36 minutes ago, kaerb said:

Genuinely asking - which jumps did you think were UR? I was looking quite hard (I'm not v good at it yet) bc I know that's an issue but I thought quite a number looked rotated today

they are actually quite easy to spot if you know what you're looking for: 

 

a clean landing looks like this: 

an UR landing looks like this: 

an UR landing doesn't look like: Skates are still in the air, then the landing but rather the skater is still rotating and landing at the same time. Also an UR has a 'hook' on the landing, as seen in Karen's 3T here. 

flying ice is also an indicator for an UR. 

 

It's very hard to determine though, if those 'hooks', 'unclear landings' or the 'flying ice' is really due to an UR, so that's why the Tech Specialist always replay the jumps in slo-mo (you can try it with the youtube videos, too and there it's clear, that Karen's 3Toe was really UR.

 

Satoko's opening 3loop, I'd give her an UR call on her 3toe of the 3lutz-3ote-combo too (but that's a close one), and a definite UR on her 3lutz-2toe-2loop combo, 

 

B.ESP is getting a lot of things right today: 

 

 

Lol I got my wish - there wasn't a single fall during the FS

7 minutes ago, kaerb said:

Hm I think I agree with the 3T. 3Lo and 3Lz second combo I think she was juuust clear (it looked just on or a little <90 degrees). All of the jump landings you pointed out, she's hovering around 90 degrees when she lands which is def the grey area. She's definitely not the only lady who gets away with that though... for now, I'm just happy Wakaba is in GPF and that Satton and Kaori weren't too egregiously underscored in PCS unlike in CoC ;;

 

(it's hard to look via video because the depth perception is so hard to make out! there are moments when it looks like her blade's touched the ice but then the next frame where she's <90 looks like it too)

 

Hahah yea it's really hard to tell from the videos sometimes... I actually thought the Lz from the second 3Lz combo was the clearest UR

Didn't see the end because of connection issues, search for Ashley Wagner when it's back on and see she has withdrawn during her skate?? Poor Ashley. 

 

On a happier note: this was a great day for Japanese skating. Two top spots and a GPF spot. Glad the Japanese audience will have someone to root for apart from Shoma.

23 minutes ago, kaerb said:

Genuinely asking - which jumps did you think were UR? I was looking quite hard (I'm not v good at it yet) bc I know that's an issue but I thought quite a number looked rotated today

 

Eh, with or without using slo-mo?

IMO, obvious without slo-mo: 3Lz3T<, 3F<, 3Lz<2T2Lo<, 2A3T<

 

And to be frank everything inside me fights against the thought of re-watching her jumps in slo-mo, but here goes:

3Lz<3T<

3F<

3Lz<2T2Lo<

2A3T<

3S<

2A<

 

I think the 3Lo might be < as well, but the ankle I have sucks, and I'm too lazy to look that up too.

 

If we also include the "pre-rotation with more then 180° should get a <<" rule, then we have:

3Lz<<3T<<

3F<<

3Lz<<2T2Lo<

2A3T<<

3S<<

2A<

 

Honestly, I'd love someone to show me any rotated triple in there

 

The TP was extremely lenient overall - no flutz call for Kaori or Bradie, no 2A3T< for Polya, just from what I remember without re-watching. But Satokos case is insane. That's one of the most ridiculous cases of judging I've ever seen. She deserves all the respect for coming back like this and her fighting spirit and determination, but if there is no rotation, there is no rotation

36 minutes ago, katonice said:

What's with the announcer in the arena? "Photographers are so fussy... Smile ladies... SMILE, SMILE, SMILE..." 

 

Talk about clueless. Given the ongoing stream of sexual harassment stories coming to light now, that's the last thing anyone should be saying to women.

Just a theory, but I think that Satoko and Kaori's big scores were given to make sure a Japanese lady (or two) make it to the final since it is in Japan and all

15 minutes ago, Eclair said:

they are actually quite easy to spot if you know what you're looking for: 

 

a clean landing looks like this: 

an UR landing looks like this: 

an UR landing doesn't look like: Skates are still in the air, then the landing but rather the skater is still rotating and landing at the same time. Also an UR has a 'hook' on the landing, as seen in Karen's 3T here. 

flying ice is also an indicator for an UR. 

 

It's very hard to determine though, if those 'hooks', 'unclear landings' or the 'flying ice' is really due to an UR, so that's why the Tech Specialist always replay the jumps in slo-mo (you can try it with the youtube videos, too and there it's clear, that Karen's 3Toe was really UR.

 

Satoko's opening 3loop, I'd give her an UR call on her 3toe of the 3lutz-3ote-combo too (but that's a close one), and a definite UR on her 3lutz-2toe-2loop combo, 

 

B.ESP is getting a lot of things right today: 

 

Also @Joey since you're making similar points

 

Isn't UR (<) called if it's 1/4 turn (90 degrees) > 1/2 turn (180 degrees)? ie. where she lands at or slightly under 90 degrees is technically not UR (even though it's not ideal at all)? That's why I thought there was a grey area (granted I think they should be dinged more on their GOEs since I don't think it should get as many marks as a truly 'clean' landing). I can clearly see she's not landing with her blade exactly facing back so I know her rotations aren't 100% full/clean, but I thought the leeway was why so many skaters tend to get away with URs. Because if not, I don't understand how any skater can get away with no UR call because I regularly see skaters landing with their blade less than fully facing backwards and they don't get called. 

Just now, Neenah said:

Just a theory, but I think that Satoko and Kaori's big scores were given to make sure a Japanese lady (or two) make it to the final since it is in Japan and all

 

Shouldn't they have kind of considered just scoring the other Japanese ladies fair before then?

7 minutes ago, kaerb said:

Also @Joey since you're making similar points

 

Isn't UR (<) called if it's 1/4 turn (90 degrees) > 1/2 turn (180 degrees)? ie. where she lands at or slightly under 90 degrees is technically not UR (even though it's not ideal at all)? That's why I thought there was a grey area. I can clearly see she's not landing with her blade exactly facing back so I know her rotations aren't 100% full/clean, but I thought the leeway was why so many skaters tend to get away with URs. Because if not, I don't understand how any skater can get away with no UR call because I regularly see skaters landing with their blade less than fully facing backwards and they don't get called. 

yes an UR requires a jump to be 1/4 turn - 1/2 turn short (keep in mind it's Karen's 3toe (the second jump of her combo) that's UR)

almost nobody ever lands a jump 100% straight, Elizaveta does it sometimes, same goes for Hanyu, Boyang and Nathan. Sui does it on her 3throw-flip. Wakaba does it sometimes too, but rarely. 

 

the jump in the videos I linked were all definitely more than 1/4 turns short. For the beginning it's easier to put the youtube settings to 0.25 speed and then gradually fasten it to see how an UR jump starts to look if it's in 0.5 speed, 0.75 speed and normal speed

14 minutes ago, kaerb said:

Also @Joey since you're making similar points

 

Isn't UR (<) called if it's 1/4 turn (90 degrees) > 1/2 turn (180 degrees)? ie. where she lands at or slightly under 90 degrees is technically not UR (even though it's not ideal at all)? That's why I thought there was a grey area. I can clearly see she's not landing with her blade exactly facing back so I know her rotations aren't 100% full/clean, but I thought the leeway was why so many skaters tend to get away with URs. Because if not, I don't understand how any skater can get away with no UR call because I regularly see skaters landing with their blade less than fully facing backwards and they don't get called. 

 

The leeway for < is anything between 100% backwards (which would be 0° short) and 90°, yes. In that range, jumps shouldn't be called. But Satoko isn't slightly below 90° in most of her landings, they are shorter.

 

To be frank again, I can't understand why anyone thinks her 3F for example has any chance to be rotated at all. It is extremely small, I don't think I've ever seen a smaller jump in skating. Most ladies have bigger doubles. Where would she even have the air time to rotate that?

If you look at that one for example, she takes off nearly parallel to the ground (eh, I mean, the lower bar of youtube, so to speak). She's a bit more facing us then completely sideways. Were she completely sideways to us, she'd have to have her back towards us when she lands. But with her angle, it's fine if it's a bit more to her left side. However, when her blade touches the ice, we still see her right side. Then her back is facing us, then she 'completes' rotation on the ice until we her her left side/she's slightly facing us again. Hence, it's UR.

 

I'm trying to get pics, but the camera made a stupid wobble, so it's difficult to see D=

12 minutes ago, Eclair said:

yes an UR requires a jump to be 1/4 turn - 1/2 turn short (keep in mind it's Karen's 3toe (the second jump of her combo) that's UR)

almost nobody ever lands a jump 100% straight, Elizaveta does it sometimes, same goes for Hanyu, Boyang and Nathan. Sui does it on her 3throw-flip. Wakaba does it sometimes too, but rarely. 

 

the jump in the videos I linked were all definitely more than 1/4 turns short. For the beginning it's easier to put the youtube settings to 0.25 speed and then gradually fasten it to see how an UR jump starts to look if it's in 0.5 speed, 0.75 speed and normal speed

Mm yeah, it's tough to evaluate on video like I said because of depth perception - I'm literally going frame by frame and there are points where she's clearly UR but I can't tell if she's actually hit the ice or about to, and then in the next frame, she's on the 1/4 turn or less (since she rotates really fast) and also looks like she just hit the ice. Def on the border though so I think it ends up - alas - being a matter of what the judges see and what other factors are playing in the comp. It's almost like they have to get high TES (which sometimes/often? means overlooking errors) to get high PCS. While I don't dispute Satoko's TES seemed generous, I'm just glad they didn't rob her too badly on PCS like they usually do w/ the JP ladies =__=

10 minutes ago, kaerb said:

Mm yeah, it's tough to evaluate on video like I said because of depth perception - I'm literally going frame by frame and there are points where she's clearly UR but I can't tell if she's actually hit the ice or about to, and then in the next frame, she's on the 1/4 turn or less (since she rotates really fast) and also looks like she just hit the ice. Def on the border though so I think it ends up - alas - being a matter of what the judges see and what other factors are playing in the comp. It's almost like they have to get high TES (which sometimes/often? means overlooking errors) to get high PCS. While I don't dispute Satoko's TES seemed generous, I'm just glad they didn't rob her too badly on PCS like they usually do w/ the JP ladies =__=

yes, the depth perception can be tricky on screen, but it's actually pretty easy to spot when she starts touching the ice or when she takes-off once you get a little more practice with it 

 

53 minutes ago, Fay said:

Lol I got my wish - there wasn't a single fall during the FS

you're right!