Not going to get myself friends with that, but I have to say the arguments made for Satoko irritate me. Yes, she was the top Japanese lady some seasons back - so? Are we punishing the other girls then for just not being old enough? Doesn't matter if you're better now, you didn't "save" JLadies in 2015, no spot for you? Especially weird to me in that then Mai should get the 2nd spot anyway, because she saved the Japanese ladies last season. So if that arguments wants to be finished "fairly", Satoko & Mai are the Olympics team, end of story. Even harsher when we take into account that all of the other main contenders - Kaori, Waka and especially Marin - did a lot for Japanese ladies too, just bad luck it happened in juniors. Heck, Marin even achieved higher scores in juniors then Satoko when she got that silver medal at world's that's now supposed to be the deciding factor. With less technical elements to boot. So really, the only thing there is she's younger. Olympic team spots by age. 

 

And yes, everyone has technical issues, but it is not true that "everyone has something they are not called on". What was Mai being non-called on? And even if everyone has something, how can you hand wave it like that when the amount of "non calls" is so different. Kaori should have gotten an edge call on her Lutz. 1.6 off from the BV, and let's say 2.5 more in GOEs.  That's ~4 points. If I just go with the obvious URs from Satoko (the 3-3s, 3Lo/3F), that's 9.6 points in bv alone. Now add in that all those jumping passes would need to get negative GOEs, and that's up to nearly 15 points. More then 3x the number Kaori was gifted. That's comparable? 

 

Edit: and what I forgot - how are Satokos & Kaoris scores "the Japanese ladies finally getting what they deserve", as if it was some late justice for the other JLadies too? Both of their scores going up like this here screwed over the formerly underscored girls even more. They're not some humongous mass competing together, they're majorly competing against each other for those Oly spots. How many chances does Mai - who was arguably the strongest Japanese lady last season and only had 2 mistakes over the curse of her GP series, less then Satoko - now have at making it to the Olympics? She didn't medal at either her GPs (should have at both, IMO), has a lower SB then all of Satoko, Wakaba & Kaori (should not be lower then Satoko, arguably not Kaoris either), she's lower in the seasons ranking then Wakaba & Kaori, lower in World Rankings then Satoko, Rika & Wakaba... unless she wins nationals, her chance at an Olympic spot are pretty much non existent, while Satoko is a very clear favorite. Looking at their performances this season, that is fair?

On the one hand, I think it's nice to see skaters valued and not treated as disposable, in contrast to other countries. Satoko is a wonderful role model and artist. But I can't disagree with anything Joey said. Actually, Rika Hongo also contributed to Japanese success in the lean years, yet she's been cast aside without any remorse or sentimentality.

 

The JSF is always shooting themselves in the foot. Whatever games they play aren't simply about winning. (For example, why do they invest basically nothing into pairs and dance to win team medals? Bring in Cathy Reed and Yuko Kavaguti to start programs. China and Korea are putting in the work.) The intense internal rivalry between factions is almost counterproductive, as if different teams care more about beating each other than beating their foreign rivals. How far could Wakaba and Mai go if they were getting anywhere near the same push as Satoko? Their potential is greater than hers. Kaori is a TES skater, Satoko is a PCS skater, Wakaba and Mai are the more complete skaters. (Though I worry that Mai's SP choice was a misfire for this year.) Marin isn't ready. Instead of pushing up Higuchi and Mihara's PCS all year like Russia would have done, they saved up and cashed in all their chips at Skate America. I imagine Russia, Canada, and Italy are thrilled, because in the end Satoko's gorgeous programs won't be enough to push them off the podium.

Just went and took a look at the two Japanese ladies' performances. Wow. They both did good. Especially in the FS. Sakamoto's jumps are explosive. Like they're not just big, they're precise. And her rotations are fast. Whoa. She gives off the impression that she could possibly even jump quads. And her technique looks pretty darn solid, too. To my untrained eye, that is. Her FS is pretty nice, too.  She also executed her elements well. But overall performance-wise, I'm still gonna hand it to Miyahara, despite her miniscule flawed jumps*. She just has this flow and quality about her that makes her skating looks ethereal and real pleasant to watch. To a casual audience, her performance would look the nicest.

 

Score-wise, though, if judged precisely to what was put out there on the ice, Sakamoto would win by virtue of her TES, I think, but if we factor in the fact that there seems to be other factors involved in the judging (I think it's all part and parcel of the judging system, no matter how much we whine about it), Miyahara seems to be the most logical choice presently.

 

But if Sakamoto continues to improve her skating and keeps up her level of performance here, she could become one of the bigger names in the ladies' field in future seasons. The Japanese ladies field is shaping up to look really good, and with promising skaters making waves in the junior circuit, it'll sustain for a good long while.

 

*They keep saying it's due to her size but wasn't Midori Ito around the same height? Build-wise, though, Ito was much stockier while Miyahara is a lot more delicate. Although she has the tenacity of the best athletes, Miyahara  strikes me as more of a dancer than an athlete by nature.

 

36 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

*They keep saying it's due to her size but wasn't Midori Ito around the same height? Build-wise, though, Ito was much stockier while Miyahara is a lot more delicate. Although she has the tenacity of the best athletes, Miyahara  strikes me as more of a dancer than an athlete by nature.

 

 

It's not her height. Satoko isn't smaller then Mai or Wakaba either (or at least not by a lot) - and while Wakaba also has a different "build", I don't see the big difference to Mai.

(Also, if you want to see some really tiny things, look at Alexandra Trusova & Aljona Kostornaya in the Russian Junior field. Both smaller then Satoko - Aljona is 1.46! - and both really good jumpers with good height).

 

What probably made it difficult for Satoko is that she was forced to change the direction she rotates in. She started skating in the US and jumped clockwise, which is the rarer direction. Returning to Japan she was forced to jump counter-clockwise, like the majority of skaters, because the rinks are too crowded to let anyone go in the different direction. That can't have made it easy. It's hard to say how her jumps would be had that not happened though, and we'll never know.

9 分, Joeyさんが言いました:

 

It's not her height. Satoko isn't smaller then Mai or Wakaba either (or at least not by a lot) - and while Wakaba also has a different "build", I don't see the big difference to Mai.

(Also, if you want to see some really tiny things, look at Alexandra Trusova & Aljona Kostornaya in the Russian Junior field. Both smaller then Satoko - Aljona is 1.46! - and both really good jumpers with good height).

 

What probably made it difficult for Satoko is that she was forced to change the direction she rotates in. She started skating in the US and jumped clockwise, which is the rarer direction. Returning to Japan she was forced to jump counter-clockwise, like the majority of skaters, because the rinks are too crowded to let anyone go in the different direction. That can't have made it easy. It's hard to say how her jumps would be had that not happened though, and we'll never know.

Ah, that makes a lot sense. Definitely more sense than the size argument, which I've heard a fair number of commentators and other people chalk it up to. Wow. I never really paid attention to the direction American skaters jump. Does this mean Chen and all the other US skaters jump clockwise?

 

Miyahara can also spin both ways which I think is really awesome.

13 minutes ago, Joey said:

What probably made it difficult for Satoko is that she was forced to change the direction she rotates in. She started skating in the US and jumped clockwise, which is the rarer direction. Returning to Japan she was forced to jump counter-clockwise, like the majority of skaters, because the rinks are too crowded to let anyone go in the different direction. That can't have made it easy. It's hard to say how her jumps would be had that not happened though, and we'll never know.

 

One of the biggest what-might-have-beens in figure skating.

 

Most American skaters naturally jump counter-clockwise too, but if they don't, they aren't forced to change. It's interesting though, in dance, we have to learn to do every move on both sides. One will be slightly easier, but you work to get the other nearly as good. In skating it must be harder to keep your physique balanced and aligned because you're not using your body as evenly. I think it would be an interesting avenue to develop the sport if more points were awarded for jumping and spinning both ways. I guess never say never for quints, but it would be an alternative way to add difficulty.

I think outside of Japan - because of their crowded rinks - skaters are free to jump in whichever direction they prefer. Everyone just has a natural preference. It's really shame that these circumstances are being so difficult for Satoko.

 

As for the rotating/spinning in both directions idea, it sounds cool! I think some skaters talked about trying it just for fun before, Stephane Lambiel I think? IIRC he tried some triples that way and got them relatively fast.

This has been such an interesting discussion to follow, thank you everyone!  

16 hours ago, Joey said:

What probably made it difficult for Satoko is that she was forced to change the direction she rotates in. She started skating in the US and jumped clockwise, which is the rarer direction. Returning to Japan she was forced to jump counter-clockwise, like the majority of skaters, because the rinks are too crowded to let anyone go in the different direction. That can't have made it easy. It's hard to say how her jumps would be had that not happened though, and we'll never know.

I was wondering about this for a long time, but then again, almost all Hamada's student have small jumps. Marin and Satoko's technical are actually the same, especially their toe jumps. From what I remember, Rika Kihira learn jump from her previous coach. I think Mai have stronger leg than Satoko's, the one have similar "built" to Satoko is Elizabet Tursynbayeva, and she has way better jumps.

I like all Japanese ladies, Wakaba, Mai, Satoko, Marin, Yuna, Rika, even 3 spots is not enough for this field, let alone only 2. Whatever happen at Nationals, its gonna be heartbreaking. Back in 2013, there's alot of talk about Dai's Oly spot and I even saw some people said that Yuzuru should give his spot to Oda/Kozuka just because he's still young and his chance will be 2018 ??? The thing is, you'll never know what's happen in the next 4 year. Alot of thing can be change in one season, I never buy the argument "wait for your turn". Look at Kovtun, he may never have his Olympic experience. Or how Vincent push himself with all the quads, he clearly doesn't want to wait. 

29 minutes ago, Katt said:

I was wondering about this for a long time, but then again, almost all Hamada's student have small jumps. Marin and Satoko's technical are actually the same, especially their toe jumps. From what I remember, Rika Kihira learn jump from her previous coach. I think Mai have stronger leg than Satoko's, the one have similar "built" to Satoko is Elizabet Tursynbayeva, and she has way better jumps.

I like all Japanese ladies, Wakaba, Mai, Satoko, Marin, Yuna, Rika, even 3 spots is not enough for this field, let alone only 2. Whatever happen at Nationals, its gonna be heartbreaking. Back in 2013, there's alot of talk about Dai's Oly spot and I even saw some people said that Yuzuru should give his spot to Oda/Kozuka just because he's still young and his chance will be 2018 ??? The thing is, you'll never know what's happen in the next 4 year. Alot of thing can be change in one season, I never buy the argument "wait for your turn". Look at Kovtun, he may never have his Olympic experience. 

 

Haha, yes I remember that talk how Yuzu should give his spot to an older skater. Some people really can come up with weird ideas!

And yes, the "wait your turn mentality" is unfitting at best and downright offending at worst. I'd think this GP should have taught us all how unpredictable this sport is and how you shouldn't take anything for granted. Health among those. Mai had arthritis before and it ended her 2015-16 season early too, and this kind of sickness tends to have a possibility to return. She may not be able to skate in 2018. And for any possible reason, same applies to everyone else. There are also new Junior girls coming up in the next years too - just look at Rika Kihira. We can't say how she develops either, but there's a chance by 2022 the Japanese Olympic team will be Rika, Mako Yamashita & Nana Araki. Or should all of them be held back then too because then it's the turn of Mai, and Kaori, and Marin, and Yuna S., and... well, wait, not even enough spots for everyone to have their turn. And given it's a sport, not a soap opera, who's the best skater at that time should decide, nothing else.

(And I'm afraid in Kovtuns case it's not a 'may', the poor guy still has that damn injury and he looked nowhere near ready at SA. It's a bit over a month until nationals, one spot is pretty clearly Mikas, and then he'd need to pass Voronov, Samarin and to a lesser extent Aliev (who's also injured, but seems to still be in a better state then Kovtun). It makes me really sad for him he couldn't go in 2014)

50 minutes ago, Joey said:

 

Haha, yes I remember that talk how Yuzu should give his spot to an older skater. Some people really can come up with weird ideas!

And yes, the "wait your turn mentality" is unfitting at best and downright offending at worst. I'd think this GP should have taught us all how unpredictable this sport is and how you shouldn't take anything for granted. Health among those. Mai had arthritis before and it ended her 2015-16 season early too, and this kind of sickness tends to have a possibility to return. She may not be able to skate in 2018. And for any possible reason, same applies to everyone else. There are also new Junior girls coming up in the next years too - just look at Rika Kihira. We can't say how she develops either, but there's a chance by 2022 the Japanese Olympic team will be Rika, Mako Yamashita & Nana Araki. Or should all of them be held back then too because then it's the turn of Mai, and Kaori, and Marin, and Yuna S., and... well, wait, not even enough spots for everyone to have their turn. And given it's a sport, not a soap opera, who's the best skater at that time should decide, nothing else.

(And I'm afraid in Kovtuns case it's not a 'may', the poor guy still has that damn injury and he looked nowhere near ready at SA. It's a bit over a month until nationals, one spot is pretty clearly Mikas, and then he'd need to pass Voronov, Samarin and to a lesser extent Aliev (who's also injured, but seems to still be in a better state then Kovtun). It makes me really sad for him he couldn't go in 2014)

 I'd like to see everyone have a fair chance to fight for the spot. The Japanese and Russian ladies are full of great talents, 5 spots for them are still not enough. Its still too soon for me to think about 2022 since we saw alot of new names in JGP this season, Nana Araki, Moa Iwano, just to name a few, who knows what next season gonna bring to us ? 4 years is a long time, many thing can change, the field can be deeper or lighter. Oda or Machida could have easier battle for the 3rd spot than back in 2013, if they decide to comeback. Yes I watched Kovtun's SP at SA and feel bad for him as his chance to Pyeongchang is very very low. 

Maturity doesn´t necessarily relate to the age of a skater but to her/his basic SS and ability to perform and interpret the music and deliver the choreography. There are also older skaters whose skating can´t be called mature. Depends on the talent and when and how each skater makes progress in SS, interpretation etc.

 

Imo in that sense Satoko is clearly the best Japanese female skater. I would say the best lady in the world at the moment. How she delivers her both programs of this OG season is something very rare and precious.

 

Only the fact that the jumps - not spins, stsq and PCS - imo unfortunately play a huge role in scoring is the only reason why her spot in OG is questioned at the moment. But still jumps are not everything there is in FS. Because for me the artistry and mature skating are the most valuable things in FS, Satoko is my clear favorite for OG from Japan. The other one is Wakaba. I see artistry and maturity in her skating too. Both of them also have wonderful programs that are worth to show in OG. But Japan Nationals will surely decide and there are other strong candidates of course.

 

Yuzu was 19 in Sochi, as old as Satoko is now. Not old at all. I supported him already before Sochi, since 2010, so it is not a question of age.
 

sorry, boring wall text incoming

 

imo the point is that both tech and components should matter.

It's not like we can suddenly say that only pcs count, or only spins and steps but not the jumps, just like we can't say that only jumps matter and who cares for all the rest.

Everything should count, but if the tech panel starts playing favourites and forgetting UR(or edge)calls here and there, then technical elements (and in particular jumps) don't count as they should. And I've said this before, this is still a competitive sport, so it doesn't matter if one skater is much better in pcs, still the total package should be evalued, and that includes jumps, too.

Kaori's jumps are one of her strenghts, Satoko has strenght in pcs (and spins and steps), so everything should be evalued fairly. Then who gets the highest total score wins. But tech panel's calls and judges' scores (goe and pcs) have to be fair.

 

The thing I don't like in Satoko's scores here in SA were the scores she got on some of her jumps. I'm not deniying that she's a lovely, refined skater, and a hard-working one. I'm not denying that for her this was huge comeback after so many injuries. I'm not even denying that her programs and her skating are beautiful, because I think they are. But all these things don't change that the tech panel was pretty lenient with her jumps.

And tbh, even if some of Satoko's landings there might have deserved the benefit of the doubt for being close to the 1/4, knowing how much she prerotates (to the point that sometimes she almost does one full revolution on her toepick before she vaults in the air, which was what I found really, really annoying on the slow-mo), imo it would be only fair to deny that benefit. Just how much in a particular skater's favour has to be the score? To give the benefit of the doubt for that is against all those skaters who spent mental and physical energy to get those rotations in the air, with all the risks of keeping the axis, controlling the landing etc etc. So imo to award Satoko full BV on all jumping elements in both SP and FS was very, very questionable.

People can still think Satoko's performance was the best overall, and I'd might even agree (I didn't like the miming nor stiffness in upper body for Kaori, though she had other very good qualities and I've enjoyed her program a lot) but it doesn't cancel out the TES problem (on jumps).

Also, (if we were to trust NBC) apparently in the FS none of Satoko's landings was even called for review. Which is just... puzzling.