General Skating Chat

[Nuitsuki]

@¯\_(ツ)_/¯ unfortunately I don’t have a clear ranking for this one >_< too many factors come into play, it’s hard to analyze them all. 

Will be interesting to see how young guys would do when Yuzu retires. When the main media attractor is gone, they have quads and nerves to deal with. Would we see more splatfest in the future, or they would be able to develop their mentality and perform 3-4-5 quads cleanly under immense pressure? Time will tell

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

4 分, Nuitsukiさんが言いました:

@¯\_(ツ)_/¯ unfortunately I don’t have a clear ranking for this one >_< too many factors come into play, it’s hard to analyze them all. 

Will be interesting to see how young guys would do when Yuzu retires. When the main media attractor is gone, they have quads and nerves to deal with. Would we see more splatfest in the future, or they would be able to develop their mentality and perform 3-4-5 quads cleanly under immense pressure? Time will tell

 

You can't rank them if you factor in the future, seeing how it is unknown, but if you rank them based on all their showings thus far, and compare them to one another and others as well as how they each have fared against Hanyu, you can, if you want to. You may have a different result than mine, but the point is, you can.

[Danibellerika]

1 hour ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

@Nuitsuki

 

Adding to my answer, if I were to take Hanyu out of the equation altogether, here's how I would currently rank the skaters you mentioned in terms if mental fortitude:

 

Fernandez > Uno > Chan > Chen

I can count as many clean free skates from Fernandez as I can count from Chan this entire quad and that's 1 (after both botched their shorts). And I can probably count as many clean shorts on one hand too.  He just doesn't seem that solid to me.  

[Victoria]

13 minutes ago, Danibellerika said:

I can count as many clean free skates from Fernandez as I can count from Chan this entire quad and that's 1 (after both botched their shorts). And I can probably count as many clean shorts on one hand too.  He just doesn't seem that solid to me.  

 

I'm curious, what's the success rate of skaters performing after a clean hanyu? I remember Javi said at one point that a clean hanyu is unbeatable, do you think that works on his (javi's) favor? thinking that no matter what he does he is not going to win?

[Danibellerika]

46 minutes ago, Victoria said:

 

I'm curious, what's the success rate of skaters performing after a clean hanyu? I remember Javi said at one point that a clean hanyu is unbeatable, do you think that works on his (javi's) favor? thinking that no matter what he does he is not going to win?

 

Javi tends to be okay getting whatever he can get, so he kind of plays in his own sandbox. Brian has said it's mentally healthier going Javi's route where he'd be happy for a silver vs. a Yuzu who would be devastated (as would we all).The stakes always feel like so much more when only one result will do. 

 

Also, to put my money where my mouth is, Javi was clean (as in all positive GOE) with intended content exactly 5 times this quad.  And then a couple other times he only did a 2a or 2t in the same seasons he does 3a and 3t so to me that's kinda eeeh.   

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

1 時間前, Danibellerikaさんが言いました:

I can count as many clean free skates from Fernandez as I can count from Chan this entire quad and that's 1 (after both botched their shorts). And I can probably count as many clean shorts on one hand too.  He just doesn't seem that solid to me.  

 

My (admittedly rough) calculation is based on the entire last quad and based on results and scores alone, I would say Fernandez has got a better handle on his competitive mindset than Chan. Chan never quite regained his momentum after first being dethroned by Hanyu way back in back in 2013 and lost even the chance to gain it back after taking his 1-year break post-Sochi. It's like he got a wake-up call as to what true competition is really like (since he was pretty much without any, as decreed by the ISU, until Hanyu came along) and couldn't quite muster up the fighting spirit to scrabble his way back to the top. He managed to stay relevant as a top contender but not by much. Fernandez, by comparison, stayed pretty much within striking distance of the gold all throughout.

[Danibellerika]

4 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

My (admittedly rough) calculation is based on the entire last quad and based on results and scores alone, I would say Fernandez has got a better handle on his competitive mindset than Chan. Chan never quite regained his momentum after first being dethroned by Hanyu way back in back in 2013 and lost even the chance to gain it back after taking his 1-year break post-Sochi. It's like he got a wake-up call what true competition is really like (since he was pretty much without any, as decreed by the ISU, until Hanyu came along) and couldn't quite muster up the fighting spirit to scrabble his way back to top. He managed to stay relevant as a top contender but not by much. Fernandez, by comparison, stayed pretty much within striking distance of the gold all throughout.

I see. I was thinking mental fortitude in terms of actually skating clean.  Because if we're going by results and scores then on paper Nate looks a lot better than how he's ranked.   

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

8 分, Danibellerikaさんが言いました:

I see. I was thinking mental fortitude in terms of actually skating clean.  Because if we're going by results and scores then on paper Nate looks a lot better than how he's ranked.   

 

For Chan and Fernandez, I'm saying that simply by scores and results alone, Fernandez wins. But when I factor these scores and results against the backdrop of the competition, which means the strength of other competing skaters, it looks even better. And when I include this second factor, Chen, who was pretty high up if we looked at results and scores alone, falls behind rather significantly. I'm not really putting in just clean performances, but also clean-enough-to-win-against-tough-competition ones, because mental  toughness, in my books at least, should encompass at least that much.

[Katt]

Javi is a better competitor than Chan in the last quad, but overall, they're about the same IMO. Javi never skate 2 clean programs in one comp in his career, while Chan did it twice i think (TEB2013, WC2011). If you look at the score, Chan had lower BV than Javi in the last quad, and his pcs was underscored in the last 2 season so it make sense that his score is lower than Javi. When they have similar BV (around Sochi), Chan often score higher. For me I tend to look at the amount of mistake they make at comp than the score/result. WC16 and OG18 are actually 2 comp that Javi made the least mistake (1 fall and 1 pop)

[Old Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, Katt said:

Javi is a better competitor than Chan in the last quad, but overall, they're about the same IMO. Javi never skate 2 clean programs in one comp in his career, while Chan did it twice i think (TEB2013, WC2011).

 

No, Chan made a mistake on the triple axel at 2011 worlds. 

 

We also have to define what exactly a "clean" skate is.  For purposes of objectivity, I simply define it as not having any negative GOE.  If you want to define it as not making any mistakes or skating what was intended, then technically Hanyu's 2018 short program wasn't "clean" since he made the mistake on the spin that cost him a level.

 

fwiw, even the most hysterical of the ChanClan could only point to 3 clean free skates on Goldenskate, 1 at 2012 Canadian nationals (though with messy landings), 1 at 2013 TEB, and 1 at 2016 Four Continents.  though if you count national titles, that's still 2 clean competitions as far as I know.   

 

By the loosest definition of "clean", Javier skated clean at 2018 Olympics - there was technically nothing wrong with the double salchow and if we're considering Chan's hooked/scratchy landings as clean or Yuzu's lost level on the spin as clean then Javier's performance was clean as well.   Not that familiar with Fernandez's history so don't know how he did on his nationals but since nationals are essentially glorified exhibitions for both Chan and Fernandez I don't think it's all that germane.

 

Though, I think of mental toughness more to do with "skating to your potential" when it matters most rather than being squeaky clean.  By that, I mean that even though Nathan made mistakes in his Olympic and World free skates, since they were about as well as he's been able to skate, he still skated to his potential.  Or even though Shoma fell at the Olympics and 2017 worlds, he still displayed mental toughness because he skated about as well as you ever see him skate in the 2 biggest events.  Same with Chan at 2011 worlds.    

 

It's hard to judge Nathan's mental toughness.  He has yet to skate well in international competition when he was under real pressure but he also hasn't been put in the situation that often.  

 

[Katt]

7 hours ago, Old Cat Lady said:

 

No, Chan made a mistake on the triple axel at 2011 worlds. 

 

We also have to define what exactly a "clean" skate is.  For purposes of objectivity, I simply define it as not having any negative GOE.  If you want to define it as not making any mistakes or skating what was intended, then technically Hanyu's 2018 short program wasn't "clean" since he made the mistake on the spin that cost him a level.

 

fwiw, even the most hysterical of the ChanClan could only point to 3 clean free skates on Goldenskate, 1 at 2012 Canadian nationals (though with messy landings), 1 at 2013 TEB, and 1 at 2016 Four Continents.  though if you count national titles, that's still 2 clean competitions as far as I know.   

 

By the loosest definition of "clean", Javier skated clean at 2018 Olympics - there was technically nothing wrong with the double salchow and if we're considering Chan's hooked/scratchy landings as clean or Yuzu's lost level on the spin as clean then Javier's performance was clean as well.   Not that familiar with Fernandez's history so don't know how he did on his nationals but since nationals are essentially glorified exhibitions for both Chan and Fernandez I don't think it's all that germane.

 

Though, I think of mental toughness more to do with "skating to your potential" when it matters most rather than being squeaky clean.  By that, I mean that even though Nathan made mistakes in his Olympic and World free skates, since they were about as well as he's been able to skate, he still skated to his potential.  Or even though Shoma fell at the Olympics and 2017 worlds, he still displayed mental toughness because he skated about as well as you ever see him skate in the 2 biggest events.  Same with Chan at 2011 worlds.    

 

It's hard to judge Nathan's mental toughness.  He has yet to skate well in international competition when he was under real pressure but he also hasn't been put in the situation that often.  

 

My bad. I just rewatch Chan's 2011 WC peformance. So he skated 2 clean program in 1 comp only once. His FS at SC15 and GPF15 could count as clean too because no one know if he plan 2 quad or 1 quad. 

For me, clean skate is no negative GOE and all plan jumps are succeed. If you didn't count Yuzu's OG SP as clean because spin level, both of his peformance at GPF15 are the same (stsq3). If Javi's OG FS is clean because of no negative GOE, Yuzuru's WTT15 FS, 4CC17 SP should count too. I think the lost level in stsq/spin is much smaller mistake than pop jump, whether in term of BV or performance. 

I think all top 6 men are all good competitor, as they deliver alot of time. With the youngster like Nathan, Shoma, Boyang, I need to see them more, especially Nathan since he only compete in senior 2 seasons so far.  

[meoima]

Most men mess up when huge pressure is on them. Plushenko did pretty much walk through 2006 not because he was so much more amazing than the rest but mostly because his rivals were all headcases of those days. Sorry Lambiel and Jeff but that’s true. Also, after 2002 or frankly after Yagudin retired, Plushenko almost had no rival so he practically level down his base value and still won most of the time.

Even though Plushenko was solid throughout his career, the fact was that be stayed with same watered down layout for years. That’s the biggest factor of his “consistency”. But still that’s better than his rivals anyway.

It is normal for most men to do well then they face less pressure than normal. Also it’s also normal for most men to do well when their rivals mess up. It’s also normal for the men to mess even when their rivals mess.

In short, men skating has always been like this. 

 

Yuzuru will do well as he skate last when the other do well before him. But he didn’t enjoy skating before his rivals in the free. However he has learned to adapt to that at the Olympics. He has learned to cope up with the skating order. Or at least that’s what I hope.

[KatjaThera]

I think it's really hard to quantify mental strength and it's not as simple as clean vs not clean, no negative GOE vs negative GOE. Mistakes can happen for reasons unrelated to mental strength and for some skaters, negative GOE isn't that big a deal (combined with judges being random at times), as they don't really count on GOE as much.

 

I also think consistency is greatly overrated. I guess it'd be nice not to feel like having a heart attack while watching Yuzu skate, but that's part of what makes him awesome. Also, with the level of difficulty his programs have, it's only natural he won't be perfect all the time. Like @meoima said about Plushenko, it's not that hard to be consistent when you stick to a lower level of difficulty. I'm sure Yuzu could do clean PW or Chopin 1 and Seimei 1 for the rest of his career and possibly wipe the floor with everyone else. But he'd get bored very quickly. I also don't think not managing to do it cleanly from the beginning has much to do with mental strength and more to do with fine-tuning. So I don't think it's fair to judge programs in the early stages. Rather from GPF on, it's when programs should be polished and ready and clean.

 

I think the biggest issue skaters can encounter is 'thinking too much'. My opinion:

 

Javi competes well - in Brian's words - because he doesn't think much while skating, I think. He just goes out there and does what he can, without having too many expectations. In a way, it's confidence - if he's clean, he'll be somewhere near the top - and knowing himself, I guess. He wants to win, but also has a pretty good idea of his realistic chances and knows there's no reason to stress about it too much. It's a great attitude to have, but I think it's somewhat atypical for an athlete.

 

Shoma, I think has also reached a point where he can more or less turn off his brain. His experience in Boston probably helped a lot. (I still maintain I've never seen an athlete look as terrified before a competition as Shoma looked in Boston before he started his program.) Competing against Yuzu helps, I think, for both Javi and Shoma. They both know they can't beat a perfect Yuzu and nobody realistically expects them, too, so that's a lot of pressure off. When Yuzu isn't there, Shoma has a harder time. Because in Japan, everyone things he's second only to a perfect Yuzu. So there's pressure to be at the level Yuzu would be at.

 

Javi on the other hand, if Yuzu's not around, he knows he has a good chance to win and that in turn gives him confidence more than pressure, I think. Spain never expected him to win championships, so whatever he achieves will be awesome anyway, and if he doesn't win, it's because it's hard for him to battle quadsters, if they go clean (same as with Yuzu, realistic expectations).

 

Nathan gets a lot of pressure. Many times it seems like he doesn't really feel it. I guess he feeds on the 'Yuzu is inconsistent' thing, so he 'knows' he only needs to do his best and he's likely to win, because Yuzu will make mistakes and his mistakes will be costlier. (I guess this might be part of what Yuzu called Raf being calculating.) Since Yuzu counts on GOE to win, he needs to be perfect and that rarely happens. So Nathan only needs to sort of land his jumps to have a big chance to win. Of course, that's not easy, but I think it's pretty straightforward. I think Nathan gave in to pressure after Yuzu skated perfectly in the SP. Because if Yuzu is perfect, then Nathan has to be even more perfect. And since people expect him to beat Yuzu, that's a lot of pressure. Especially when the score is one Nathan has never achieved. (Depending how fast his mind works, he might have analyzed the level of GOE he'd need to reach that score, aside from landing his jumps and that stressed him even more.) When the pressure is off and he can just get mad and go for it, the FS happens.

 

Boyang in a way is in the best position as the underdog everyone underestimates. He doesn't have much pressure and can take his time to develop his skills and improve at his own pace, while also generally being in a good place to take advantage of others not doing well. I'm not sure what happened at Worlds, but it could be that because people were putting him in the same category as Shoma and Nathan, the pressure finally got to him. (Not sure if his injury acted up as well or not, I didn't really read anything about it.)

 

As for Yuzu, I think it's really hard to turn off his brain, especially since he only needs to turn off parts of it. The rest comes in really handy (for YOLO-ing without zayak-ing - actually, he did say that he once lost because of zayak so now he's really careful with it). He said, I think after Worlds last year and maybe ACI as well, that he's learned how to focus so as not to overthink. I wonder if that's true and I'd like to see if it is. (I can also imagine it is true, but he's also been experimenting with other stuff, or didn't want to use the 'secret weapon' in other events, like Rostelecom last year.) Because if he really has, the rest are pretty doomed . IMO, his tendency to overthink and his own ambition are the only things preventing him from truly dominating. But personally, I prefer it like this. That in his entire senior career he was only lower than 2nd place a handful of times has less to do with consistency and more to do with just how good he is. IMO, that's more impressive than consistency.

[hoodie axel]

15 hours ago, KatjaThera said:

I'm not sure what happened at Worlds, but it could be that because people were putting him in the same category as Shoma and Nathan, the pressure finally got to him.

I doubt it. 

[Lilona]

I think I saw special topic for that but can't find now.

Netherland's cometee sent urgent request to change age from 15 to 17 for season 2020-2021 for June ISU meeting

https://mobile.twitter.com/JeroenPrinsNL/status/996122256668577792