General Skating Chat

[Xen]

So uh guys, thoughts?

https://realnoevremya.com/articles/2991-video-replays-to-be-introduced-in-figure-skating

[kaeryth]

38 minutes ago, Xen said:

So uh guys, thoughts?

https://realnoevremya.com/articles/2991-video-replays-to-be-introduced-in-figure-skating

 

I'm all for it but... Hmmmmm...... Does Tom Z realise his students are at a disadvantage if this passes?

[Xen]

1 hour ago, kaeryth said:

 

I'm all for it but... Hmmmmm...... Does Tom Z realise his students are at a disadvantage if this passes?

Here's the problem I have- if the goal is for fair calls for everyone, it won't happen. Unless the person calling for the review has the authority to request a replay check of another skater. So in the end, we'd still get selective calling.

 

In the end, it becomes a case of whose fed is stronger than whom. So it might be possible that bigger fed skaters will get their review requests accepted, and have calls reversed. But smaller feds and medium feds either won't use the replay rights (due to not wanting to upset the applecart), or will not get calls reversed. And if a big fed doesn't get initial calls, it's unlikely that they'll suddenly start getting replay reviews and get new calls added. In the end, a larger fed could use this politically to berate TPs, which begs the question, does TP now also turn into a political game?

 

So while I support the idea of more cameras, more angles, more technology, I'm very cautious about how fair this process will be used.

[ralucutzagy]

VAR (video assistant referee) system in FS like in soccer and tennis! Why not! It's a good idea IMO! 

[axelnojutsu]

I just cannot get over the nerve of the freaking US demanding "justice" for their calls 

[Xen]

23 minutes ago, ralucutzagy said:

VAR (video assistant referee) system in FS like in soccer and tennis! Why not! It's a good idea IMO! 

I'm fine with more videos, my only beef with any such system is who is going to call it?

No one's going to call for URs the TP didn't spot, it's really going to be debates about calls that the TP did call but the skater/team/fed didn't think should have been called.

 

The results of which could go 2 ways:

1) more accountability-maybe because of heavy scrutiny, the TPs will actually start calling EVERYTHING to gain legitimacy, and we might see some interesting protests lobbed at TP, such as "skater XXX didn't get called, but why did my skater get called?" But usually those type of calls might come from smaller or med sized feds, or med-power teams in the larger feds. This might push TPs to be more "equal" across all teams since they don't know when that protest will be done. But at the same time, I find it a bit hard to see why smaller feds might send review requests in such a manner, since it seems to piss off larger powers that they rely on for training etc.

 

2) More political sway over TP- this is the second scenario which I am more fearful of. That the skaters and teams who send the most review requests are from larger feds. So it becomes a case of whether TP is willing to piss off a large fed. Which would then reduce the TP calls to be concentrated even more so among the med to smaller feds.

 

I don't know if Vince's team is stupid, but doing action 1 of the above is probably not in their best interests if they say another skater from the US should have received calls.

[ralucutzagy]

39 minutes ago, Xen said:

I'm fine with more videos, my only beef with any such system is who is going to call it?

No one's going to call for URs the TP didn't spot, it's really going to be debates about calls that the TP did call but the skater/team/fed didn't think should have been called.

 

The results of which could go 2 ways:

1) more accountability-maybe because of heavy scrutiny, the TPs will actually start calling EVERYTHING to gain legitimacy, and we might see some interesting protests lobbed at TP, such as "skater XXX didn't get called, but why did my skater get called?" But usually those type of calls might come from smaller or med sized feds, or med-power teams in the larger feds. This might push TPs to be more "equal" across all teams since they don't know when that protest will be done. But at the same time, I find it a bit hard to see why smaller feds might send review requests in such a manner, since it seems to piss off larger powers that they rely on for training etc.

 

2) More political sway over TP- this is the second scenario which I am more fearful of. That the skaters and teams who send the most review requests are from larger feds. So it becomes a case of whether TP is willing to piss off a large fed. Which would then reduce the TP calls to be concentrated even more so among the med to smaller feds.

 

I don't know if Vince's team is stupid, but doing action 1 of the above is probably not in their best interests if they say another skater from the US should have received calls.

Lol, I didn't thought that far. I just though is a way for a better judgment from TP. But, yeah, put it this way it could be a two edge sword indeed.

[Sombreuil]

 

Rather than giving coaches the right to demand a review of the video by judges, giving ‘human error’ another chance to mess it up and big feds an opportunity to apply undue pressure , I think the system that FIG are trialling is the way to go.  A computer can’t judge artistic merit, but it can measure the athletes movements, and it can tell whether a jump has mathematically been rotated or not.  This is a copy - couldn’t get it to link to the actual article.  Yes such equipment will be expensive, but it’s for big competitions - I can’t see FIG using it at every gymnastics competition, any more than goal line tech or the Hawkeye in tennis is used at small events, but for the big ones why not.?  Gymnastics is not a wealthy sport either.  

 

 

 

 

 

The International Gymnastics Federation and Fujitsu to Collaborate on Building a Judging Support System for Artistic Gymnastics Competitions

The International Gymnastics Federation,Fujitsu Limited

Lausanne, Switzerland, and Tokyo, Japan, October 07, 2017

(Japan issue date: October 8, 2017) - The International Gymnastics Federation (FIG), which regulates Gymnastics disciplines internationally, and Fujitsu Limited today announced that they have agreed to collaborate on implementing a judging support system for Artistic Gymnastics competitions. In collaboration, FIG and Fujitsu will carry out data capture and field trials in order to achieve fair and accurate, real-time judging support for Artistic Gymnastics that can be launched in 2020.

From 2016, Fujitsu Limited, Fujitsu Laboratories Ltd., and the Japan Gymnastics Association have been conducting joint research on judging support technology for Artistic Gymnastics competitions. Now, based on this technology, FIG, which oversees regional and national gymnastics organizations, establishes gymnastics rules, and hosts international competitions, and Fujitsu have agreed to work together to launch a judging support system in order to achieve consistently fair and accurate, real-time judging support.

Under the agreement, Fujitsu, for the first time at a World Championship, captured competition data at the 47th Artistic Gymnastics World Championships in Montreal, Canada, from October 2nd to 8th. The data will be used to further develop the judging support system.

Future Plans

With the aim of making the system available for practical use in 2020, the partners will acquire data of athletes competing in international competitions and continue development of the system, which will be put to test use at the 48th Artistic Gymnastics World Championships, taking place in Doha, Qatar.

Overview of Judging Support System for Artistic Gymnastics Competitions

In addition to the scores given by the judges at the competitions, this system will support them to come to a more accurate judgment by capturing the gymnasts' movements with a 3D laser sensor and analyzing them as numerical data.

 

 

[Neenah]

Am I the only one who thinks this whole thing is a PR campaign to counter Vincent's reputation of URs? I may be pessimistic but this doesn't feel like a genuine concern especially since Tom Z and those "Americans" (whoever that is) know all the problems that could come up and that Vincent's jumps deserved the calls they got. 

 

Regardless, putting a process in place for skaters to challenge wrong calls is a good idea but it must be designed very carefully to prevent abuse. I don't know how exactly that can happen but it is worth thinking about. Though from what we have seen from the ISU and holding judges accountable, I am not expecting much 

[Xen]

So someone was asking about layout talks....I've done 2, but I'm very suspicious of Kolyada's.

So far these are the 2 layouts. I've added in ChSq because it's a pretty stable BV.

Yuzuru Hanyu:

SP:  4S 3A 4T3T = 31.4

LP: 4Lo 4T 3Lo 4S3T// 4T1Lo3S 3A2T 3A ChSq= 76.11

BTW, for those wondering if Yuzu could move things around, if he moves the 3A to be second half, he would be at 32.2

 

Kolyada: Mikhail is an interesting case. He might be bringing the 4Lz, he might not (have yet to land it), and I suspect that the 3S2T should be a 4S2T and that the 3Lz1Lo2S that shows up in his protocols should have been a 3Lz1Lo3S. But anyways, here we go.

SP: 4T3T 3Lz//3A= 28.4  v2: 4T 3Lz3T//3A=28.4  v3: 4T3T 4Lz//3A=34

LP (v1-if he addes 4Lz): 4T3T 4Lz 3A 3S2T//4T 3Lo 3Lz1Lo2S ChSq= 65.56

LP (v2-the one he's been landing):  4T3T 3Lz 3A 3S2T// 4T 3Lo 3Lz1Lo2S ChSq= 59.96

LP (v3-maxed out version?): 4T3T 4Lz 3A 4S2T// 4T 3Lo 3Lz1Lo3S ChSq= 74.26

LP (v4-where he gets 4S but no 4Lz): 4T3T 3Lz 3A 4S2T//4T 3Lo 3Lz1Lo2S ChSq= 65.36

 

My guess is Mikhail will end up getting either V1 or V4 of the LP if he keeps at it. Has he landed a clean 4S before though? But he will need more than a quad toe to reduce the difference with Yuzu. And Yuzu is one of the less intense layouts. As for SP, Mikhail might as well stick to v1 or v2, same BV but more likely to get better GOE. Granted, he might go for the 4Lz, but considering stability and -GOEs on falls (even if he only gets -3 on falls), he'd lose over 4 GOE points even if everything else is clean. Plus the cap on PCs, so he loses too much IMO.

 

Shoma: think this is pretty much final

SP: 4F 4T3T//3A= 33.5

LP:  4S 4F 4T 4T2T//3A 3A1Lo3F 3S3T ChSq= 76.78

[yuzuangel]

9 hours ago, kaeryth said:

 

I'm all for it but... Hmmmmm...... Does Tom Z realise his students are at a disadvantage if this passes?

Yeah, really. Kinda gives you an idea of how self aware they are of their problems 

[yuzuonice]

hello, I translated Max & Angelo discussion on men SP from ElenaC's videos.

 

 

[Murieleirum]

6 hours ago, Neenah said:

Am I the only one who thinks this whole thing is a PR campaign to counter Vincent's reputation of URs?

 

Now that you've said it, it's obvous. Lol! 

 

6 hours ago, Sombreuil said:

 A computer can’t judge artistic merit, but it can measure the athletes movements, and it can tell whether a jump has mathematically been rotated or not.  

 

This is what Ambesi has always hoped for and I have to agree with it. Let the computer judge the completedness of the rotation - and let humans judge everything else that is not mathematical. 

[Murieleirum]

1 hour ago, yuzuonice said:

hello, I translated Max & Angelo discussion on men SP from ElenaC's videos.

 

 

 

Aaaah thank you so much for posting, I'll go listen to the video right away! I was all bitter because I don't have Eurosport this year... no competitions with Max commenting live...

[Guest turquoiseblue]