General Skating Chat

[Fay]

I think we shouldn’t discuss GS debates over here? What happens on other forums is their affair, not ours. 

[Xen]

2 minutes ago, Starfishsea said:

No I have never received a PM from anyone. I am sending you my GS ID through PM right now. 

 

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I only watched people fight over there because it looked like a cat fight after the whole Eteri coach change drama. And I said like 2 comments. 3 maybe. I can't remember

 

How about we drop this because it's starting to get creepy. =) And I'm starting to get very suspicious since I've always wondered who is the Lurker Zu among us.

[skateIT]

So Medvedeva is officially leaving Eteri! 

[robin]

8 minutes ago, skateIT said:

So Medvedeva is officially leaving Eteri! 

 

It's already discussed in this thread:

 

[Coquelicot]

On 5/4/2018 at 9:44 AM, Xen said:

Let's drop the issue, I'd rather discuss skating schools in the Gen Skating Chat. =)

 

So, to start this all off, here's a nice tumblr post that actually does a good summary of the skating schools in Japan: Skating Schools in Japan

Now, can anyone do anything similar with the NA schools or the Russian schools?

 

That was an interesting read!  Thanks for sharing!  

 

I read this today and thought it might be interesting to add to the conversation: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/05/04/275097820.  I don't think we have anything like this in the US right now.  It sounds like a pretty cool idea!

 

Quote

Icenetwork: Rafael Arutunian told me he hopes to create a new training center at the four-ice-sheet complex scheduled to open in July 2018 in Irvine, California, where he would be head of a pyramid of coaches working together to develop skaters at all levels. (He envisions 20-30 coaches and dozens of skaters, with perhaps 20 of them at the novice level, 15 juniors and three or four elite seniors.) In turn, the more experienced coaches would develop the younger coaches, and some of them would go on to start their own centers.

 

[ICeleste]

I was watching some Javi interviews and I thought I’d share the translation of these interesting bits where he talks about Yuzu, PCs and reputation judging.

January 2018 http://www.cope.es/videos/partidazo-cope/javier-fernandez-partidazo-cope-firmo-plata-aunque-voy-por-oro-los-juegos_446121

 

(Discussing Sochi) Interviewers: I hope he won’t hear this, but the Japanese skater fell many times and here we were celebrating each of his falls as if they were goals scored by the Spanish football team.

(T/N:  )

Javier: (laughs) Well, we risk a lot in our programs and even if we make mistakes, in the end, Yuzuru and I, we are very complete skaters so we don’t only depend on the jumps. Thus if we make mistakes on the jumps, we have something that shelters us. Some other skaters don’t have that so if they fail on the jumps it’s over. But skaters as complete as Yuzuru and I have that “wildcard”, so to speak, if we make mistakes.

 

(Discussing Europeans)

Interviewer: Are you worried about competing against the Russian guys, in Moscow?

Javi: No, I’m not. After all, the judges know me so well and I’m not new anymore. So, maybe (I'd be worried) if I competed in Japan against a Japanese skater which is the most direct to me… But, even if the Russian guys do well at Europeans, if I do well too, the result shouldn’t be different.

 

Another interview on February 17th at Pyeongchang (about Yuzuru’s LP)

http://www.cope.es/audios/tiempo-juego/javier-fernandez-aunque-haya-sido-oro-una-medalla-olimpica-que-era-nuestro-sueno_464395

Javier: The truth is I haven’t seen him compete. I’ve seen his score and I believe his LP must have had some mistakes because he could’ve earned some more points- but I don’t know because I didn’t watch him. Still, it’s clear that he was the best at this competition.

[kaeryth]

IS BRIAN COMING TO AUSTRALIA?????

 

[OonsieHui]

59 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

IS BRIAN COMING TO AUSTRALIA?????

 

 

I hope he doesn't get drowned in Yuzuru and Zhenya questions..... but dang that's cool!!

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

Not sure where to put this because it's a general topic that also mentions other skaters besides Hanyu but I figured this place would be a safe bet.

 

5 時間前, Nuitsukiさんが言いました:

The pressure of leader/ defender is much much more intense and nerve-wracking than chaser/ challenger. Maybe it’s not Nathan who is mentally weak, but it’s the pressure is too much to handle. 

 

Strength is only when a weakness has been overcome. Bravery is only when fear has been defeated. If you come from a place with neither weakness nor fear, then you are neither strong nor weak, brave nor cowardly, as you would have proven neither.

 

As far as I'm concerned, not being able to handle pressure is a mental weakness. If the pressure is too much, it means you're not strong enough to bear it. Because saying Chen's penchant for caving in (so far) when the pressure is too much for him handle isn't due to mental weakness, is akin to saying that what Hanyu did, especially in GPF15 and PC, wasn't a show of incredible mental fortitude.

 

So, to me, Chen's inability to bear the pressure heaped upon him is a mental weakness, but it's one that I fully expect someone with his lack of experience and the position he was thrust into to have. Which means, at this point, I'm willing to chalk it up to inexperience and the fact that the pressure got piled on him too much, too fast and too soon, when he still didnt have the benefit of possessing the kind of confidence past experience would have given him to help him bear it. But it is still mental weakness.

 

Uno seems very aware of this when, in a post-Oly interview featuring both himself and Hanyu, when both Hanyu and the interviewer were gushing (Hanyu more than the interviewer) about his mental strength, he was quick to correct them, saying that if he had the kind of pressure piled onto his shoulders that Hanyu had borne for years, then he wasn't so confident he'd be able to bear it as gracefully as Hanyu did, while still producing the kind of jaw-dropping results he did. And I find myself agreeing with him*. Kid may seem half asleep most of the time, but one would be remiss to think he doesn't truly see what's going on.

 

*Hanyu didn't seem convinced and was like, "Nooo it's sssssstrengthzzz!" And I had to roll my eyes at him then cos his envy was showing clear as day, so much so you could literally hear the unspoken, "If you don't want it, then give it to me!".

[Sombreuil]

I found it irritating reading the US media in the 6 months or so leading up to the Olympics - I expressed the hope last summer that their hubris wouldn't pull Chen down, but sure enough it did.  I also find it annoying when I come across NC uber comments that he was in a worse position at PC than YH was in Sochi because Yuzuru had been in seniors longer and he wouldn't have won if it hadn't been a splatfest and PC hadn't crumbled.

 

Yuzuru spent spent those extra years gradually building up the PCS etc that were gifted to the quadsters in their first seasons.  That gradual acquisition of credit for your abilities also tempers your nerves - if you have experienced difficult skates, lost a lot of marks and risen above them it helps you keep your nerve when crisis hits again.  If the points are thrown at you, you don't experience that unless you have a total meltdown that the judges can't ignore.  I think Shoma not getting to the podium in his first WC helped him with that.

 

 NC crumbled quite spectacularly at PC in the short where Yuzuru at Sochi was magnificent - that goes for team and individual.  The old saying that you don't win with the SP but you can lose with it holds good.   I find the title of his SP darkly amusing.   Yes Sochi FP was a splatfest, but frankly none of it was as bad as N's SPs at PC.  He landed his jumps in the FP - good for him, but he had no pressure by that point.  Patrick might have stumbled a bit but he still ended up with silver.  Yuzuru didn't win in the way he would have wanted to but as BO says, a win is a win.  He did it at PC in extraordinary circumstances and with great style.

 

(I have got to resume ignoring US media and all those other forums)

[Nuitsuki]

@¯\_(ツ)_/¯ hm, i agree with you about not being able to handle pressure is a mental weakness. But it also depends on 1) what kind and amount of pressure 2) how weak is the mentality. 

Sure, Nathan doesn’t have nerve of steel, his mentality has a lot to desire. I don’t think he is at Yuzu-level, but is he weaker than Shoma or Javier? Probably yes, probably no. For sure he is stronger than Mikhail, who is also a technical strong skater.

1) the pressure Nathan faces is far much stronger than Shoma imo. While Shoma was also aiming for gold, the media did clearly show that PC would be a showdown between Yuzu and Nathan. Japan had 2 medal contenders, and most of expectation was on Yuzu, while Nathan had to suffer whole contry expectation alone.

I don’t look down Shoma, but he wasn’t doing well when being put at the spotlight (GPF 2017 was really bad tbh. A couple of his quads were UR, but obviously tech panel didn’t care. 4cc was better, but it wasn’t the best of him too). It is very apparent that he enjoys staying behind Yuzu, or as someone said on this forum before, Yuzu is like a ‘shield’ to absorb part of media and pressure. Nathan doesn’t have that shield. 

2) if Nathan is weak, then what could we say about Javi or Patrick? I don’t think Nathan’s mentality is much weaker than them. Don’t forget Javi was aiming for podium, while Nathan wanted gold. That could also create difference. And he doesn’t have much experience too. 

In short, i neither categorize Nathan’s mentality as weak nor strong. He does well under certain circumstances, and does bad under other conditions. Just like anyone. The current men skater that has strong mentality is, imo, only Yuzu.

 

[Victoria]

On 5/5/2018 at 9:59 PM, ICeleste said:

I was watching some Javi interviews and I thought I’d share the translation of these interesting bits where he talks about Yuzu, PCs and reputation judging.

January 2018 http://www.cope.es/videos/partidazo-cope/javier-fernandez-partidazo-cope-firmo-plata-aunque-voy-por-oro-los-juegos_446121

 

(Discussing Sochi) Interviewers: I hope he won’t hear this, but the Japanese skater fell many times and here we were celebrating each of his falls as if they were goals scored by the Spanish football team.

(T/N:  )

Javier: (laughs) Well, we risk a lot in our programs and even if we make mistakes, in the end, Yuzuru and I, we are very complete skaters so we don’t only depend on the jumps. Thus if we make mistakes on the jumps, we have something that shelters us. Some other skaters don’t have that so if they fail on the jumps it’s over. But skaters as complete as Yuzuru and I have that “wildcard”, so to speak, if we make mistakes.

 

(Discussing Europeans)

Interviewer: Are you worried about competing against the Russian guys, in Moscow?

Javi: No, I’m not. After all, the judges know me so well and I’m not new anymore. So, maybe (I'd be worried) if I competed in Japan against a Japanese skater which is the most direct to me… But, even if the Russian guys do well at Europeans, if I do well too, the result shouldn’t be different.

 

Another interview on February 17th at Pyeongchang (about Yuzuru’s LP)

http://www.cope.es/audios/tiempo-juego/javier-fernandez-aunque-haya-sido-oro-una-medalla-olimpica-que-era-nuestro-sueno_464395

Javier: The truth is I haven’t seen him compete. I’ve seen his score and I believe his LP must have had some mistakes because he could’ve earned some more points- but I don’t know because I didn’t watch him. Still, it’s clear that he was the best at this competition.

 

Spanish media... Always classy...

 

(I'd love to see someone trying to talk like this about Javi in front of Yuzu, I wonder what his reaction would be like )

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

1 時間前, Nuitsukiさんが言いました:

@¯\_(ツ)_/¯ hm, i agree with you about not being able to handle pressure is a mental weakness. But it also depends on 1) what kind and amount of pressure 2) how weak is the mentality. 

Sure, Nathan doesn’t have nerve of steel, his mentality has a lot to desire. I don’t think he is at Yuzu-level, but is he weaker than Shoma or Javier? Probably yes, probably no. For sure he is stronger than Mikhail, who is also a technically strong skater.

1) the pressure Nathan faces is far much stronger than Shoma imo. While Shoma was also aiming for gold, the media did clearly show that PC would be a showdown between Yuzu and Nathan. Japan had 2 medal contenders, and most of expectation was on Yuzu, while Nathan had to suffer whole contry expectation alone.

I don’t look down Shoma, but he wasn’t doing well when being put at the spotlight either (GPF 2017 was really bad tbh. A couple of his quads were UR, but obviously tech panel didn’t care. 4cc was better, but it wasn’t the best of him too). It is very apparent that he enjoys staying behind Yuzu, or as someone said on this forum before, Yuzu is like a ‘shield’ to absorb part of media and pressure. Nathan doesn’t have that shield. 

2) if Nathan is weak, then what could we say about Javi or Patrick? I don’t think Nathan’s mentality is much weaker than them. Don’t forget Javi was aiming for podium, while Nathan wanted gold. That could also create difference. And he doesn’t have much experience too. 

In short, i neither categorize Nathan’s mentality as weak nor strong. He does well under certain circumstances, and does bad under other conditions. Just like anyone. The current men skater that has strong mentality is, imo, only Yuzu.

 

 

My point is simple. Chen's mental fortitude is not strong enough yet, for now, to deliver on the expectations put on his young shoulders. Whether or not he will develop stronger mentality remains to be seen. But at this point, when pitted head to head against Hanyu, since they are competing in the same major competitions for the same prizes, when it comes to a high pressure environment, he doesn't have the strength to withstand it yet, much less convert it into power the way Hanyu does. Don't get me wrong, Hanyu has his own moments of weakness when it comes to smaller battles and even some major ones where he's lost to Chen, Fernandez and others, but when push comes to shove where it truly, *truly* matters, he has triumphed where others, Chen included, have faltered. So to sum it up, the answer to your main question is yes, for now. When it comes to winning the ultimate prize, he hasn't proven his strength yet, which to me means he is still in the weak category, not because he hasn't won it, but because he has yet to put out a performance where he didn't falter bad enough to put him out of the running altogether. 

 

And when it comes the competitive mindset, when pitted against sharks like Hanyu, yes, Chan and Fernandez are in the weaker category. They are not weak when you compare them with one another, because they are on the same playing field, though between the two, I do find Fernandez a lot more formidable mentally then Chan. So perhaps in a world where Hanyu does not exist, I might have thought them strong. But he does and the moment you throw him and his competitiveness into the mix, they all look weak to me now. Understandably so, too. I actually find them more relatable in this aspect than Hanyu.

 

Uno has shown clear signs of faltering as well when in high pressure environments in the absence of Hanyu. In this, he isn't strong in my books either. But contrary to Chen, he's done well in major competitions where he went head to head with Hanyu, even when he had to skate right after Hanyu. But I think when he does this, it's more because he doesn't feel the pressure (which Chen undoubtedly does, even if he doesn't want to admit it), which I can neither label as strength nor weakness because he hasn't overcome or was overcome by anything. 

 

Hope I was able to answer your questions to your satisfaction.

[Nuitsuki]

@¯\_(ツ)_/¯ i understand your point. Very interesting how we look at them from different views.

i agree that we have to wait until someone truly overcomes the adversity and prove themselves that they can deliver under less than ideal conditions. It surprises me that when yuzu was around others’ age (2nd-3rd year at senior circuits), he was already challenged and showed his fighting spirit (WC 2012, wc 2013), while i feel like for the youngsters those challenges have not come yet. I can see and respect Shoma’s fight at WC (though it left a bad taste in my mouth bc of his scores and result, but that’s not sth he could control), Boyang’s at SA 2017. Those fights hopefully would benefit them in developing resilience and mentality.

All of this talk makes me appreciate Yuzu more. Becoming champion is amazing, but continuing to deliver and maintaining as the champion are truly miraculous.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

@Nuitsuki

 

Adding to my answer, if I were to take Hanyu out of the equation altogether, here's how I would currently rank the skaters you mentioned in terms if mental fortitude:

 

Fernandez > Uno > Chan > Chen