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7 hours ago, sallycinnamon said:

 

- about the possible changes after 2022: they'd want to make the SP and FS even more different than it is now: the 'technical program' and the 'artistic program' would have the same length; the technical program would have more jumps and spins and it would be instrumental while the artistic program would have more free elements and skaters could use also vocal music in it. The majority of the scores (2/3) in the technical program would be TES, in the artistic program the components would weigh more and there wouldn't be levels in it just BV+GOE.

 

 

 

*stares into the void* 

:tumblr_inline_ncmiffG34Z1rpglid:

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10 часов назад, sallycinnamon сказал:

I think the possible changes after 2022 are just ideas and there's still plenty of time to think them through, but I think there's a big contradiction when he says that a good program has a balance of technique and art, but in the new system one program would have more TES and the other would be more artistic. It would mean that the essence of this sport would be lost - to have balanced programs, in which both technique and art are (more or less) equally important. 

 

+ regardless of the judging system itself, correct judging and scores should always be top priority. But we know that this sport doesn't really work like this.:13877886:

I agree. At one point I get the idea: there're always arguments what is more important - TES or artistry and now every party will have there own programme and I think they should have separate medals + combined one. But it will be another sport then. And don't know about will it increase popularity or not cuz artistic programme will be closer to ID and I think it's less popular event in FS right now (I don't even want to peak about judging).

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On 8/6/2018 at 6:19 AM, shanshani said:

 

Thank you! For future reference, I pulled the bullets from the video:
 

Jumps:

Very good height and very good length (of all of the jumps in a combo or sequence)

Good takeoff and landing

Effortless throughout (including rhythm if it’s a combination jump)

Steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry

Very good body position from the takeoff to the landing

Element matches the music

 

Spins:

Good speed and/or acceleration during the spin

Good, controlled, clear position(s) (including height and air/landing position in flying spin)

Effortless throughout

Maintaining a centered spin

Creativity and originality

Element matches the music

 

Step sequences:

Deep edges, clean steps and turns

Element matches the music

Effortless throughout with good energy, flow and execution

Creativity and originality

Excellent commitment and control of the whole body

Good acceleration and deceleration

 

Choreographic sequences:

Creativity and originality

Element enhances the music

Effortless throughout with good energy, flow and execution

Good ice coverage (ie. skater uses the whole rink in their performance)

Good clarity and precision (ie. the steps and turns the skater uses are obvious)

Excellent commitment and control of the whole body

Underlined are the "core bullets" a skater is supposed to hit before judges are supposed to give them more than +3.

I'm no technical expert, but to me, all of these bullets for each thing (maybe ever so slightly more permissive, though not much...) should actually be the basic stuff to get 0. And from then on start piling up points to reward the truly outstanding skaters. Like... why should a choreo sequence that does not have good ice coverage or excellent commitment and control of the whole body get +3? Or a spin that doesn't have creativity and originality as well as that excellent commitment and control blah blah? Or a jump that doesn't have Very good body position from the takeoff to the landing? OK, let's say timing it to the music could be a bonus thing - though it really shouldn't be; want jumps to mean something? Make it mandatory to have them timed to the music - same for steps and creative entrance - though IMO, at least steps should also be mandatory. (And by mandatory I mean basic requirement for 0 GOE.)

 

That would definitely balance things out far more than increasing GOE scope, IMO and set a higher standard for skaters. They say skaters now have much higher technical difficulty right? So reflect that in the GOE bullets in a different way, by increasing the stuff they need to do to get 0 GOE. (Admittedly, I am severely spoiled by Yuzu, but if you really want to level field, why not level it up? Force the others to climb up to his level, not try to bring him down to every one else's level?)

 

Blah, I have no idea why I get so fired up on this alternative things when nobody will ever even consider them lol

 

But hearing that GOE is a mess already is no surprise... And if the messes continue, it will just give judges an excuse to throw candy - "It was just my opinion, look at other competitions, it's perfectly normal for GOE to vary wildly between judges!" - and that's just ugh. And it is even more frustrating when the powers that be at the ISU say the same the things we do on forums, but then go an do something completely different, roundabout and confusing...

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1 hour ago, KatjaThera said:

I'm no technical expert, but to me, all of these bullets for each thing (maybe ever so slightly more permissive, though not much...) should actually be the basic stuff to get 0. And from then on start piling up points to reward the truly outstanding skaters. Like... why should a choreo sequence that does not have good ice coverage or excellent commitment and control of the whole body get +3? Or a spin that doesn't have creativity and originality as well as that excellent commitment and control blah blah? Or a jump that doesn't have Very good body position from the takeoff to the landing? OK, let's say timing it to the music could be a bonus thing - though it really shouldn't be; want jumps to mean something? Make it mandatory to have them timed to the music - same for steps and creative entrance - though IMO, at least steps should also be mandatory. (And by mandatory I mean basic requirement for 0 GOE.)

 

That would definitely balance things out far more than increasing GOE scope, IMO and set a higher standard for skaters. They say skaters now have much higher technical difficulty right? So reflect that in the GOE bullets in a different way, by increasing the stuff they need to do to get 0 GOE. (Admittedly, I am severely spoiled by Yuzu, but if you really want to level field, why not level it up? Force the others to climb up to his level, not try to bring him down to every one else's level?)

 

But you need a starting point. If you need to do all these things to even get to 0, then where do you start? At -5? And how would you subtract even more from that if something is done really badly? Wouldn't you run the risk of ending up with a negative total score for an element? And increasing the standards for the top skaters is one thing, but how would this work with the lower levels? Would you really hammer some baby skaters with massive negative scores because they can't do everything picture-perfect already? I think the 0 is supposed to be the average execution. You did the element, you technically didn't make any mistakes, but you also didn't execute it very well = 0

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Well, where you start would depend on what exactly the mistakes considered are and also what can be added as extra. I don't think negative scores for elements would be a real issue, because I don't think overall negative scores are possible.

 

What my idea essentially is is to change what executing an element correctly means. So even rookie skaters would have to learn to them correctly - ie by these standards, or, like I said, a slightly more permissive version - from the beginning, to get the points. (Although admittedly, I did not take them into consideration).

 

I guess what I had in mind with this is that there are skaters who get plenty of points just from base value +n%, depending on what it is, so why bother do all the other difficult stuff for extra GOE? Especially when that adds the risk of falling. And the higher the base value, the higher the GOE, regardless of whether they add stuff to it. If however, the GOE standard itself was changed and the requirements for 0 were more severe, they'd have little choice but improve their technical skills.

 

For example, here in school, you need to get a mark of 5 out of maximum 10 to pass an exam. My idea for FS is as if in this system, instead of 5, you made the passing mark be a 7. You automatically raise the level like that. Many students only study enough to get the 5. But if the passing mark was 7, they'd have to study more and learn more, in order to get the passing mark of 7.

 

Although at the end of the day, none of this would be necessary if judging were done properly, so I guess it's back to the usual...

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29 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

For example, here in school, you need to get a mark of 5 out of maximum 10 to pass an exam. My idea for FS is as if in this system, instead of 5, you made the passing mark be a 7. You automatically raise the level like that. Many students only study enough to get the 5. But if the passing mark was 7, they'd have to study more and learn more, in order to get the passing mark of 7.

 

I agree with the general idea but I think it'd be more like raising it from a 2 out of 10 to the 5 out of 10 if we go by that example...

Aren't skaters supposed to get positive GOE simply for executing the element at all right now?

 

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45 minutes ago, axelnojutsu said:

I agree with the general idea but I think it'd be more like raising it from a 2 out of 10 to the 5 out of 10 if we go by that example...

Aren't skaters supposed to get positive GOE simply for executing the element at all right now?

 

Well, like I said it wouldn't have to be quite all the bullets (actually, a different amount of bullets, depending on level, would also make sense; Like 2 bullets for novice, 4 for juniors etc.; and IF they made it so judges check bullets instead of giving numbers, it'd even be really easy to implement). But just looking at those bullets as they are, I believe a top level senior skater should be able to do most if not all of those things.

 

My ideal would be that skaters get 0 for elements executed correctly (where correct, incorrect and extraordinary should be clearly defined, and they'd become the categories for bullet points) and positive for anything beyond that (the extraordinary), negative for incorrect execution.

 

But it's just a random idea, I didn't actually sit and think it through in detail :1:

 

Writing this, I think again, the best and easiest quick solution would be if judges checked bullet points instead of giving marks. I think it'd actually be a bit easier for them, too, and it's really not hard to implement. (And this goes for PCS, too, if there are bullet points there, too)

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45 minutes ago, axelnojutsu said:

I agree with the general idea but I think it'd be more like raising it from a 2 out of 10 to the 5 out of 10 if we go by that example...

Aren't skaters supposed to get positive GOE simply for executing the element at all right now?

 

If you look at the required bullets, the elements is supposed to get positive GOE if it was executed successfully and with good enough quality (not necessarily spectacular), which is the right way to give skaters incentive and motivation to execute their elements well. A lot of the time I see fans suggesting more punishment than reward, which would actually work better because people generally hate being punished way more than they like being rewarded (there is real research on this :biggrin:).  However, considering the young age of the majority of skaters and the sheer amount of effort required to succeed in the sport, I personally believe that positive incentives are better to keep the skaters (especially children) motivated, help them enjoy competing, and take some of the stress out of it. This is also why I think the +5/-5 GOE is better than the 3 GOE since it gives skaters that motivation to go for higher GOEs even if it doesn't mean much score wise.

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12 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

My ideal would be that skaters get 0 for elements executed correctly (where correct, incorrect and extraordinary should be clearly defined, and they'd become the categories for bullet points) and positive for anything beyond that (the extraordinary), negative for incorrect execution.

 

Isn't that what's basically supposed to happen anyway? That's why the bullets say "very good this or that". A jump with average height, average length, average landing, average whatever else (of course while being technically correct) is what get's you a 0. If you do those things above average, you get bonus points. If you make a mistake, you lose points.

And rules aren't always followed anyway, so upping the standards wouldn't do much good if the judges continue to ignore them. (that's why we lovingly call them "guidelines" because that implies that you're not actually breaking rules, you're just not following suggestions)

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7 時間前, rockstaryuzuさんが言いました:

Well, ice dance is to some extent a matter of taste, just like dance is, and not everyone likes Irish dancing. The thing about B/K is that, just like the Duchesnays before them, they were big innovators who bucked a lot of the prevailing wisdom ( which was for very 'classic', lyrical dances and/or strictly ballroom) of ice dance at the time, and who should have had that recognized with a medal or two. It's no coincidence that they won Worlds the year after the Salt Lake City judging corruption debacle caused ISU to rethink their scoring systems.

 

I dunno. When people say figure skating isn't a sport, I always think of ice dancing, because the other disciplines are plenty sport. Like, I'm aware ice dancing is athletic, but to me, it involves about as much athletics as ballet and ballroom dancing. It's basically ballroom dancing on ice to me. Like you need stamina, agility, flair and flexibility so it requires athletic prowess to a degree but it does not involve the kind of athletic prowess needed in actual sport type of figure skating. I may be wrong in this but I can't seem to shake the notion that skaters from the singles and pairs discipline would have a less hard time  switching to ice dancing than the other way around (and virtually impossible unless these dancers make the switch really young).

 

I'm not saying ice dancing is easy because dancing, as a general rule, ain't easy. And it can be harder to win due to the ambiguity in the judging. But it sure as hell isn't in the same sport category as the other disciplines. Like, maybe a subcategory, but I simply can't see it as a main category sport. So while I'm impressed by medals won in this category, if I have to be honest, it pales in comparison to the medals garnered by athletes in the other disciplines, since I can't tell the difference in prowess between all those on the ice dancing podium, if they all skated clean. It's like figure skating back in the 6.0 era to me, minus the jumps. 

 

7 時間前, rockstaryuzuさんが言いました:

But to bring this back on topic, it would be really fun to see what Yuzu would come up with if he tried to interpret another culture's dance forms in his programs. It's something most people are not used to seeing, either - an Asian man basically appropriating a bit of white culture.

 

Aren't Asians skating to warhorse essentially that? Or are you talking about more indigenous stuff like Russian or Celtic folk thingies?

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4 hours ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

I'm not saying ice dancing is easy because dancing, as a general rule, ain't easy. And it can be harder to win due to the ambiguity in the judging. But it sure as hell isn't in the same sport category as the other disciplines. Like, maybe a subcategory, but I simply can't see it as a main category sport. So while I'm impressed by medals won in this category, if I have to be honest, it pales in comparison to the medals garnered by athletes in the other disciplines, since I can't tell the difference in prowess between all those on the ice dancing podium, if they all skated clean. It's like figure skating back in the 6.0 era to me, minus the jumps. 

Becuz lots of fs fans can't tell steps and turns even in single skating, so they basically consider sport technique=jumps, artistry=the rest to show on ice. Ice dance without jumps -> without technique -> just some types of arts. This is wrong preconception thou. Steps, turns, lifts, hold, pattern (the last 3 for ice dance) are totally sports techniques that require athleticism (speed, power, resilience etc.) and have a clear guide for scoring just like jumps. It's true there is a larger part of "artistry" here w heavy focus on interpretation and performance. But still, if you don't clear those technical requirements you'll get -GOE just like when u fail a jump.

 

Imo only single skaters w top class skating skills can somehow switch to ice dance, steps and turns in ice dance are at a whole another lvl... Most top ice dance couples spend LIFETIME together to master techniques, ofc their lifetime must worth smt.

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5 hours ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

 

I dunno. When people say figure skating isn't a sport, I always think of ice dancing, because the other disciplines are plenty sport. Like, I'm aware ice dancing is athletic, but to me, it involves about as much athletics as ballet and ballroom dancing. It's basically ballroom dancing on ice to me. Like you need stamina, agility, flair and flexibility so it requires athletic prowess to a degree but it does not involve the kind of athletic prowess needed in actual sport type of figure skating. I may be wrong in this but I can't seem to shake the notion that skaters from the singles and pairs discipline would have a less hard time  switching to ice dancing than the other way around (and virtually impossible unless these dancers make the switch really young).

 

I'm not saying ice dancing is easy because dancing, as a general rule, ain't easy. And it can be harder to win due to the ambiguity in the judging. But it sure as hell isn't in the same sport category as the other disciplines. Like, maybe a subcategory, but I simply can't see it as a main category sport. So while I'm impressed by medals won in this category, if I have to be honest, it pales in comparison to the medals garnered by athletes in the other disciplines, since I can't tell the difference in prowess between all those on the ice dancing podium, if they all skated clean. It's like figure skating back in the 6.0 era to me, minus the jumps. 

 

 

Aren't Asians skating to warhorse essentially that? Or are you talking about more indigenous stuff like Russian or Celtic folk thingies?

I consider things like warhorses and classical music/ballet-ish programs to be universal because they usually translate well across many cultures. I am indeed talking about more ethnic-type dances and music. For example, flamenco and tango are sort of kind of warhorses, but they also have a strong flavour of the cultures they're from. I think it would be interesting to watch Yuzu dive deep into what's beyond that in terms of dance inspiration. Remember he still has to make singles' programs out of it.

 

So, things like Ukrainian dancing where the men leap and twirl from squatting positions, or Irish dancing, or even capoeira might work as inspirations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

I'm not saying ice dancing is easy because dancing, as a general rule, ain't easy. And it can be harder to win due to the ambiguity in the judging. But it sure as hell isn't in the same sport category as the other disciplines. Like, maybe a subcategory, but I simply can't see it as a main category sport.

 

That's kinda like saying that racewalking isn't a sport because it's not in the same category as hurdling.

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5 hours ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

Like, I'm aware ice dancing is athletic, but to me, it involves about as much athletics as ballet and ballroom dancing

Have you ever watched ballet live? Especially the men? You try doing some of these and then tell me how much athletics are in ballet. Don't forget that ballet dancers don't have the benefits of the speed and momentum that figure skaters can gather. A lot of these jumps are executed mainly from standing or running starts. The dancers are throwing themselves six feet in the air by muscle power alone, no physics to help them along.

 

Let's just say that if it involves moving your body artistically to music, it's athletic, and leave it at that. 

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