? Does this term truly mean much since its accounting the future/unknown.

1.  In short, yes, to some degree.  Technology aids the evolution of human sciences to achieve more in most sports, not just figure skating.  Quads are a good example of this- now compared to a decade ago.

2. IMO- GOAT represents 2 main concepts.  1st advancing the sport with new techniques and feats and 2nd achieving feats that others have not. In that sense, GOAT isn’t just a person, it’s the history of that person.  It is inevitable, that Yuzu will get beaten, his longevity in this sport up to now has been a bit of a miracle. However, the GOAT title comes with matching or exceeding his lifetime feats and no one currently skating is even close to that (e.g.  world record, number for “firsts”, medals galore which includes the 2 OGMs...etc...)

 

 

As for the quad axel- I don’t believe Yuzu needs it to be the GOAT.  I think he’s continuing to do what GOATs do, which is advance the sport to new horizons. 

[Henni147]

18 hours ago, micaelis said:

Thoughts on Yuzu and Nessie - I am actually hoping some other skater hits the 4A first.  I know that's rank heresy here but I'd hate to see Yuzu killing his skating career by getting some injury incurred while pursuing the 4A.  There is more to the future of skating than a 4A and I think if that challenge is removed from the table Yuzu can focus on those other aspects of skating, many of which he is already the clear master.  His advantage lies not only with his command of the PCS elements but also in his ability to make jumps that are not only technically perfect but an integral part of his programs.  Yuzu's ability to handle dense, detailed choreography is one that gives him an advantage over most other skaters.  Given all that I think it would be to his long-term advantage to concentrate on putting together and performing programs that would establish his reputation as a 'poet on ice'.

 

If I got Yuzu right, he said after the Olympics that the 4A and the total package are his key motivations to continue with competitive skating. He wants to land the 4A in competition, even if he's not the first to accomplish it. It's something that he wants to do for himself. So we can just cross our fingers that the skating gods have mercy with him and protect him from another career threatning injury, when he attacks Nessie.

I pray that his ankle will survive the last seasons of his competitive career and Yuzu will be healthy enough to do shows and skate for himself as long as he likes. As much as I love to watch him compete, my favorite Yuzu is the free and unhibited Yuzu in exhibitions and shows, where he jumps and skates as he wants. No rules, no restrictions. Just top quality skating from another planet.

 

@makebelieveup 

EDIT If you look at pole vaulting, it took 20 years until Sergey Bubka's world record of 6.15m was broken by Renaud Lavillenie with 6.16m. In ski jumping we had to wait 16 years that someone could win all events at the Four Hills Tournament again. Neither sport has suffered in popularity.

Records are great, but they don't have to come all the time. I would even say that it's better, if records are rare. That makes them extra special.

 

My personal understanding of the term "G.O.A.T." in sports context is the following:

1. Master (dominant in present)

Master a sport in all technical and artistic aspects. Yes, for me sports like athletics, swimming, tennis etc. have an artistic value as well: It's not a coincidence that swimmers with the most beautiful technique and posture are the fastest, too. Mother nature had the great idea to combine beauty and efficiency. Sport is body art at the same time.

2. Ambassador (engraved in history)

Move a mass of people all over the world independent from gender, age or nationality and create magic moments that will be remembered, rewatched, discussed and celebrated forever.

3. Hero (inspiring the future)

Inspire new young talents to dive into a sport and become the champions of tomorrow. A sport always needs heroes whom children can look up to. As athletes and characters.

 

Yuzu hits all three aspects. He is the best allrounder on the ice, has one of the biggest and most dedicated fanbases of any sport and he has inspired countless young talents to become figure skaters. I remember all the little flower girls, little Voronov, Sasha Plushenko, Tomoki, Gogolev, Grassl and many many others praising and adoring Yuzu. A skater who inspires an entire era of young athletes, is a GOAT for sure.

[Yuzurella]

On 4/24/2019 at 4:58 PM, makebelieveup said:

We all know how dangerous a 4axel is, but to hear from an actual skater saying how dangerous it is makes me terrified for Yuzu. I agree with Maxim that this sport shouldnt be made so that in order to defeat your opponent you have to break yourself in the process. Would Yuzu had felt the need to attempt the quad lutz if he weren't put in that position in 2017 or thinking he must gain all three new quads next season in order to stay competitive?

 

I think thats what making me lose my initial enjoyment as the sport evolves. And I feel like there is always a disclaimer that needs to be made whenever I make this statement, that I am by no mean advocating for skaters to stop advancing themselves. However, advancing does not only mean to focus on one area among their technical arsenal -- the jumps. In fact, even so, the quality of these jumps have been affected due to the eagerness to achieve them in a short amount of time because what is happening is everyone is trying to beat each other that there is not time for real trial and error process, hence, decreasing the amount of time to put in the effort to refine these jumps. When quantity is rewarded over quality, there is no incentive to stop, take a step back and evaluate what needs to be improved. I have only seen a few skaters who only really took their time to do this and Yuzu being one of the primary examples. Or someone like Korstonaia is admirable because she really worked on every areas and didnt jump to do a 3a because it hasnt worked out for her. I would like to see skaters work on their step sequence, flow, quality of the spins or jumps, and just look more 'ready' going into a competition knowing those blades are waiting for them you know. and since I guess all of this has been touched on to death, I just kinda want to bring up this discussional question. Plushenko once said Yuzu is a better skater than he is because the sport is an evolving sport. People will progress. But what do you guys think? Will obtaining a Quad Lutz or Quad Axel make Yuzu/a skater in general better? And there was a comment I read a couple days ago on The FreeSkate video about Hanyu vs Chen at Worlds and one of the persons commented along the lines of how the term GOAT is funny because its only referring up until this time. So if someone can beat Yuzu in the future they can be a GOAT as well. Of course its difficult to compare skaters from different eras, but I really think people have greatly misunderstood why many people think Yuzu is the GOAT of the sport and not just because he is the 2x OGM. I really want to hear from you guys and know what this GOAT thing really means, so maybe we need to cover our argument better than just bringing up his gold medals as the first argument ground. 

 

1. Are athletes in sport/figure skating always progressing? 

2. What makes a skater a GOAT? Does this term truly mean much since its accounting the future/unknown.

 

1. Regarding your first question, I'd say that in general, a sport always progresses and this progression is generally a good thing. The issue is how far can humans really go without damaging their bodies severely or using dangerous and illegal methods like doping. I think in most sports that limit is already coming close or has already been reached.

Figure skating is a special case because it's not just about running faster or jumping higher. The sport is every complex and those who are more familiar with it know that it's by far not just about the jumps. But the jumps are the part that stands out the most. For most casual viewers, if they see a program with (seemingly) clean jumps and a half-decent performance, they are convinced that this skater should receive high scores and/or win. And especially if the media are glorifying a certain aspect of a very complex sport like it has been the case in the US with all this hype around quads, quads, quads, the public also start to believe that quads are the most important measurement in figure skating.

In theory, the system of judging and scoring should take into the consideration the complex nature of figure skating and the fact that jumps are not the only important factor of measurement. Theoretically, things like spins, skating skills, transitions etc. should be rewarded more. And in theory, the high quality of elements should also be rewarded.

The new scoring system was introduced to exactly do that, namely reward quality. Unfortunately, what has happened instead is that this new system rewards skaters for a high number of different and difficult quads even more, regardless of the quality of execution. It's like, even if the landings are bad, there is a long preparation phase for going into jumps or underrotations, it doesn't matter as long as a skater lands the quads. This system creates room for even more biased and skewed scoring than before.

At the same time, someone like Yuzu, who as achieved this complete package as a skater more than anyone else, who is a far superior skater to anyone else, is punished because he doesn't have quads like 4Lz and 4F. Again, in theory skaters should be scored based on their strengths in different areas of this sport, but this isn't happening. Having multiple quads, even bad quality ones, has become the most important factor to get a high score and win a competition.

Yuzu was already often underscored in the old system considering his superior quality in all aspects of skating. In this new system, he is more disadvantaged than ever. This is why he has also come to the conclusion that in order to win, in order to force those judges to give him high scores, he needs to upgrade his arsenal and get those quads with higher points.

Yuzu shouldn't have to. If the judging and scoring would actually be based on ISU guidelines (and disregard athletes' nationalities), Yuzu should be able to get high scores and win comfortably due to high excellence and superior quality of elements. But unfortunately that's not the case.

I just hope that he takes things slowly and doesn't put too much pressure on his body, thus risking another injury. The 4A has been his dream for a very long time anyway. So, I'm sure he would pursue it regardless of the results at WC 2019. And 4Lz and 4F... well I try to think positively and considering Yuzu's ambition to be the best he can be, it might actually be a point of pride for him to get all the quads. Like I said, I just hope he takes his time and doesn't push himself for quick results.

The way figure skating is developing, I'm afraid that the focus lies more than ever on jumps. In fact, young skaters have less and less incentive to focus on other aspects of skating. The other big issue is of course that more and more young skaters push their bodies relentlessly and that results in injuries and short careers. In the long term, this might lead to this sport becoming "ice jumping". I just hope that if that should happen, Yuzu will already be retired having achieved everything he's ever wanted to achieve and content with his legacy and - most importantly - healthy and happy.

 

2. For me, Yuzu is the GOAT because he simply is the most superior skater ever. Regardless of which aspect of figure skating we're talking about, Yuzu simply has the complete package. He has reached levels of skating that no one has reached before. I honestly don't think that anyone will ever surpass him as a whole package skater in a very, very long time, maybe never.

Of course other skaters might do more quads or get higher scores or beat Yuzu in competitions, but for me that wouldn't make them the new GOAT. A skater would have to offer a complete package on as high or an even higher level of excellence for as long as Yuzu has done in order to become that new GOAT. And the way figure skating is going with quantity being more highly valued than quality, I'm afraid careers will become shorter and shorter. As a result, the possibility of another skater achieving the excellence of Yuzu and having a career that comes even close to Yuzu's will be even less likely.

[Anki]

48 minutes ago, makebelieveup said:

Plushenko once said Yuzu is a better skater than he is because the sport is an evolving sport -- people will progress. But what do you guys think? Will obtaining a Quad Lutz or Quad Axel make Yuzu/a skater in general better? And there was a comment I read a couple days ago on The FreeSkate video about Hanyu vs Chen at Worlds and one of the persons commented along the lines of how the term GOAT is funny because its only referring up until this time. So if someone can beat Yuzu in the future they can be a GOAT as well. Of course its difficult to compare skaters from different eras, but I really think people have greatly misunderstood why many people think Yuzu is the GOAT of the sport and not just because he is the 2x OGM. I really want to hear from you guys and know what this GOAT thing really means, so maybe we need to cover our argument better than just bringing up his gold medals as the first argument ground. 

 

1. Are athletes in sport/figure skating always progressing? 

2. What makes a skater a GOAT? Does this term truly mean much since its accounting the future/unknown.

 

There is never an agreed definition of GOAT, whether in skating or other sports, because all fans will go with the definition that suits their favourite. However, in terms of being remembered  many years later, there are really mainly three things  -  memorable programs that defined the skater (and this is a combination of both artistry and quality technique), the count of gold medals (as this is the only thing comparable across eras, with Olympic gold being most important) and whether you are the first to achieve a certain milestone or specific type of jumps (although not an absolute necessity).  Yuzu has already met all three criteria many times. 

 

Whether someone leaves a lasting impression requires a combination of these things over a whole career, and not just one competition.  The marks you get or how many quads you jumped doesn't mean much 20 years later, because the scoring system would have changed and future skaters will be jumping even more quads due to advance in equipment technology and coaches' experience. But the first person to achieve something will forever go down in history, which is why Yuzu wants that quad axel so much I guess, although even without it he is already in history, being the first to jump 4L, the first ever Asian Olympic male single winner and the only double one since Dick Button.   

 

And any discourse about if Yuzu is the GOAT, then anyone who beats him is also the GOAT is pure nonsense, or propaganda to to prop someone else as the GOAT when they are not deserving of that title yet. If both skater A and B beats Yuzu in a competition, then are they both GOAT? and then skater B gets beaten by skater C, does that mean skater C is also the GOAT ?  you can't have that many GOATs. Skater A, B and C will need as many achievements over a career as Yuzu does to be even considered. Just one or two dominant season is not enough. For example Chan and Medvedeva both had multiples seasons where they seem totally unbeatable and everyone say they will become the greatest skater ever, but today no one will consider them for GOATs. Why?  because of the lack of Olympic gold (which goes to show how much this medal means in figure skating). 

 

[Lambari]

I'm one of those that consider 'GOAT' a generational title. A few fans and notoriously the media prefer to define it as a static/once-and-for-all title, especially because it's  more natural as a fan to extrapolate your experience in a particular skating era to all of them as it's incredibly difficult to imagine a reality apart from your own.   Questions like "Now is he the greatest ever?"   "Will there EVER be something better than this?" are born from this notion. Sometimes as media hype, sometimes as genuine debate. And there's also the emotional aspect of expecting that your favourite skater will forever be the definite golden standard.  Of course, there's fans that have been watching skating for 50, 60, 70 years, hence they are probably able to have a broader view of skating than most but regardless we all have our favourites, that's human nature.   These questions are part of sports in general, linked to the  culture of comparing athletes and cherishing our heros. They also highlight the significance of particular performances/skating careers during a timeline, so they do have their purpose.

 

But truthfully, in my opinion the answers of these questions don't matter that much.  I think the biggest aspects to define GOATs are memorable performances and dominance.   By dominance I don't mean only medals, hence why I don't agree with the thought that  "To be considered the GOAT X skater needs to win 3 Olympics!"  I believe that if for example a skater wins 1 or 2 Olympics and 1 World title in the future at an even more competitive era than today while leaving a similarly enourmous  lasting impact on the sport as Yuzuru did he will be considered the GOAT during his era and deservingly so. But this could be any combination of medals, the key is having an accomplished career, performances that will withstand the test of time and being the gold standard of that era.   

 

Skating will evolve. Who knows if skaters from now on, aided by the advancement in sports medicine and technology will be able to do one 4A, three 4Lz, and one 4F on a single free skate or even new types of jumps, together with great skating skills and performance ability...   Really, who would've thought in 2000 that 18 years after 4 quads programs would be the ideal for gold?  Or that a few skaters could actually do them with artistic quality?  

 

Skating obviously already evolved quite a lot, mostly due to the implementation of IJS. Regardless of the hard feelings for the system, the outlining of the different aspects in skating instead of giving an arbitrary "5.8"  without any explanation really made a difference in how the new crop of skaters began to develop.   The fact that there was an attempt to differentiate the components, the elements and how it could influence your score was huge. It's only natural that step sequences today are overall much complex due to the requirements than they were 20 years ago in Plushenko/Yagudin's era, that different jump entries/less telegraphing are more common today in order to elevate GOE etc.   I don't know which type of skater Yuzuru would grow out to be if he didn't skate the majority of his career under IJS.  Definitely as brilliant as ever, but under different standards.   Maybe in the future with skating rules being so volatile we will have a completely different judging system.  And the development of young skaters will change once again, for the pleasure of some and the dismay of others.  Also, with skating being a very 'momentum-based' sport, that places great value on the 'short' and fickle 4 year Olympic cycle, and with most singles skaters retiring when they hit late 20's, there's no guarantee that the standard won't change as the sport evolves and crowns new champions. 

 

 It's also important how you leave the sport.  Leaving while at the top can help to keep the public imagination going.  A skater leaving after a few seasons struggling for medals isn't as flashy or interesting for some.  I don't care much for this since nothing can erase their past accomplishments and competing for the love of the sport and other personal goals is commendable, but there's no doubt that this phenomenon exists. Someone said here that you can hardly find anyone that would consider Patrick Chan the GOAT but there are fans that do, certainly.  His disputed Worlds titles and overall score inflation certainly didn't help with that, but the narrative became even less popular once he made his comeback at the heat of the 'quad revolution' and wasn't the top pick for gold anymore.  Yuzuru mentioned once how he saw how difficult it is when you take a season off to return to the public eye as a real contender, and that's part of the reason why he didn't take any time off and continued to improve his technnical content.   Yuzuru strikes me as someone that will want to undoubtely leave while at the top.  People like to joke that he will compete until his body gives in completely but I don't think so. For me it's much more likely that he will leave when he won't be able to contend for the top anymore due to his injuries. With his remarks after Worlds it seems that competing without any clear shot at gold seems aimless to him.  

 

To finish, I do consider GOAT a generational title, but it doesn't mean that we as fans can't have our own "forever GOAT's".  I highly doubt that there will be a men's skater that will make a more lasting impression on me than he did.  Even if the technnical requirements and performance standards reach new heights in the future, Yuzuru's impact on this era is timeless and that's what will stand once he decides to say goodbye to the sport once and for all. 

[mercedes]

I knew there was a reason why I liked Jim Parsons(apart for the most obvious one of course)!

Baryshnikov on ice is perfect,I was watching some old videos of Misha last evening they both have that boyish charm,perfect technique and total devotion to their art.

 

And to me a Goat (as silly as it sounds because in italian when you call someone a goat it's not a compliment at all)is someone who does not only excel in their chosen discipline,it's a person who leads life with a certain amount of ethics and has something to say.

[KatjaThera]

I admit, I didn't read each post in detail, so I might repeat what others have said.

 

IMO, pushing the sport technically, by doing new jumps is a good thing. The quads are a good thing. 4A, when it comes, will be a good thing. Quints, if they come will also be a good thing. The problem isn't the jumps. The problem is how different skaters and skater-coach combinations approach them. If jumps are learned properly, with good technique, taking one's time and learning to do them as safely as possible, with the best quality and with hard work on incorporating them into a cohesive program, then jumps are great. However, it's true that many skaters now are learning them very fast, who cares about technique and why bother incorporating? They just jump for the sake of jumping. That is the problem and it's one perpetuated by skaters, their coaches and the ISU. But that doesn't mean the jumps and wanting to have them are bad things. I personally have little doubt that if Yuzu got 4A, even without WC2019, even if he had kept his zen mindframe from before ACI, he also would have wanted to get all the other quads. I can imagine he might find it challenging to do a program with all quads and still maintain artistry. Because you can be sure he would try his hardest to do so. How much that's possible, who knows? I personally think that if Yuzu doesn't try it, we'll never know. Because nobody else is as close to 4A and nobody else is as dedicated to making jumps part of the choreography.

 

Also, I get it that a lot of fans are traumatized about the lutz. And him doing the lutz again is an issue because of the strain it puts on his ankle. But the injury at NHK 17 was not because of the lutz. It could have happened on any other jump. In fact, he fell on pretty much every jump that day and he really should not have tried jumping at all. He fell and hurt himself because he was in a bad shape. It could have been on a sal or a loop or a toeloop or even an axel. Bad falls can happen on any jump. Severe accidents can happen on any jump. It doesn't have to be a 4Lz or a 4A or anything like that. Yuzu probably knows the risks better than anyone else, for all jumps, anyway, due to his studies. I'm sure he's analyzed it all, in order to find the best way to do things so as to minimize the risk of falling and worsening his ankle, and also in order to protect it as much as possible.

 

He wants the 4A and I hope he gets it, exactly as he wants it, because to him, it's worth it. Just like risking it all for the Olympics was worth it. And that's really all that matters, whether it's worth it to him.

 

Additionally, I get why people love seeing him in ice shows and exhibitions, but I think that's missing a big part. Yuzu is a competitor. He loves to compete, he lives to compete. Yes, he's free to try things in exhibitions and ice shows, but it's in competitions that he really comes alive in every way. That is, I think, where he is all Yuzuru Hanyu, where he puts all of himself into it. I personally worry a bit about the day when he retires, because I think he'll be a bit lost when it happens. He's been competing most of his life, so when that will suddenly vanish, it'll probably be pretty hard on him. I'm sure he'll come through and delight us with more exquisite performances, but right now, I think he needs to compete for as long as he still can (like Javi said, he probably will for as long as his body will hold up).

 

As for GOAT, to me it simply means what it says. The greatest of all time. It's probably unfair to compare across generations, because who's to say a 20 something Dick Button, if he existed today, wouldn't be able to do everything Yuzu does and more? But with things as they are, Yuzu is the most complete skater so far. Maybe Dick could do quads if he were part of his generation, but he's not. And when he was skating, he did tremendous things, but he did not do what Yuzu can. I'm with Plush on this. As the sport advances technically, whoever is the most complete skater of his generation is also the GOAT. The key word is complete though. Technically - jumps, spins, steps - and artistically. And that is pretty rare, actually.

 

Honestly, Nathan (or anyone) could go on to win 5 OGMs and 10 WCs. If he continues skating without working on artistry and steps and sticks to just jumps and a bit of fun-looking crossovers and posturing, that will never be a GOAT material to me. Honestly, right now, anyone aspiring to be a GOAT will have to make jumps appear part of the choreography and look as effortless as breathing at the very least. Yuzu set too high standards. Until that happens, they can jump sixtuples, if it's just jumps, it's meaningless, IMO.

[surfaçage]

2 hours ago, Lambari said:

I'm one of those that consider 'GOAT' a generational title. A few fans and notoriously the media prefer to define it as a static/once-and-for-all title, especially because it's  more natural as a fan to extrapolate your experience in a particular skating era to all of them as it's incredibly difficult to imagine a reality apart from your own.   Questions like "Now is he the greatest ever?"   "Will there EVER be something better than this?" are born from this notion. Sometimes as media hype, sometimes as genuine debate. And there's also the emotional aspect of expecting that your favourite skater will forever be the definite golden standard.  Of course, there's fans that have been watching skating for 50, 60, 70 years, hence they are probably able to have a broader view of skating than most but regardless we all have our favourites, that's human nature.   These questions are part of sports in general, linked to the  culture of comparing athletes and cherishing our heros. They also highlight the significance of particular performances/skating careers during a timeline, so they do have their purpose.

 

But truthfully, in my opinion the answers of these questions don't matter that much.  I think the biggest aspect to define GOATs are memorable performances and dominance.   By dominance I don't mean only medals, hence why I don't agree with the thought that  "To be considered the GOAT X skater needs to win 3 Olympics!"  I believe that if for example a skater wins 1 or 2 Olympics and 1 World title in the future at an even more competitive era than today while leaving a similarly enourmous  lasting impact on the sport as Yuzuru did he will be considered the GOAT during his era and deservingly so. But this could be any combination of medals, the key is having an accomplished career, performances that will stand the test of time and being the gold standard of that era.   

 

Skating will evolve. Who knows if skaters from now on, aided by the advancement in sports medicine and technology will be able to do one 4A, three 4Lz, and one 4F on a single free skate or even new types of jumps, together with great skating skills and performance ability...   Really, who would've thought in 2000 that 18 years after 4 quads programs would be the ideal for gold?  Or that a few skaters could actually do them with artistic quality?  

 

Skating obviously already evolved quite a lot, mostly due to the implementation of IJS. Regardless of the hard feelings for the system, the outlining of the different aspects in skating instead of giving an arbitrary "5.8"  without any explanation really made a difference in how the new crop of skaters began to develop.   The fact that there was an attempt to differentiate the components, the elements and how it could influence your score was huge. It's only natural that step sequences today are overall much complex due to the requirements than they were 20 years ago in Plushenko/Yagudin's era, that different jump entries/less telegraphing are more common today in order to elevate GOE etc.   I don't know which type of skater Yuzuru would grow out to be if he didn't skate the majority of his career under IJS.  Definitely as brilliant as ever, but under different standards.   Maybe in the future with skating rules being so volatile we will have a complete different judging system.  And the development of young skaters will change once again, for the pleasure of some and the dismay of others.  Also, with skating being a very 'momentum-based' sport, that places great value on the 'short' and fickle 4 year Olympic cicle, and with most singles skaters retiring when they hit late 20's, there's no guarantee that the standard won't change as the sport evolves and crowns new champions. 

 

 It's also important how you leave the sport.  Leaving while at the top can help to keep the public imagination going.  A skater leaving after a few seasons struggling for medals isn't as flashy or interesting for some.  I don't care much for this since nothing can erase their past accomplishments and competing for the love of the sport and other personal goals is commendable, but there's no doubt that this phenomenon exists. Someone said here that you can hardly find anyone that would consider Patrick Chan the GOAT but there are fans that do, certainly.  His disputed Worlds titles and overall score inflation certainly didn't help with that, but the narrative became even less popular once he made his comeback at the heat of the 'quad revolution' and wasn't the top pick for gold anymore.  Yuzuru mentioned once how he saw how difficult it is when you take a season off to return to the public eye as a real contender, and that's part of the reason why he didn't take any time off and continued to improve his technnical content.   Yuzuru strikes me as someone that will want to undoubtely leave while at the top.  People like to joke that he will compete until his body gives in completely but I don't think so. For me it's much more likely that he will leave when he won't be able to contend for the top anymore due to his injuries. With his remarks after Worlds it seems that competing without any clear shot at gold seems aimless to him.  

 

To finish, I do consider GOAT a generational title, but it doesn't mean that we as fans can't have our own "forever GOAT's".  I highly doubt that there will be a men's skater that will make a more lasting impression on me than he did.  Even if the technnical requirements and performance standards reach new heights in the future, Yuzuru's impact on this era is timeless and that's what will stand once he decides to say goodbye to the sport once and for all. 

agreed with everything said.

But to be honest, i dont know and i dont care  if YH is the GOAT. All i know is that i am happy when i see him skate and happier when he wins.

As for the 4A, as long as he wants it for himself  i am ok for I trust his judgement.

And that is the only thing that can be done by the way.

 

 

 

 

  

[makebelieveup]

Thank you so much everyone who responded so far. I really enjoyed reading all of them and I agree with many people. Just to be a bit more redundant by answering my own questions.

 

I personally think Yuzu is a better skater than Plushenko not because the sport is progressing since many skaters now do jumps with a higher base value but don't necessarily jump them with the correct technique or execute them with the same quality as past skaters. On top of this, other aspects of their programs have been sacrificed due to this focus on the jumps. The sport isn't really advancing just because top skaters are breaking records. Was Zhenya better than Yuna when she broke her record? Is Alina the GOAT for having won everything at 16? To me, the answer is 'no'. The sport can only advance if what we're seeing reflect the achievements that are being given out. Likewise, the skater is only the GOAT if what they give out reflect what they've achieved. 

 

I think Yuzu is a better skater than Plushenko simply because he is a more complete skater in every area. If there is a skater who can do every aspect with better quality than Yuzu does, then I'd say he is the new GOAT even if he doesn't have an OGM. Because at this point, medals don't mean so much to me neither do scores if the system doesn't give them out correctly. This is actually something I really want to let non Yuzu fans/antis know, that I don't mind someone beating Yuzu, or even surpassing him as a skater. In fact, that's something to be celebrated because that would mean the sport is truly advancing. The reason why many fans were outraged with ISU when Yuzu lost isn't because he lost but how the unfair it all was. Looking back, Boston was probably a more depressing event for the fans but it was never something I felt bitter about because I thought the competition was somewhat fairer. 

 

I also agree with @Lambari that the term GOAT should be given out generationally. It can't and will never be definitive. I thought long and hard on how should this be defined and came up with a couple of criteria such as longevity (the amount of years a skater could podium), dominance (their margin of win/ceiling scores compared to others in a competition), accreditations (like titles/scores/records), impact (how many young skaters they inspire/how they push this sport technically and artistically), star quality (this is a bit subjective but i'm guessing their ability to bring in the crowds/audience), legacy (how many programs are remembered/ how much are they remembered by/what they would leave behind for the sport). We can look at this as GOE bullets. Some skaters can get 3, others 4, but they can't get all of this like Yuzu. In fact, the first three criteria could be gifted and not earned. 

 

2 hours ago, KatjaThera said:

Also, I get it that a lot of fans are traumatized about the lutz. And him doing the lutz again is an issue because of the strain it puts on his ankle. But the injury at NHK 17 was not because of the lutz. It could have happened on any other jump. In fact, he fell on pretty much every jump that day and he really should not have tried jumping at all. He fell and hurt himself because he was in a bad shape. It could have been on a sal or a loop or a toeloop or even an axel. Bad falls can happen on any jump. Severe accidents can happen on any jump. It doesn't have to be a 4Lz or a 4A or anything like that. Yuzu probably knows the risks better than anyone else, for all jumps, anyway, due to his studies. I'm sure he's analyzed it all, in order to find the best way to do things so as to minimize the risk of falling and worsening his ankle, and also in order to protect it as much as possible.

 

 

I'm actually pretty encouraged to hear this. I don't have the heart to watch his NHK17 practice, so I didn't really know that all of his other jumps also didn't work out that day. I heard he was jetlagged. I think it's the same at Cor18. Hope he will learn from these experiences. I hope the 4Lz won't become a psychological issue for Yuzu. Maybe having injured by the 4Loop and gaining it back in one season might help Yuzu get back some confidence that he would be able to regain his 4Lz as well. If I remember correctly, he said something this season like he could probably get the 4Lz back if he practices a couple of months?

 

Please let me know if anyone can confirm this/reference me the link. 

 

32 minutes ago, Nighticeswan said:

About the 4A.

 

Before I knew about Yuzuru I was really depressed. Seeing his beauty, grace, and power on the ice gave me hope for life. I chased after this idea of being "free". At the time I thought that meant having no anxiety and feeling unburdened.

 

During Rostelcom I prayed if Yuzuru was hurt he wouldn't skate. But, he did anyway. Over the next couple of days I came to the conclusion being free meant if you felt convicted about something (like Yuzuru about skating in Russia) that you do it regardless of what you "should" do or what people might think about it.

 

Yuzuru taught me that lesson, so I want him to continue being free. I pray he'll get that quad axel if that is what he wants.

Thank you for praying for Yuzu. I also do the same every night. 

 

2 hours ago, KatjaThera said:

Additionally, I get why people love seeing him in ice shows and exhibitions, but I think that's missing a big part. Yuzu is a competitor. He loves to compete, he lives to compete. Yes, he's free to try things in exhibitions and ice shows, but it's in competitions that he really comes alive in every way. That is, I think, where he is all Yuzuru Hanyu, where he puts all of himself into it. I personally worry a bit about the day when he retires, because I think he'll be a bit lost when it happens. He's been competing most of his life, so when that will suddenly vanish, it'll probably be pretty hard on him. I'm sure he'll come through and delight us with more exquisite performances, but right now, I think he needs to compete for as long as he still can (like Javi said, he probably will for as long as his body will hold up).

 

Yeah I think Yuzu is addicted to competing and winning, but if he could win the 3rd Olympic gold medal I hope he would feel complete. He once said PC was his midpoint and at that time he already felt happiness, so I trust that Beijing (if it happens) will be enough to close his competitive career. At the end of the day, he got what he could ever dream of getting and more through all of the effort he has put out (though what he deserved to have is even more than this). I think perhaps Yuzu will get withdrawal syndrome for a period, but seeing how talented and genius of a person he is, outside of competitive skating, he's capable of doing so many other interesting things. From what I've read, I don't think he would only focus on one thing, he's been a philanthropist, a producer, he did acting before, he's done music editing for his program, he coached younger skaters before, puts his voices into the making of his costumes and choreography...I'm sure he will find these things interesting at some point post-retirement. 

[Whee1000]

2 hours ago, surfaçage said:

I'm one of those that consider 'GOAT' a generational title.

Your consideration sort of reminds me of a title which has always intrigued me :"Prima Ballerina Assoluta."

 

Prima ballerina assoluta is a title awarded to the most notable of female ballet dancers. To be recognised as a prima ballerina assoluta is a rare honour, traditionally reserved only for the most exceptional dancers of their generation.

 

 

[eagle]

8 hours ago, Anki said:

 

 

And any discourse about if Yuzu is the GOAT, then anyone who beats him is also the GOAT is pure nonsense, or propaganda to to prop someone else as the GOAT when they are not deserving of that title yet. If both skater A and B beats Yuzu in a competition, then are they both GOAT? and then skater B gets beaten by skater C, does that mean skater C is also the GOAT ?  you can't have that many GOATs. Skater A, B and C will need as many achievements over a career as Yuzu does to be even considered. Just one or two dominant season is not enough. For example Chan and Medvedeva both had multiples seasons where they seem totally unbeatable and everyone say they will become the greatest skater ever, but today no one will consider them for GOATs. Why?  because of the lack of Olympic gold (which goes to show how much this medal means in figure skating). 

 

Not just figure skating, across all Olympic sports. Why is Michael Phelps iconic in swimming? Cos he's a multiple OG gold winner. 

Chris Hoy from track cycling? 2X OG gold in Keirin & Team Sprint.

Lin Dan of badminton ? 2X OG Gold in mens singles. Only men singles to do so thus far.

Kohei Uchimura, gymnastics - 2X OG Gold, All Around

 

In men's single skating,  other than Dick Button & Yuzuru is a Gillis Grafstrom, who won OG gold 3x way back (1920,24,28). Next in line is Plushenko with 1 OG gold, 1 silver(not counting the team event in 2014)

 

So, any challengers need to win 2 OG Gold 1st before can shake hands with mr Button & a bow from Yuzuru. At least 1 individual gold & 1 silver to high 5 with Plushenko

[hoodie axel]

3 hours ago, eagle said:

So, any challengers need to win 2 OG Gold 1st before can shake hands with mr Button & a bow from Yuzuru.

No Gillis Grafström?

[rockstaryuzu]

11 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

No Gillis Grafström?

I think he's dead? He won his medals before WW2. So he can't actually congratulate any winners who match his feat...