General Skating Chat

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

23 時間前, MrPuddingさんが言いました:

go max Ci

 

I think not all elements have a max GOE of 3, tho? Most of them only have a max GOE of 1 point something. Like the spins and stepseq? I'm not 100% sure but other than quads, I think all the other elements have varying max GOEs lower than 3? So while I get the guy's sentiments, his scoring basis and by extension, calculation, is utterly flawed?

[kelly]

5 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

I think not all elements have a max GOE of 3, tho? Most of them only have a max GOE of 1 point something. Like the spins and stepseq? I'm not 100% sure but other than quads, I think all the other elements have varying max GOEs lower than 3? So while I get the guy's sentiments, his scoring basis and by extension, calculation, is utterly flawed?

Judges give GOES up to 3 but except the 3A and quads they get factored

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

32 分, kellyさんが言いました:

Judges give GOES up to 3 but except the 3A and quads they get factored

 

Oh yeah. That's how it works. Did this person factor the elements that need to be factored then?

[kelly]

Just now, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

Oh yeah. That's how it works. Did this guy factor the elements that need to be factored then?

I'm guessing they were talking about quads so in that case it'll stay 3, yes

[EisElle]

@¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Joey was giving GOE like judges would (so using range -3 +3 on every element) and I guess then factorized them to get the final score. I made a quick calculation and those factored goe for Yuzu are indeed about 26, as Joey wrote  

the factoring for 3A and positive goe on quads is 1, for negative goe on quads is >1 tho (so -3 from judges becomes a -4, so mistakes on quads weight a bit more). On triples (not 3A) +1 is 0.7 and +3 is 2.1 and iirc same for stsq and spins...  

Solo double and single jump have different factoring too

[xeyra]

6 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

Oh yeah. That's how it works. Did this person factor the elements that need to be factored then?

 

The final TES score in that re-scoring was calculated with the proper factoring, even if they presented each element with their full GOE, because that's what the judges do, give a GOE from -3 to +3.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

12 分, kellyさんが言いました:

I'm guessing they were talking about quads so in that case it'll stay 3, yes

 

6 分, LadyLouさんが言いました:

@¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Joey was giving GOE like judges would (so using range -3 +3 on every element) and I guess then factorized them to get the final score. I made a quick calculation and those factored goe for Yuzu are indeed about 26, as Joey wrote  

the factoring for 3A and positive goe on quads is 1, for negative goe on quads is >1 tho (so -3 from judges becomes a -4, so mistakes on quads weight a bit more). On triples (not 3A) +1 is 0.7 and +3 is 2.1 and iirc same for stsq and spins...  

double and single jump have different factoring too

 

5 分, xeyraさんが言いました:

 

The final TES score in that re-scoring was calculated with the proper factoring, even if they presented each element with their full GOE, because that's what the judges do, give a GOE from -3 to +3.

 

Oh! Alrighty then. Thanks! Not really big on math, as you can probably already tell. And here I thought Hanyu can't amaze me any further until he manages to land that thing in competition...>_<

[yumeaki]

I have been reading comments about over- and under- scoring with reasons such as reducing the gap among skaters or big Fed influence or simply just being biased. Can someone explain to this noob how Fed comes into the picture? I literally imagining illegal passing of money under the table, judges being held at gun point in dark alley... *gotta stop watching dramas*

 

[WinForPooh]

1 hour ago, yumeaki said:

I have been reading comments about over- and under- scoring with reasons such as reducing the gap among skaters or big Fed influence or simply just being biased. Can someone explain to this noob how Fed comes into the picture? I literally imagining illegal passing of money under the table, judges being held at gun point in dark alley... *gotta stop watching dramas*

 

lol

 

Your scenario is not that off, tbh. Judges are not independently hired by the ISU, as neutral contractors who will judge without bias. ISU's idea of countering bias seems, to me, to be - let's give everybody equal opportunity to be biased, and that will even it out! If you look at skatingscores website, you'll see that each judge is labelled according to their country. There won't be more than one from one country in any competition. These individual figure skating judges are chosen and sent by skating federations of those countries. These judges are therefore under their feds' influence. If a judge wants to be picked by their fed to be sent as the judge to a competition, it's understood that they have to judge according to their fed's expectations. Yeah, the system is that weird. 

 

Now, do smaller federations have qualified judges? No, not all of them. So they're at a disadvantage right from the beginning. Then there's the fact that there's a limited number of judges in a competition, so some countries will of course not be represented. So you have unofficial alliances. If a smaller fed has a skater in the competition and they need their skater to go through to the free skate, but the smaller fed and the skater don't have the reputation to break that 7.5 barrier in PCS, what can they do? But then If Fed A is not in a competition's judging panel, but Fed B is, and later Fed B's judge is not in one and Fed A's judge is, what kind of understanding could possibly be reached? 

 

At the Olympics, the Chinese and US judges for men's event both scored pretty damn ludicrously, but the Chinese one is getting investigated (is it over, I don't know what happened) but the US one didn't. That is also a display of federation's power. Japanese judges don't play the game well, which is to their credit but not to their skaters' benefit.  

 

If you spend some time clicking through the whole season's breakdown by judges' nationalities, you'll have a few interesting reactions! TL;DR - individual judges are chosen by their countries' feds, and if you're really neutral, you might not be sent for a competition again because a fed's aim is to get their skater to place as high as possible. 

[yuzuangel]

2 hours ago, WinForPooh said:

lol

 

Your scenario is not that off, tbh. Judges are not independently hired by the ISU, as neutral contractors who will judge without bias. ISU's idea of countering bias seems, to me, to be - let's give everybody equal opportunity to be biased, and that will even it out! If you look at skatingscores website, you'll see that each judge is labelled according to their country. There won't be more than one from one country in any competition. These individual figure skating judges are chosen and sent by skating federations of those countries. These judges are therefore under their feds' influence. If a judge wants to be picked by their fed to be sent as the judge to a competition, it's understood that they have to judge according to their fed's expectations. Yeah, the system is that weird. 

 

Now, do smaller federations have qualified judges? No, not all of them. So they're at a disadvantage right from the beginning. Then there's the fact that there's a limited number of judges in a competition, so some countries will of course not be represented. So you have unofficial alliances. If a smaller fed has a skater in the competition and they need their skater to go through to the free skate, but the smaller fed and the skater don't have the reputation to break that 7.5 barrier in PCS, what can they do? But then If Fed A is not in a competition's judging panel, but Fed B is, and later Fed B's judge is not in one and Fed A's judge is, what kind of understanding could possibly be reached? 

 

At the Olympics, the Chinese and US judges for men's event both scored pretty damn ludicrously, but the Chinese one is getting investigated (is it over, I don't know what happened) but the US one didn't. That is also a display of federation's power. Japanese judges don't play the game well, which is to their credit but not to their skaters' benefit.  

 

If you spend some time clicking through the whole season's breakdown by judges' nationalities, you'll have a few interesting reactions! TL;DR - individual judges are chosen by their countries' feds, and if you're really neutral, you might not be sent for a competition again because a fed's aim is to get their skater to place as high as possible. 

Wow, great explanation! Explains a lot 

Whole system is built in to be biased, though  But how does that explain when the entire panel of judges seems to score big-federation skaters higher across the board? Does the fed buy favors for everyone? Are judges just scared of scoring big-fed skaters lower for fear of some retribution? Lol

[yumeaki]

2 hours ago, WinForPooh said:

lol

 

Your scenario is not that off, tbh. Judges are not independently hired by the ISU, as neutral contractors who will judge without bias. ISU's idea of countering bias seems, to me, to be - let's give everybody equal opportunity to be biased, and that will even it out! If you look at skatingscores website, you'll see that each judge is labelled according to their country. There won't be more than one from one country in any competition. These individual figure skating judges are chosen and sent by skating federations of those countries. These judges are therefore under their feds' influence. If a judge wants to be picked by their fed to be sent as the judge to a competition, it's understood that they have to judge according to their fed's expectations. Yeah, the system is that weird. 

 

Now, do smaller federations have qualified judges? No, not all of them. So they're at a disadvantage right from the beginning. Then there's the fact that there's a limited number of judges in a competition, so some countries will of course not be represented. So you have unofficial alliances. If a smaller fed has a skater in the competition and they need their skater to go through to the free skate, but the smaller fed and the skater don't have the reputation to break that 7.5 barrier in PCS, what can they do? But then If Fed A is not in a competition's judging panel, but Fed B is, and later Fed B's judge is not in one and Fed A's judge is, what kind of understanding could possibly be reached? 

 

At the Olympics, the Chinese and US judges for men's event both scored pretty damn ludicrously, but the Chinese one is getting investigated (is it over, I don't know what happened) but the US one didn't. That is also a display of federation's power. Japanese judges don't play the game well, which is to their credit but not to their skaters' benefit.  

 

If you spend some time clicking through the whole season's breakdown by judges' nationalities, you'll have a few interesting reactions! TL;DR - individual judges are chosen by their countries' feds, and if you're really neutral, you might not be sent for a competition again because a fed's aim is to get their skater to place as high as possible. 

 

Wow, that’s insightful. If the judges are sent by the skating federation, then it’s no wonder. I was expecting individual judge to ownself apply with ISU to be the season’s judge. Guess procedures such as self-declaration of conflict of interest wouldn’t work here. ISU hiring their own independent judges won’t work too (No budget to feed those judges!).

 

While I can understand that some components of the scores are really subjective, isn’t GOE based on some bullet points? The scores are publicly released so I don’t understand how any judges can blatantly under- or over- score. Guess rice bowl is more important than judgment from outsiders…

 

Your opinion of ISU countering bias by giving everybody equal opportunity to be biased sounds like the solution now… 

[WinForPooh]

4 minutes ago, yumeaki said:

 

Wow, that’s insightful. If the judges are sent by the skating federation, then it’s no wonder. I was expecting individual judge to ownself apply with ISU to be the season’s judge. Guess procedures such as self-declaration of conflict of interest wouldn’t work here. ISU hiring their own independent judges won’t work too (No budget to feed those judges!).

 

While I can understand that some components of the scores are really subjective, isn’t GOE based on some bullet points? The scores are publicly released so I don’t understand how any judges can blatantly under- or over- score. Guess rice bowl is more important than judgment from outsiders…

 

Your opinion of ISU countering bias by giving everybody equal opportunity to be biased sounds like the solution now… 

It should be like that, right? For a while ISU said judges' scores would be anonymous - like, the panel is there for us to see, but who gave what scores would be anonymous, to be free from federation pressure, after The Big Scandal (which ended in a couple of suspensions and now everything is back to business as usual). But that ended in judges propping up their feds' skaters with no accountability at all. So now we can find out which countries the judges are from and who scored whom how much, and what GOEs were given, and that should make them accountable, but in what actually happens... Well, the most obvious one is to look at the mandatory GOE deduction for solo jump in SP without clear and recognisable steps/choreo element preceding jump, and how many judges follow that rule. We make a lot of noise about such things, and they ignore it, so that seems to be their strategy.  

[WinForPooh]

44 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

Wow, great explanation! Explains a lot 

Whole system is built in to be biased, though  But how does that explain when the entire panel of judges seems to score big-federation skaters higher across the board? Does the fed buy favors for everyone? Are judges just scared of scoring big-fed skaters lower for fear of some retribution? Lol

Oooh, conspiracy theories!  I love them, let me get my tinfoil hat.

 

Completely hypothetically, if I were a judge sent from, let's say, the skating federation of Latvia (random because I love the name of the country, but it might fit because Deniss), and my fed finally has a skater who can get some attention and maybe become popular, raise the profile of the sport in the country, get decent placements and sponsorship and so on, would I realistically put a, let's say, US or Russian skater's PCS under seven even if I thought that's all they deserved? I wouldn't, because those feds' judges' scoring influence the perceived corridor for my skater, too. And I'd consider those feds' influence with the ISU governing council. I'd want to give my skater the best shot they can have, and accept that that's not going to put them above the top favourites, but at least will improve their placement. I wouldn't want to make enemies by declaring there were no transitions there so here, take a four. Mind you, that would also get me investigated because the accepted corridor would be much higher and falling outside that would make me the perceived bent judge! Smaller feds would choose to keep the bigger ones happy. But there are more of the smaller feds so that helps establish that corridor of scoring - five out of nine judges getting with the programme is enough to do that.

 

But honestly? My tinfoil conspiracy doesn't really hold up because judges sometimes just don't make sense. In 2016, there were (rare) times Nathan got lowballed by the US judge. Yuzu has been lowballed by Japanese judges. Hell, even PChiddy has been not inflated too highly by the Canadian judge. Judges from smaller feds can score like they're on acid, and there's that Mexican judge that makes me just want to eat my tinfoil hat. Either my tinfoil hat isn't tinfoilly enough and the conspiracies are deeper and more intricate than I can imagine, or it's all just bloody bonkers. 

 

 

[Neenah]

2 hours ago, yuzuangel said:

Wow, great explanation! Explains a lot 

Whole system is built in to be biased, though  But how does that explain when the entire panel of judges seems to score big-federation skaters higher across the board? Does the fed buy favors for everyone? Are judges just scared of scoring big-fed skaters lower for fear of some retribution? Lol

There are multiple reason why this would happen (just my own interpretation of course)

- The corridor: the system is set in a way that encourages the judges to try and predict what the others in the panel are going to score. If a judge is to far off the mean they are flagged and asked to explain their scores (the case of the Chinese judge at the Olympics). If the skater is well known or from a country with reputation for producing good skaters, the the judges will naturally go higher in their prediction and score above what they would do for a skater with less reputation.

 

-Judges experience: this is mostly relevant with judges that don't judge big competitions often.These judges come with a perceived idea that the top skaters or big federation skaters are the best based on their previous scores, and that added to the first point (the corridor) makes them go higher than they should with their scores. They can also be star struck when judging a very well known skater or a world medalist for the first time 

 

- The ISU and the sport's popularity: (this is definitely is just a theory of mine so take it with a grain of salt) I think the the ISU does try to influence the judges to ensure certain results. For example (hypothetical) if the ISU wanted to revive interest in the sport in the US they would instruct the judges to push the US skaters and artificially create a star, which is what could get people interested. Or they may push for leveling the playing field even if it meant underscoring or overscoring to make competitions more exciting. The feds have power over their own judges but the ISU have power over all judges so it makes senses that they can influence their scores 

 

Conspiracy theories aside, I do believe that the corridor and predicting others scores is the main reason for the problems with PC and GOE. This should not be a thing and judges need to score based on the performance they watched and not on what they think other judges would give, this is the only way to counter the problem of reputation scoring. I don't think the judges are corrupt (some of them maybe) and I do believe that they do this because they love the sport and want to be part of it but there is so much pressure on them from external sources (malicious or not) that is skewing results as well as hurting them and the sport

[kaeryth]