General Skating Chat

[Eclair]

double post

[WinForPooh]

4 hours ago, Xen said:

@fireovertheice: Okay, I've managed to force myself to rewatch Nathan's LP from fancam, and went even better-I grabbed my mother (who actually did practice ballet) to sit down and watch with me and discuss. 

 

To begin my discussion, I would prefer that people actually go check out the wikipedia entries on both the story of Mao's Last Dancer (movie and book), and the entry on Li Cunxin, the dancer. To preface my analysis and explain my conclusion, I might need to explain a bit about the 1950's and the cultural revolution. If you want to skip the political/history stuff, skip to the end as I'll do the backstory in spoiler tags. 

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 I'm not sure if Nathan's parents were children born during the 50's, and if they've ever experienced the cultural revolution. My family did. It is, rightly so, a period in modern chinese history that many Chinese today said, delayed China's development by 20 years, if not more. It was a period where political ideology overthrew tradition, overthrew history, overthrew ethics. Whatever Chinese culture historically valued, pretty much got shredded and tossed to the winds. Intellectuals were considered corrupting morals, so schools were shut down, teachers were paraded in the streets as traitors to the cause. The larger cities were less affected, but in the smaller towns and countryside where most people resided that was the norm. From stories I hear from my family members who lived through that, there were neighbors betraying neighbors, friendships that broke up under the scrutiny of public shame, even families that were broken when someone outed another as a morally corrupt intellectual. It was a time where everyone was poor, starving, and trust was a premium. 

 

To me, the music cuts and the story of Mao's last dancer itself, is a story of hope and triumph against despair. Where for the dancer in the story, ballet was transformative, and a savior against the dark circumstances of his life. That's the overarching theme I get from the music. For Nathan's performance, my question for him would be, "Is figure skating for you, what ballet was for this protagonist?" Or even, "Can you comprehend and express what ballet was for this person?" And in reply to that, no, in that performance, I don't think Nathan showed that he understood the music, nor the program, and least of all the idea that ballet was the lone hope for that dancer. 

 

When watching with my mother, she only liked that one lone 4 Salchow that he landed. The rest she said, he looked like he'd fall at any time. About 30 seconds in she even said, "This guy can't possibly have gotten on the podium." She also commented that his body is too stiff, and voiced absolute surprise that he ever did ballet. Then flat out said, "Must not have been a good dancer then."

 

Both of us thought there was a disconnect with the music-she thought the choreography wasn't good. According to her, he kept the same pace, the same mood regardless of how the music changed. When the music is soft and expansive, he didn't relax nor extend himself to match the softness. This is in great contrast to skaters like Yagudin, Plushenko, whose movements (even if not pretty) were in sync with the mood of the music-they engage and pull you in for the ride. When the music hits a climax pace, Nathan's pace didn't change. In her words, "The music is pushing you to a climax, and your mood does hit the climax, but then you watch him and the mood deflates like a popped balloon and you want to ask him why are you so nonchalant."  As for the soft, melodic sections, his movements didn't match that- pity for the lone spread eagle, there were a couple places where an ina bauer, inside spread eagle which is less taxing, or a spiral would have done wonders. But that might tire him out for the jumps right? But the jumps themselves, also had times where they were discordant with the music, especially during the softer sections as his jumps do not have good flow. Never mind the soft knees and arms needed. 

 

Personally, if it had to be skated at this Olys cycle, I think the program may have been more fitting for Yuzu, Jason, Boyang even. I don't think Nathan at this time in his life, views skating the way the dancer viewed ballet to express the music to the full. I'll just end with this line my mom gave, as her general impression of the piece: 

"There are 2 types of ballet dancers. First type of dancer is someone who really likes it, and even when they are having a bad day, that passion comes through and makes up for any deficiencies in their technique that day. The Second type of dancer is someone who picked up ballet for various reasons, whether just following someone's footsteps, or because it pays the bills or something, when they are careful and focusing they can do well, but when they have an off day there's nothing there. He (Nathan) seems to be having an off day, and he is the second type of dancer." 

 

So scoring wise:

-SS, TR: 8.25

-IN, PE, CO: 7.75, 8.0, 8.0

Total: 40.25, aka 80.5 for the LP PCS. Fair enough? 

 

I had absolutely no idea what that free skate is supposed to portray except for strange random ballet reference and a Chinese cultural background. I knew that much because of what I read and the music, not the skating. I read up on some of the history later, and then found an article on a US daily (I don't remember which) about how Nathan developed artistry (PR plant, obviously), and it said that Nathan originally did not want to do it because he had no connection to the music, and he was convinced to do it and then he believed n it. Or something of the sort. But his skating told no story, evoked no feelings. 

 

I think he shouldn't have done it. He should've skated to something contemporary, without a story behind it, so that the focus was on landing quads on the beats. But can he actually do that, have his jumps choreographed to the timing of the music and then stick to that choreography? I don't know. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, in the end he ruined significantly downgraded the artistry of Nemesis, too. It had such potential in the beginning, I was looking forward to where it would go. Where it went was backwards, losing most of what had such impact, except for that step sequence which thankfully stayed for most of the skates. But that free skate was reaching far too high for him. He either needs to invest in developing his skills or he needs to embrace his identity as a quad-jumper and choose programmes that highlight that.

 

If he weren't from the US, he wouldn't place anywhere as high as he does without developing his skills other than jumps. If he'd been in a later group, with the landed jumps, he would've got higher PCS for that programme and that just proves that the system is broken. 

[yuzupon]

Re: national biases in judging, this is what I said in the event threads:

 

On 17/02/2018 at 9:11 AM, yuzupon said:

See, this is what I was talking about after SP.

 

I had been in some sort of competition before (nothing sport, I am hopeless), which was judged. When a judge favoured me cz he knew my mother and gave me a score that was so off from the other judges, I was mightily insulted. Because to me what it said was that he did not trust my ability enough, that he had to 'prop' me so I can 'win'. 

 

That's what I always thought whenever I see national bias like that: these judges are insulting their athletes by not judging them for what they delivered, but for what country they were born in. Such people should not be allowed anywhere near any sport.

 

ETA: look at the JP judge getting the top 10 correct. Be more like the JP judge.

 

If you see the way the judges judge the ID, your head will explode. Not recommended.

I am glad that the Chinese judge for Men FS is under review, if that is accurate. But why is the US judge not under review as well? What they did was exactly the same, why is one being 'punished' while the other not? Someone answer me.

 

[WinForPooh]

1 minute ago, yuzupon said:

Re: national biases in judging, this is what I said in the event threads:

 

 

If you see the way the judges judge the ID, your head will explode. Not recommended.

I am glad that the Chinese judge for Men FS is under review, if that is accurate. But why is the US judge not under review as well? What they did was exactly the same, why is one being 'punished' while the other not? Someone answer me.

 

Because the US fed is very powerful, probably. 

[Altie]

5 minutes ago, yuzupon said:

Re: national biases in judging, this is what I said in the event threads:

 

 

If you see the way the judges judge the ID, your head will explode. Not recommended.

I am glad that the Chinese judge for Men FS is under review, if that is accurate. But why is the US judge not under review as well? What they did was exactly the same, why is one being 'punished' while the other not? Someone answer me.

 

 

I hope that the chinese federation will retaliate by asking for the review of the US judge. Honnestly, (s)he's even worse than the chinese one.

[EisElle]

4 hours ago, yuzuangel said:

 

ISU should investigate by Lorrie Parker and Weiguang Chen (AFAIK they are only investigating the Chinese judge?) but I can't help but think that if not for the Chinese judge, Boyang would be scored even lower than he deserves, whereas due to USFSA influence, American skaters are overscored across the board sometimes (and most extravagantly by the American judge, although maybe in comparison it stands out less).

Yes, it's true the scoring of the Chinese judge was outrageous but it's just as outrageous that Boyang, just because he doesn't belongs to the holy trinity of skating feds, gets less for what he does than, say, Nathan or Vincent. It breaks my heart that some people might think he doesn't deserve to be in 4th, because he freaking DOES, certainly more than Nathan with that sp he skated in PC and that empty fs that got both generous goe and generous pcs. The bad thing of isu review system of the judging is that they only search for people NOT scoring like the others, but sometimes outliers are the ones scoring right (obviously in this case Chinese judge wasn't really doing that, but there have been instances where it's happened). This very system also leads to reputation scoring and judges trying to guess what the others will score so they won't stand out, instead of going for scores they can in good faith defend, pointing at the handbook to prove their point. The US judges was as outrageous as the Chinese, completely messing the placements to obviously favour the US skaters and push down the one that was the biggest threat to them. I'm honestly grateful that US judge wasn't in the sp panel or she would have robbed Yuzuru even more That she isn't being questioned how on heart she could give the scores she gave is a disgrace and shows that it's true that big feds still have the upper hand. This is exactly like all those selective (nationality-selective) calls from tech panels 

 

Anyway, thank you @Xen for your insights for Nathan's fs. I have this feeling when Nathan talks about what he does, that he doesn't really love figure skating. He loves the jumps,sure, but I feel he is into fs mainly because he is good at it. There isn't anything wrong with that, nor it does him less deserving of a medal when he skates well, but imo it will weight on his future career. For example, I see much more committment in Vincent, despite him having flawed technique and being way more weaker in basic skating too. But he seems to be an enthusiast about what he does and that makes him likable (tho I'd love to have a word with his team )

I wonder if a change of coach would do any good to Nathan if his heart isn't there. In the end, he merely has a different concept of what figure skating is 

that said, the freedom he has in his ex and sometimes in his sp (or even in the fs when he has less quads) shows that he has all the potential he needs. But that is the problem, he has the potential but he must be willing to work with it too. (And it's ok that he threw away the choreo and the meaning of his program  for the sake of the tech, as he was climbing from the bottom and jumps were what could give him the points, but then judges should have scored accordingly) 

 

On the contrary, Boyang, Shoma seem to genuinely love skating. Boyang might have started more slowly on the components side, be it for cultural reasons or coaching approach, but he is willing to fix that and works hard and his genuinity, imo, is what makes audience feel a connection with him when he skates, because you can really tell he is doing his best out there (of course trying doesn't always mean succeeding but when subjectivity is involved it can play a part, too) 

 

[Xen]

10 hours ago, Eclair said:

OMG if Boyang looses his 4th place finish because of that  

 

I've often thought, that the way the CHN judges score Boyang shows, how they have no clue how the system works. They just extremely overscore. While the smart judges know, that they have to over score a little in every GOE and PCS category, so that it won't be too glaring, won't generate the feeling of negativity in other judges, and maybe won't even get deleted... 

Boyang should not, and I hope the Chinese Fed actually does something since Beijing 2022 is next.  But checking protocols, the CHN judge gave the highest scores which were automatically thrown out, and the scores other judges gave were all clustered together anyways, with none really deviating far from the final average. So like it or not, US, Boyang got fourth, and the CHN judge scores didn't even factor much. 

 

@Eclair: thank you for the head's up but I did go ahead and watch it. I was highly amused by the actions of the US judge they mentioned, and IMO, that judge deserves some scrutiny. If the ISU wants to inspect the US judge, TSL episode spilled all the tea. And much as the judge supports the sport of figure skating, the scores indicate that the judge supports the sport of figure skating for the US and for US's benefit only. More so than anything else.

 

The most informative part of that episode was the clip of Brian coaching jump exercises at the end. As a skater I found those pretty instructive. =) The emphasis on jumping out, how to keep edges for the lutz. I'm going to try them next practice. =)

 

The technical aspect of the axels was interesting for me, but I find all those speculations about Nathan really annoying. I could be wrong, but if Brian and Tracy got a letter from Boyang and Nathan at the same time, my guess is that they would take Boyang. It seems Brian and Tracy like taking on diamonds in the rough types - guys who haven't maxed out. I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I think Nathan is close to maxing out, very very close. He's almost hit a TES cap (he's just missing the 4A), and judges are already raining PCS and GOE candies on him. On the other hand, Boyang is far further down on PCS, still has a 4F to try out and his 4Loop isn't stable, doesn't get a lot of GOE candies either, and have at least made indications he wants to improve on PCS. Another interesting possibility is Shun Sato, who would be quite a comrade maybe to Gogolev

 

@LadyLou: you know, I think Vincent might have done the job with a little more emotion. But whether Nathan actually enjoys skating is something up in the air for me. He might, but I'm not sure if he's at a point where he can easily express it either. If we factor in that maybe he didn't really want to do the music, then, that would explain why the long felt flat. 

[Eclair]

1 hour ago, Xen said:

Boyang should not, and I hope the Chinese Fed actually does something since Beijing 2022 is next.  But checking protocols, the CHN judge gave the highest scores which were automatically thrown out, and the scores other judges gave were all clustered together anyways, with none really deviating far from the final average. So like it or not, US, Boyang got fourth, and the CHN judge scores didn't even factor much. 

 

@Eclair: thank you for the head's up but I did go ahead and watch it. I was highly amused by the actions of the US judge they mentioned, and IMO, that judge deserves some scrutiny. If the ISU wants to inspect the US judge, TSL episode spilled all the tea. And much as the judge supports the sport of figure skating, the scores indicate that the judge supports the sport of figure skating for the US and for US's benefit only. More so than anything else.

 

The most informative part of that episode was the clip of Brian coaching jump exercises at the end. As a skater I found those pretty instructive. =) The emphasis on jumping out, how to keep edges for the lutz. I'm going to try them next practice. =)

 

The technical aspect of the axels was interesting for me, but I find all those speculations about Nathan really annoying. I could be wrong, but if Brian and Tracy got a letter from Boyang and Nathan at the same time, my guess is that they would take Boyang. It seems Brian and Tracy like taking on diamonds in the rough types - guys who haven't maxed out. I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I think Nathan is close to maxing out, very very close. He's almost hit a TES cap (he's just missing the 4A), and judges are already raining PCS and GOE candies on him. On the other hand, Boyang is far further down on PCS, still has a 4F to try out and his 4Loop isn't stable, doesn't get a lot of GOE candies either, and have at least made indications he wants to improve on PCS. Another interesting possibility is Shun Sato, who would be quite a comrade maybe to Gogolev

 

@LadyLou: you know, I think Vincent might have done the job with a little more emotion. But whether Nathan actually enjoys skating is something up in the air for me. He might, but I'm not sure if he's at a point where he can easily express it either. If we factor in that maybe he didn't really want to do the music, then, that would explain why the long felt flat. 

the Chinese judge did his job the dumbest way he could  I think, even if the US judge is investigated, she did the smart thing and didn't let her scores deviate too much from the rest, even though she accomplished the same thing as the Chinese judge by letting her scores get deleted to rise the average scores. 

 

Oh that last bit was interesting, I agree. I wonder, if it mean something that Brian doesn't have a US skater right now. Someone said,  he once said it's because he can't because he lacks the papers to do it. But then TSL said, those paper are a formality that coaches usually let their assistant take online and that's an excuse because Brian doesn't want to deal with the crap of the US fed. 

I too think, that if Boyang asked Brian, he would probably agree to coach him. But I'm also not so sure that the Chinese fed lets him. The most they ever did was to let foreign coaches coach their skaters part-time or as 'specialist camps'. Zijun once was trained by Mishin full time and that didn't went well with her fed I think. And I don't think Brian would agree to only train Boyang as a 'secondary' coach or with the Chinese fed having too much of a say. Another issue it, that I could see Brian not wanting to take on Boyang/Nathan/Vincent as long as Yuzuru is still competing, because he doesn't want him to see them doing 4lutzes everyday and start trying those again...

Since there is speculation that Javi will stay in Brian's coaching team after retirement, I think it would be awesome if Boyang trained there too, especially they both kind of are more the performer and not grand artist type. Apart from not speaking English very well, Boyang is used to his current coach since he was little, so that would be a huge change for him. 

 

Boyang was asked to commentat his SP and FS and it was very descriptive, like in 'this is the 4lutz' 'this is the 4sal, the landing was good, it got x GOE', this is the camel spin, the levels are needed for that and that.' It kind of showed what his priorities in thought process and training are and there was no explanation of the story or the feeling of the programs.

 

No matter what, my personal opinion is, that if Boyang doesn't change coaches, he will loose out on PCS and GOE's big compared to Nathan, Vincent and Shoma. Especially if one of those would go to Brian instead. Gold in 2022 I would deem impossible, except there is a splatfest. A medal would be hard but not impossible. On the other hand, Boyang is really used to his current coach, so who knows how a new one would affect him.. But knowing Brian's team, I'd expect it to be a friendly place and Boyang is so likable that I guess this will not be huge a problem..

 

Of course the thought behind Brian coaching Boyang is that he improves SS, TR, packaging and keeps his Tech level. Brian couldn't do that with Nam though, so who knows how much he really could do with Boyang. On the other hand, I love what Brian did with Elisabet. She may not be very consistent right now, but her skating clearly showed the difference in school between Brian and Eteri. 

[xeyra]

A more visual way to see the history of Max GOEs and exactly how amazing Yuzuru is:

 

 

 

[Altie]

For what span of years have these data been collected ? Because if it's for all the senior years, then youngsters are disadvantaged...

[cirelle]

3 hours ago, xeyra said:

A more visual way to see the history of Max GOEs and exactly how amazing Yuzuru is:

 

 

 

 

This i’s so cool, cause usually someone has one (1) specialty, like Gaby’s 3T3T or Satton’s Layback or Misha’s ChSq, and Yuzu’s 3A is that, but then he also loads of other +3’s. I just love how INFORMATIVE this is. 

 

Huh. Medvedeva has a lot of different +3’s, but not really one specialty? 

[EisElle]

I'd say 3Lo is Zhenya's specialty, but I don't see 3Lo there and I'm honestly surprised if she hasn't got any +3 on that, than it's a pity, she has a very fine 3Lo

tbh I'm still LOL about all those stsq lv3 Yuzuru got

kuyashii kuyashii, Seimei stsq4 was just not meant to be...

oh wait, I made a nice rhyme

 

Anyway, a few days ago I think I've seen floating somewhere on twitter the pic of a jpn newspaper comparing Yuzuru's and Shoma's FS. I'm not sure what I was reading, since I can't read Japanesebut I watched the pictures and the numbers and it looked like they measured the speed, the average speed and ice coverage and there were also drawings of the skating patterns. From what I could understand it looked like Shoma was slighly faster and covered something like 100m more, which tbh I might believe, since Yuzuru was still nursing an injured ankle and also he has more transitions, so of course they can account for a bit of slowing down (I know that in other events Yuzuru was much faster, but he wasn't skating on painkillers on still injured ankle)

I haven't seen any debate about that, so I was wondering if I misunderstood the article or if maybe the newspaper wasn't reliable... (as I can't read japanese, I have no idea what newspaper it was)

[Forcefield]

Don't know if this is the place to put it, but since this is a place for score discussions:

 

 

I know it's been talked about the Chinese judge getting some flack for his scores for Boyang, but even Japanese tv is talking about it and I'm so mad for Boyang because he doesn't deserve his scores getting scrutinized like that, and yet the USA judge and Nathan/Vincent's scores are not? Always, they go for the poor; the poor gets poorer while the rich gets richer. 

 

 

[OonsieHui]

44 minutes ago, LadyLou said:

Anyway, a few days ago I think I've seen floating somewhere on twitter the pic of a jpn newspaper comparing Yuzuru's and Shoma's FS. I'm not sure what I was reading, since I can't read Japanesebut I watched the pictures and the numbers and it looked like they measured the speed, the average speed and ice coverage and there were also drawings of the skating patterns. From what I could understand it looked like Shoma was slighly faster and covered something like 100m more, which tbh I might believe, since Yuzuru was still nursing an injured ankle and also he has more transitions, so of course they can account for a bit of slowing down (I know that in other events Yuzuru was much faster, but he wasn't skating on painkillers on still injured ankle)

I haven't seen any debate about that, so I was wondering if I misunderstood the article or if maybe the newspaper wasn't reliable... (as I can't read japanese, I have no idea what newspaper it was)

 

Tbh Yuzu was very clearly not as fast or as sharp or as forceful as his Seimei normally is..... It was still a good skate, and the only reason it is even something to note is because of how he NORMALLY does it - that unbelievable strength and speed is distinctly Yuzuru. Obviously now we know why, and its amazing that he even did what he did. 

[GreatLakesGal]

I just came across an article in Russian that's an interview with Rafael A. In it he talks about Nathan, who apparently doesn't listen to him, and also about Adam and Ashley.

 

https://rsport.ria.ru/winter2018_analytics/20180221/1133017291.html

 

Wasn't sure if I should post this here or somewhere else?  Apparently there's some juicy stuff in it; unfortunately, I can't read Russian.