General Skating Chat

[moonkat]

37 minutes ago, SSS said:

It is actually great to go to 4CC next year  He will definitely get his silvera big relief...jk

 

How likely is it that Yuzuru would go? 

[Hanmgse]

1 minute ago, moonkat said:

How likely is it that Yuzuru would go? 

I don't think it's very likely, unless he personally wants to win it.

[yuzupon]

Detailed break down of World Standing done by Alice.

Clicky

[cinemacoconut]

Who are the new skaters moving to TCC?? 

[singermelodie1]

21 minutes ago, cinemacoconut said:

Who are the new skaters moving to TCC?? 

I can see Wakaba going there but don't quote me on this

[xeyra]

50 minutes ago, cinemacoconut said:

Who are the new skaters moving to TCC?? 

 

No one knows outside of the unconfirmed Wakaba rumors. 

[cinemacoconut]

Wondered why marin chose rafael over orser cuz orser? Maybe gabby didnt like it. I can c orser acccepting one more male skater and perhaps one more female skater..

 

Kind of wish zagitova or Zhenya moved to TCC cuz they need skating lessons... 

[Neenah]

Does the federation pay the cost for coaching or is it the sponsors? 

 

I keep seeing suggestions for skaters to go to this famous coach or that and no one is discussing whether it is financially possible to do so. It must be much cheaper to stay in your own country after all and as far as I know FS doesn't really pay much. So unless there is someone willing to pay the costs I don't understand how the skaters can just pick whatever place they want to train in. I can see it for Marin because she has lots of sponsors but I am not sure about the other girls, unless the federation pays for it.

[xeyra]

5 minutes ago, Neenah said:

Does the federation pay the cost for coaching or is it the sponsors? 

 

I keep seeing suggestions for skaters to go to this famous coach or that and no one is discussing whether it is financially possible to do so. It must be much cheaper to stay in your own country after all and as far as I know FS doesn't really pay much. So unless there is someone willing to pay the costs I don't understand how the skaters can just pick whatever place they want to train in. I can see it for Marin because she has lots of sponsors but I am not sure about the other girls, unless the federation pays for it.

 

JSF supports their skaters, I believe, and didn't they pay for Yuzuru to go to TCC before he got the ANA sponsorship (and probably contribute to it still)?

[Neenah]

11 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

JSF supports their skaters, I believe, and didn't they pay for Yuzuru to go to TCC before he got the ANA sponsorship (and probably contribute to it still)?

Good to know that they are willing to that, those girls deserve to the opportunity. I hope it applies to all skaters equally as well

[robin]

I think Kaori would fit equally well in TCC as Wakaba would but two TJ girls would probably be an overkill. Well, I'll be super happy if Wakaba gets in

[xeyra]

31 minutes ago, Neenah said:

Good to know that they are willing to that, those girls deserve to the opportunity. I hope it applies to all skaters equally as well

 

They have different levels of support, I believe, and the level a skater has depends on their rankings, results, etc.. Wakaba and Marin, for example, will be in the top group, and I think those get the most support. 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

2 時間前, micaelisさんが言いました:

Yuzu sets the bar in any competition.  Even when he skates last all those skaters in the hunt for medals know he's the one they have to beat.  The problem is that the only way they think they can beat him is by going after the high BV and hoping he'll make a mistake on a jump or two to make the impossible possible.  They know they can't beat him on spins, on step sequence, on choreographic sequence.  Those are the places he picks up so many of his GOEs.  As for PCS, they're still skating junior level, he's skating senior level.  I don't think the judges are deliberately underscoring his skates.  I think it's more that their expectations on his performances are so much higher than they have for his competitors.  If they were deliberately underscoring him that doesn't explain the fact that he's the only skater who has set any scoring records since the 2013 French grand prix when Patrick Chan broke Yuzu's short program record, only to have Yuzu reclaim the record two or three weeks later.  After that as far as setting scoring records Yuzu's been the only game in town.

 

When it comes to certain parts of the PCS, sure, since those are subjective and arbitrary so judges can simply keep expecting more and never be satisfied. But that doesn't work with GOEs because those aren't subjective. And that's exactly where he's being underscored currently (even while being ahead of all the others, he actually deserves more, believe it or not). For most of his tech elements, he fulfills the criteria with change to spare. If the guy fulfills 6 out of the 8 criteria when the minimum for full GOE is 4, you can't be giving the guy anything less than +3 just because he doesn't fulfill all 8 criteria. You are not suppose to expect anybody to fulfill more than 4 in the first place. Yet the guy, being Extra, gives you 6. What you should be doing is punch in +3 while cursing the system for not letting you punch in more. Yet here you are only punching in a +2. Sometimes even only giving him a +1. That's not how it works. 

 

So the judges really can't expect any better when awarding GOEs yet you still have judges here and there not giving him the full scores he deserves which end up pulling his overall scores down. 

 

They were more by the book with him up until he did that 322 and then the 330 thing. Then they realized if they kept scoring him fairly, even when he doesn't skate clean, he'd still have a comfortable margin over others even if they had higher BV and skated clean. While I'm thankful because this prevented him from being accused of what Chan was accused of in his hey-day (although in Hanyu's case, his scores would actually still be mathematically fair, but people won't see that) his WC17 performance deserved so much more than that 223 they gave him. Just because it's a WR doesn't mean it wasn't underscored. And if it's underscored, we shouldn't be happy and satisfied simply because it's a WR. We should be suitably impressed that it's *still* a WR, tho. xD

 

He is still breaking records because he is far and beyond enough to still manage it while being underscored. Because even the judges who are charged to underscore him can't consistently underscore him on every element (unless, of course, they're from the US of A, but there can only be one of them per panel, phew!). Because blatantly biased as they are, that would be too blatant. And among the judges, there are still a few who are willing to give him what he deserves so even though his scores get pulled down by those with an agenda, these few are able to keep them from dropping outrageously and unfathomably.

 

Judges can get away with outrageously awarding scores for things that weren't actually done, but they can't go too far in not giving scores for the things that are obviously and indisputably there. Because that will take them completely out of the gray area they are now still able to hide in.

 

Hanyu probably knows this very well, and factored all these into his calculations which he acted based upon. I'm thinking, apart from simply being an idealistic perfectionist, this is also the highly realistic reason behind why he honed his skating to a level where it gives him insurance in that even if they were to hold back on him while overscoring others, there's still a very good chance that his scores would be enough for him to win. And his calculations have been right so far. So right he's been able to still dominate with relatively lower-scoring quads and less of them to boot, so long as he skates clean. Which may also be why he's been placing so much emphasis on skating clean, other than simply fulfilling an ideal.

 

I'm not sure if he expected it to lead to this current level of blatant overscoring of others though, lol. Especially in comps where neither himself nor the others who "set the standard", so to speak, are present. Talk about harmful domino-ish side effects in trying to reach perfection. Or a butterfly one, perhaps. Either way, consequences, haha. >_<

[EisElle]

3 hours ago, robin said:

I think Kaori would fit equally well in TCC as Wakaba would but two TJ girls would probably be an overkill. Well, I'll be super happy if Wakaba gets in

but Kaori has a team that can package her really well (and actually understands the current scoring system). In time she will become more refined and she has already improved during the season (tbh the only thing she lacks is the push of the fed to raise her pcs ) But I love her with Mai, I don't want to see them separated, they are obviously helping heach other so much

 

I am already too excited about the rumour of Wakababy going to TCC, I'll be disappointed if it doesn't turn true

If Wakaba goes, can we rename TCC as the Axel Club?

 

I am a bit out of the loop and still recovering from Milan (yes, I'm superslow), but I saw lots of rumours floating around. What is this thing about Marin? And I heard Didier Gailhaguet wants P/C to leave Marie-France and go to Marina Zueva? Of course Marina is a great coach too, but I'd be sorry if they were forced to change their coaches because of that man

*now off to catch up with other skaters' threads* (I'm dreading to catch up with the Gen Yuzu Chat tbh)

 

 

 

now a bit of ranting time 

 

@¯\_(ツ)_/¯ <whole post >

I agree!

 

I'll be forever salty for Yuzuru's 4CC 2017 and WC 2017 SP 3A that didn't get full +3 (while other 3As with easier entry and exit and less gorgeous in general got full +3 from ALL the judges... I'm not saying those 3As didn't deserved those +3, but if they get +3 than Yuzu's 3A should have got +4 at least, and that some judges gave +2 is an insult. At least this season Yuzuru always got +3 on his SP 3A... maybe finally  ISU held a seminar to show that counter-3A is freaking harder than a single SE into 3A)

I'll forever be salty for Yuzuru's undescored WR in Helsinki. And I'll forever be salty when I see jumps prepared for the whole length of the rink and no flow out get +2, when Yuzuru has to kill himself on crazy entries if he wants to get the same and the smallest flaw results in goe being knocked down. And I'll forever be salty about the US judge's score at Olympics, too.
I don't doubt Yuzuru enjoys killing himself on crazy entries, it is how he conceives jumps, as part of the choreo, but still...it should be reflected in scores properly. It's the comparison that drives me mad. I mean, there are objective bullets that judges should consider but one could say: this judge is really strict, for him/her a jump needs to be Boyang size to receive the bullet for good height/distance, or have multiple counters to hit the difficult entry bullet... but then you see the same judge gifting +2 for flawed jumps (flawed technique or hitting no bullets) AND, on top of that, also tech panels forgetting to be as strict with other skaters' elements as they are on Yuzuru's (or Boyang) and that can't be explained if not with blatant double standards.

For how nice Yuzuru is, I'm sure he is pissed looking at some protocols, but the only thing he can do is not to leave room or reason to judge to underscore him. Hit 7 or 8 bullets if 6 aren't enough. Do bigger jumps, with better flow, more intricate footwork. True, he works double to get the bare minimum he deserves, but hopefully he takes pride in making his elements better every single time.

 

more useless and repetitive rant under spoiler, so you can skip it

Spoiler

It annoys me when some people say we have no right to complain about this double standards just because Yuzuru won or has won more than everyone else. Like, heck, this is about the fairness of the sport and rewarding a skater, a real person who works hard to do everything he does.

Yuzuru broke the system just being amazing following their own rules, so they thought it was OK to destroy that very system so others could (artificially) keep up. And it's sad, because there was no need to do that. It's not like Yuzuru has always been on top of his game, and there are skaters who can keep up in different ways, without any need of inflated scores. ISU thinks they need a bunch of people getting high scores to impress the audience, but it doesn't understand that you can't make a star out of a high score alone (and back in 2012 in Nice people didn't gave 17 years old Yuzu a standing ovation because they knew he was going to get a huge score).

Olympics were great because skaters were great and programs were great and the audience could see that. Audience was clapping like mad at some skaters in the first groups at men fs in Milan because the skaters were great, who cared about the scores! That part of the competition was great even without the top names and without scores in the 200.

They can't artificially create a new star, they should instead leave the performances speak for themselves. Everyone in the skating world knows that "the ice is slippery". It doeasn't matter which score one got yesterday, it's only today that matters. So why does it matter that much that another skater gets 219 instead of 210 or 200? No one is going to be another Yuzuru Hanyu, it doesn't matter how close their scores are (and it's unfair to even want something like that)

 

 

btw has the Ari Zakarian interview been posted here yet? I'm a bit confused about what I read here and what I read on twitter

Spoiler

(and has the latest of Sonia Bianchetti's BS comment made it here already? not that there is nothing new...)

 

[Sammie]

6 minutes ago, LadyLou said:

but Kaori has a team that can package her really well (and actually understands the current scoring system). In time she will become more refined and she has already improved during the season (tbh the only thing she lacks is the push of the fed to raise her pcs ) But I love her with Mai, I don't want to see them separated, they are obviously helping heach other so much

 

I am already too excited about the rumour of Wakababy going to TCC, I'll be disappointed if it doesn't turn true

If Wakaba goes, can we rename TCC as the Axel Club?

 

I am a bit out of the loop and still recovering from Milan (yes, I'm superslow), but I saw lots of rumours floating around. What is this thing about Marin? And I heard Didier Gailhaguet wants P/C to leave Marie-France and go to Marina Zueva? Of course Marina is a great coach too, but I'd be sorry if they were forced to change their coaches because of that man

*now off to catch up with other skaters' threads* (I'm dreading to catch up with the Gen Yuzu Chat tbh)

 

 

 

now a bit of ranting time 

 

@¯\_(ツ)_/¯ <whole post >

I agree!

 

I'll be forever salty for Yuzuru's 4CC 2017 and WC 2017 SP 3A that didn't get full +3 (while other 3As with easier entry and exit and less gorgeous in general got full +3 from ALL the judges... I'm not saying those 3As didn't deserved those +3, but if they get +3 than Yuzu's 3A should have got +4 at least, and that some judges gave +2 is an insult. At least this season Yuzuru always got +3 on his SP 3A... maybe finally  ISU held a seminar to show that counter-3A is freaking harder than a single SE into 3A)

I'll forever be salty for Yuzuru's undescored WR in Helsinki. And I'll forever be salty when I see jumps prepared for the whole length of the rink and no flow out get +2, when Yuzuru has to kill himself on crazy entries if he wants to get the same and the smallest flaw results in goe being knocked down. And I'll forever be salty about the US judge's score at Olympics, too.
I don't doubt Yuzuru enjoys killing himself on crazy entries, it is how he conceives jumps, as part of the choreo, but still...it should be reflected in scores properly. It's the comparison that drives me mad. I mean, there are objective bullets that judges should consider but one could say: this judge is really strict, for him/her a jump needs to be Boyang size to receive the bullet for good height/distance, or have multiple counters to hit the difficult entry bullet... but then you see the same judge gifting +2 for flawed jumps (flawed technique or hitting no bullets) AND, on top of that, also tech panels forgetting to be as strict with other skaters' elements as they are on Yuzuru's (or Boyang) and that can't be explained if not with blatant double standards.

For how nice Yuzuru is, I'm sure he is pissed looking at some protocols, but the only thing he can do is not to leave room or reason to judge to underscore him. Hit 7 or 8 bullets if 6 aren't enough. Do bigger jumps, with better flow, more intricate footwork. True, he works double to get the bare minimum he deserves, but hopefully he takes pride in making his elements better every single time.

 

more useless and repetitive rant under spoiler, so you can skip it

  Reveal hidden contents

It annoys me when some people say we have no right to complain about this double standards just because Yuzuru won or has won more than everyone else. Like, heck, this is about the fairness of the sport and rewarding a skater, a real person who works hard to do everything he does.

Yuzuru broke the system just being amazing following their own rules, so they thought it was OK to destroy that very system so others could (artificially) keep up. And it's sad, because there was no need to do that. It's not like Yuzuru has always been on top of his game, and there are skaters who can keep up in different ways, without any need of inflated scores. ISU thinks they need a bunch of people getting high scores to impress the audience, but it doesn't understand that you can't make a star out of a high score alone (and back in 2012 in Nice people didn't gave 17 years old Yuzu a standing ovation because they knew he was going to get a huge score).

Olympics were great because skaters were great and programs were great and the audience could see that. Audience was clapping like mad at some skaters in the first groups at men fs in Milan because the skaters were great, who cared about the scores! That part of the competition was great even without the top names and without scores in the 200.

They can't artificially create a new star, they should instead leave the performances speak for themselves. Everyone in the skating world knows that "the ice is slippery". It doeasn't matter which score one got yesterday, it's only today that matters. So why does it matter that much that another skater gets 219 instead of 210 or 200? No one is going to be another Yuzuru Hanyu, it doesn't matter how close their scores are (and it's unfair to even want something like that)

 

 

btw has the Ari Zakarian interview been posted here yet? I'm a bit confused about what I read here and what I read on twitter

  Reveal hidden contents

(and has the latest of Sonia Bianchetti's BS comment made it here already? not that there is nothing new...)

 

Ari Zakarian interview is posted in the Knick knack section. I don’t see anyone talking about Sonia yet and 

Spoiler

I kind of want to rant about that director but I’m going wait and see.