General Skating Chat

[axelnojutsu]

29 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

For example, here in school, you need to get a mark of 5 out of maximum 10 to pass an exam. My idea for FS is as if in this system, instead of 5, you made the passing mark be a 7. You automatically raise the level like that. Many students only study enough to get the 5. But if the passing mark was 7, they'd have to study more and learn more, in order to get the passing mark of 7.

 

I agree with the general idea but I think it'd be more like raising it from a 2 out of 10 to the 5 out of 10 if we go by that example...

Aren't skaters supposed to get positive GOE simply for executing the element at all right now?

 

[KatjaThera]

45 minutes ago, axelnojutsu said:

I agree with the general idea but I think it'd be more like raising it from a 2 out of 10 to the 5 out of 10 if we go by that example...

Aren't skaters supposed to get positive GOE simply for executing the element at all right now?

 

Well, like I said it wouldn't have to be quite all the bullets (actually, a different amount of bullets, depending on level, would also make sense; Like 2 bullets for novice, 4 for juniors etc.; and IF they made it so judges check bullets instead of giving numbers, it'd even be really easy to implement). But just looking at those bullets as they are, I believe a top level senior skater should be able to do most if not all of those things.

 

My ideal would be that skaters get 0 for elements executed correctly (where correct, incorrect and extraordinary should be clearly defined, and they'd become the categories for bullet points) and positive for anything beyond that (the extraordinary), negative for incorrect execution.

 

But it's just a random idea, I didn't actually sit and think it through in detail

 

Writing this, I think again, the best and easiest quick solution would be if judges checked bullet points instead of giving marks. I think it'd actually be a bit easier for them, too, and it's really not hard to implement. (And this goes for PCS, too, if there are bullet points there, too)

[Neenah]

45 minutes ago, axelnojutsu said:

I agree with the general idea but I think it'd be more like raising it from a 2 out of 10 to the 5 out of 10 if we go by that example...

Aren't skaters supposed to get positive GOE simply for executing the element at all right now?

 

If you look at the required bullets, the elements is supposed to get positive GOE if it was executed successfully and with good enough quality (not necessarily spectacular), which is the right way to give skaters incentive and motivation to execute their elements well. A lot of the time I see fans suggesting more punishment than reward, which would actually work better because people generally hate being punished way more than they like being rewarded (there is real research on this ).  However, considering the young age of the majority of skaters and the sheer amount of effort required to succeed in the sport, I personally believe that positive incentives are better to keep the skaters (especially children) motivated, help them enjoy competing, and take some of the stress out of it. This is also why I think the +5/-5 GOE is better than the 3 GOE since it gives skaters that motivation to go for higher GOEs even if it doesn't mean much score wise.

[Pamigena]

12 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

My ideal would be that skaters get 0 for elements executed correctly (where correct, incorrect and extraordinary should be clearly defined, and they'd become the categories for bullet points) and positive for anything beyond that (the extraordinary), negative for incorrect execution.

 

Isn't that what's basically supposed to happen anyway? That's why the bullets say "very good this or that". A jump with average height, average length, average landing, average whatever else (of course while being technically correct) is what get's you a 0. If you do those things above average, you get bonus points. If you make a mistake, you lose points.

And rules aren't always followed anyway, so upping the standards wouldn't do much good if the judges continue to ignore them. (that's why we lovingly call them "guidelines" because that implies that you're not actually breaking rules, you're just not following suggestions)

[Sombreuil]

 

 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

 

7 時間前, rockstaryuzuさんが言いました:

Well, ice dance is to some extent a matter of taste, just like dance is, and not everyone likes Irish dancing. The thing about B/K is that, just like the Duchesnays before them, they were big innovators who bucked a lot of the prevailing wisdom ( which was for very 'classic', lyrical dances and/or strictly ballroom) of ice dance at the time, and who should have had that recognized with a medal or two. It's no coincidence that they won Worlds the year after the Salt Lake City judging corruption debacle caused ISU to rethink their scoring systems.

 

I dunno. When people say figure skating isn't a sport, I always think of ice dancing, because the other disciplines are plenty sport. Like, I'm aware ice dancing is athletic, but to me, it involves about as much athletics as ballet and ballroom dancing. It's basically ballroom dancing on ice to me. Like you need stamina, agility, flair and flexibility so it requires athletic prowess to a degree but it does not involve the kind of athletic prowess needed in actual sport type of figure skating. I may be wrong in this but I can't seem to shake the notion that skaters from the singles and pairs discipline would have a less hard time  switching to ice dancing than the other way around (and virtually impossible unless these dancers make the switch really young).

 

I'm not saying ice dancing is easy because dancing, as a general rule, ain't easy. And it can be harder to win due to the ambiguity in the judging. But it sure as hell isn't in the same sport category as the other disciplines. Like, maybe a subcategory, but I simply can't see it as a main category sport. So while I'm impressed by medals won in this category, if I have to be honest, it pales in comparison to the medals garnered by athletes in the other disciplines, since I can't tell the difference in prowess between all those on the ice dancing podium, if they all skated clean. It's like figure skating back in the 6.0 era to me, minus the jumps. 

 

7 時間前, rockstaryuzuさんが言いました:

But to bring this back on topic, it would be really fun to see what Yuzu would come up with if he tried to interpret another culture's dance forms in his programs. It's something most people are not used to seeing, either - an Asian man basically appropriating a bit of white culture.

 

Aren't Asians skating to warhorse essentially that? Or are you talking about more indigenous stuff like Russian or Celtic folk thingies?

[monchan]

4 hours ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

I'm not saying ice dancing is easy because dancing, as a general rule, ain't easy. And it can be harder to win due to the ambiguity in the judging. But it sure as hell isn't in the same sport category as the other disciplines. Like, maybe a subcategory, but I simply can't see it as a main category sport. So while I'm impressed by medals won in this category, if I have to be honest, it pales in comparison to the medals garnered by athletes in the other disciplines, since I can't tell the difference in prowess between all those on the ice dancing podium, if they all skated clean. It's like figure skating back in the 6.0 era to me, minus the jumps. 

Becuz lots of fs fans can't tell steps and turns even in single skating, so they basically consider sport technique=jumps, artistry=the rest to show on ice. Ice dance without jumps -> without technique -> just some types of arts. This is wrong preconception thou. Steps, turns, lifts, hold, pattern (the last 3 for ice dance) are totally sports techniques that require athleticism (speed, power, resilience etc.) and have a clear guide for scoring just like jumps. It's true there is a larger part of "artistry" here w heavy focus on interpretation and performance. But still, if you don't clear those technical requirements you'll get -GOE just like when u fail a jump.

 

Imo only single skaters w top class skating skills can somehow switch to ice dance, steps and turns in ice dance are at a whole another lvl... Most top ice dance couples spend LIFETIME together to master techniques, ofc their lifetime must worth smt.

[rockstaryuzu]

5 hours ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

 

I dunno. When people say figure skating isn't a sport, I always think of ice dancing, because the other disciplines are plenty sport. Like, I'm aware ice dancing is athletic, but to me, it involves about as much athletics as ballet and ballroom dancing. It's basically ballroom dancing on ice to me. Like you need stamina, agility, flair and flexibility so it requires athletic prowess to a degree but it does not involve the kind of athletic prowess needed in actual sport type of figure skating. I may be wrong in this but I can't seem to shake the notion that skaters from the singles and pairs discipline would have a less hard time  switching to ice dancing than the other way around (and virtually impossible unless these dancers make the switch really young).

 

I'm not saying ice dancing is easy because dancing, as a general rule, ain't easy. And it can be harder to win due to the ambiguity in the judging. But it sure as hell isn't in the same sport category as the other disciplines. Like, maybe a subcategory, but I simply can't see it as a main category sport. So while I'm impressed by medals won in this category, if I have to be honest, it pales in comparison to the medals garnered by athletes in the other disciplines, since I can't tell the difference in prowess between all those on the ice dancing podium, if they all skated clean. It's like figure skating back in the 6.0 era to me, minus the jumps. 

 

 

Aren't Asians skating to warhorse essentially that? Or are you talking about more indigenous stuff like Russian or Celtic folk thingies?

I consider things like warhorses and classical music/ballet-ish programs to be universal because they usually translate well across many cultures. I am indeed talking about more ethnic-type dances and music. For example, flamenco and tango are sort of kind of warhorses, but they also have a strong flavour of the cultures they're from. I think it would be interesting to watch Yuzu dive deep into what's beyond that in terms of dance inspiration. Remember he still has to make singles' programs out of it.

 

So, things like Ukrainian dancing where the men leap and twirl from squatting positions, or Irish dancing, or even capoeira might work as inspirations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pamigena]

5 hours ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

I'm not saying ice dancing is easy because dancing, as a general rule, ain't easy. And it can be harder to win due to the ambiguity in the judging. But it sure as hell isn't in the same sport category as the other disciplines. Like, maybe a subcategory, but I simply can't see it as a main category sport.

 

That's kinda like saying that racewalking isn't a sport because it's not in the same category as hurdling.

[rockstaryuzu]

5 hours ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

Like, I'm aware ice dancing is athletic, but to me, it involves about as much athletics as ballet and ballroom dancing

Have you ever watched ballet live? Especially the men? You try doing some of these and then tell me how much athletics are in ballet. Don't forget that ballet dancers don't have the benefits of the speed and momentum that figure skaters can gather. A lot of these jumps are executed mainly from standing or running starts. The dancers are throwing themselves six feet in the air by muscle power alone, no physics to help them along.

 

Let's just say that if it involves moving your body artistically to music, it's athletic, and leave it at that. 

[salty]

6 hours ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

 

I dunno. When people say figure skating isn't a sport, I always think of ice dancing, because the other disciplines are plenty sport. Like, I'm aware ice dancing is athletic, but to me, it involves about as much athletics as ballet and ballroom dancing. It's basically ballroom dancing on ice to me. Like you need stamina, agility, flair and flexibility so it requires athletic prowess to a degree but it does not involve the kind of athletic prowess needed in actual sport type of figure skating. I may be wrong in this but I can't seem to shake the notion that skaters from the singles and pairs discipline would have a less hard time  switching to ice dancing than the other way around (and virtually impossible unless these dancers make the switch really young).

 

I'm not saying ice dancing is easy because dancing, as a general rule, ain't easy. And it can be harder to win due to the ambiguity in the judging. But it sure as hell isn't in the same sport category as the other disciplines. Like, maybe a subcategory, but I simply can't see it as a main category sport. So while I'm impressed by medals won in this category, if I have to be honest, it pales in comparison to the medals garnered by athletes in the other disciplines, since I can't tell the difference in prowess between all those on the ice dancing podium, if they all skated clean. It's like figure skating back in the 6.0 era to me, minus the jumps. 

 

 

if you watch more and more ID you'll get the hang of discerning between the top teams and the lower ones. For example i always thought the Shibs were really underscored when looking at their scores versus V/M and P/C but after watching those three for a while you can really see the difference between their skill. This is not to say that the Shibs aren't underscored when it comes to PCS because i think a lot of the times they were but PCS being finicky isn't a problem unique to ice dance

 

i do agree with you that ice dance has a 6.0 era judging problem but, well, all the other disciplines have that issue too.

 

Side note: Hubbel/Donohue are number 2 in the world because it's "their time" whatever that means, even though they are technically inferior to many teams (and artistically too, sorry i get so god damned bored by this team-ooh a program where they just act sexy and the story is empty omg how exciting and challenging ooh la la) 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

21 時間前, rockstaryuzuさんが言いました:

Have you ever watched ballet live? Especially the men? You try doing some of these and then tell me how much athletics are in ballet. Don't forget that ballet dancers don't have the benefits of the speed and momentum that figure skaters can gather. A lot of these jumps are executed mainly from standing or running starts. The dancers are throwing themselves six feet in the air by muscle power alone, no physics to help them along.

 

Let's just say that if it involves moving your body artistically to music, it's athletic, and leave it at that. 

 

Maybe I wasn't as clear in expressing my thoughts as I should've been and put you in the defensive over something you seem very passionate about but in saying that ice dancing is about as athletic as ballet and ballroom dancing, I'm not saying they aren't athletic. I'm actually saying they are. In fact I said very clearly later on in my post that they require athletic prowess, just not the same kind as the kind of athletic prowess you see in other disciplines of sports. I also mentioned that I realized dancing is hard. What you said struck me as you reading only the beginning of my post without processing what I said later on because you interpreted what I said early on in a way struck a nerve and that was all you focused on.

 

Anywho, I'm aware that dancing is both art and also technical to a fault, the way ice dancing is. What I don't get is if ice dancing is judged as a sport, why aren't ballet and ballroom dancing in the summer Olympics as well? It certainly isn't because they're less athletic than ice dancing. Or at least, they shouldn't be considered as such. But they aren't considered as sport despite the athleticism involved, which is what I don't get about the ice dancing discipline, which *is* considered as a sport, much.

 

22 時間前, Pamigenaさんが言いました:

 

That's kinda like saying that racewalking isn't a sport because it's not in the same category as hurdling.

 

No, it really isn't. It's more like saying racewalking is a sport but perhaps not the same kind of main category sport as hurdling. But I do consider it a main category sport with the rest though. Because it's basically like running, but in slow motion. There are other sports that are like it in its category. Ice dancing doesn't. So until other dances like ballet and ballroom dancing are considered as sport as well, ice dancing will remain a subcategory sport to me.

 

Look, I'm not looking to start a debate. I merely said what I did because I genuinely don't get it. And even after reading what you all said, while it all makes sense, it still does nothing to clear away the doubts I have. They're based on the way my head rationalizes things so I'm really not asking anybody to agree with me. If it works as a sport for you despite other dances not being considered as such, then okay. I may not get it, but I'll respect it as there's gotta be a good reason why you all follow it, right? Some of you have been doing it for aeons, too. I'm not about to try to change your minds.

 

20 時間前, saltyさんが言いました:

 

if you watch more and more ID you'll get the hang of discerning between the top teams and the lower ones. For example i always thought the Shibs were really underscored when looking at their scores versus V/M and P/C but after watching those three for a while you can really see the difference between their skill. This is not to say that the Shibs aren't underscored when it comes to PCS because i think a lot of the times they were but PCS being finicky isn't a problem unique to ice dance

 

i do agree with you that ice dance has a 6.0 era judging problem but, well, all the other disciplines have that issue too.

 

Side note: Hubbel/Donohue are number 2 in the world because it's "their time" whatever that means, even though they are technically inferior to many teams (and artistically too, sorry i get so god damned bored by this team-ooh a program where they just act sexy and the story is empty omg how exciting and challenging ooh la la) 

 

6.0 judging may also be prevalent in other disciplines, but not as much as ice dancing where the opportunity of ambiguity is much more ample. Sure, there's a huge difference between those at the very pinnacle and those who aren't quite there but in the top group, the things that set each team apart are subject to high amounts of ambiguity and subjectivity. Which is what I meant when said I can't tell the difference between them if they all skate clean. If I notice something about team A is better than team B, then likewise there's something else team B is better at than team A is and it's not always clear cut like jumps and their BVs and sometimes GOEs so it's down to who the judges simply prefer to pick based on other factors that have little to nothing to do with what the skaters themselves put on the ice that day. Again, although this applies to other disciplines as well up to a certain degree, the opportunity for this sort for judging in ice dancing strikes me as way more ample. And while it shouldn't be that way in other disciplines (at least under the tech scoring) so subjective judging is controlled in a way where it wouldn't be the only thing that decides who the winner should be, I actually don't see any other way to judge ice dancing because ice dancing in its essence requires subjective judging for the outcome.

 

There are ice dancing teams whose style I enjoy but unless other dances become recognized as sport as well, I doubt I'll ever get it as a sport much. 

[salty]

4 hours ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

whole post

 

sorry im just a bit confused about where you're coming from, could you give us an example? It just sounds like you're not sure how the technical side of Ice Dance is judged (which is fair since it's taken me like a year and half to even get a smidge of an idea if a team skated cleanly or not)

[hoodie axel]

5 hours ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

So until other dances like ballet and ballroom dancing are considered as sport as well, ice dancing will remain a subcategory sport to me.

Dancesport is a thing for ballroom. And there are grand prixs for ballet. But I get what you're saying. I think ID is the least sport-y discipline, and then add the fact that it's also somehow the least artistic at this point... I can't care less about it.

[Maleko]

Delet this... Wrong topic.