General Skating Chat

[EisElle]

I'm not going to comment on the tech panel that could judge at Olys

Just more selective blindness to be expected, I guess. Oh well.

 

@fireovertheice

I look forward to see that project.

Though I can predict what *some people* will have to say about the data: that you have so much free time (*insert sneer here*), and of course you're biased evil fanyus so who cares for the actual data and even if the numbers are ok they're just cold math that doesn't account for the magic of true artistry and so on

Hopefully the majority of fs fans will appreciate the work and find it very useful.

[liv]

4 hours ago, Murieleirum said:

 

It must be such a motivational boost to train in the same rink as Yuzuru... I think whatever talent and commitment Gogolev had before starting the training with Orser, it might have doubled now. 

 

What an experience for him to keep forever and ever.... and he's often on the ice at the same time when you watch the clips that are posted from time to time... like the one by Gabi showing Yuzu's quad video bomb... and the side eye one from media day, lol!

[Neenah]

Am I the only concerned about a child doing quads.. This is making me really uncomfortable and quite worried that it would harm his joints and still developing body.

[Yoa]

4 hours ago, Murieleirum said:

 

It must be such a motivational boost to train in the same rink as Yuzuru... I think whatever talent and commitment Gogolev had before starting the training with Orser, it might have doubled now. 

I think it works both ways  Yuzu is probably like "I can't lose to the kid 10 years younger than me..."

 

[Sammie]

4 minutes ago, Neenah said:

Am I the only concerned about a child doing quads.. This is making me really uncomfortable and quite worried that it would harm his joints and still developing body.

It’s pretty scary. Is that why Nathan got hip surgery at such a young age?   

[meoima]

The thing with jumps in skating is their body changing.... how to cope up with new body and all as these skaters are all growing up.

I have to say, Yuzuru was kinda lucky that his body didn’t go into some drastic change in a short time like some skaters had to experience (look at Nam). 

So yes... it’s amazing they’re doing the quads now (look at 2 wonder babies at Eteri’s group who are jumping quads), but hopefully their coaches will help them keep it healthy with clean technique when they’re older, taller and bigger. 

[EisElle]

totally at the moment bringing this from COC ladies' because I'm going to state my opinion on backloading in general and wheter it should be punished in CO (composition).

 

4 hours ago, Xen said:

I'm rewatching the ladies free with the CBC commentaries of Kurt and David, and it's hilarious. Especially the "skaters of our generation" and the old men bits, and what with "You can go to the bathroom, grab some popcorn" because "nothing is happening, at least jumping wise, for the next 2 minutes." 

I know I'm probably going to sound moralistic

tbh, even if I know it's an harmless joke, and a funny one, I'm also a bit uncomfortable about the implications of those words because it's like admitting that people watch a program only for the jumps, so if they miss the part without jumps they're not really missing anything worthy or interesting. It's true jumps usually are highlighs, expecially for more casual viewers (and because they are the elements worth more scoring-wise) but following this reasoning I could go and grab popcorn as soon as in other programs all the jumps end, or go back reading this forum during step sequences. (Guilty. But I've done the same even during jumps if I felt bored, sorry. tbh in some programs everything outside of jumps is more exciting than jumps)

And then there is ice dance, should I go and grab popcorn unless they're doing lifts and twizzles?

 

About Alina in particular, since the comment was about her program: she isn't even my favourite female skater, I'd rather watch Mai for my personal enjoyment, but it's not like Alina is just doing 10000 crossover in the first half! And the commentators recognize that themselves. I find more balanced Tracy's commentary (she says she doesn't like the backloading, but the way she says that is...way better).

It's true, Alina's FS gets more exciting in the second half. But the music itself has a crescendo, so I stand by my idea that it would be wrong to just call the program unbalanced and penalize Alina in CO, as long as Alina and her choreo make it work (now, if she actually succeeds in that might be debatable, but the program shouldn't be criticized tout court).

Sure, one could say the "purpose" of that composition is to garner as many points as possible, but they didn't pick a random music, they chose a piece that could suit that purpose and choreographed it accordingly.

 

Also, for CO there is no "even distribution of all elements" requirement. Ice coverage and use of space are mentioned, no whatsoever reference to time distribution, only matching to the musical phrasing is to be evalued.

As long as that specific rule doesn't change, stating clearly that backloaded programs are to be considered poor composition, it still one's personal opinion if backloading deserves lower scores. Unlike some other very specific criteria for, say, SS and TR, that are so often conveniently overlooked. I find that more outrageous than not giving a program lower CO for something that isn't even mentioned in the rulebook (even distribution of jumps).

Ironically, per the current rule Alina's program could instead deserve higher CO marks for originality, because there are only a few fully backloaded programs across all disciplines, senior and junior.

 

IMO the backloading "problem" will solve itself with technical progress, when ladies will start making harder jumps and combos (see Trusova's 4S. She puts as the start of her free, though I'd bet she could do a fully backloaded program with only triples and doubles).

I think that men might go for the full backloading route soon, too (easier for the SP at the moment) until the next technical outbreak. It's becaming  more and more important to have clean skates, as it's already almost mandatory for ladies, and there is a ceiling to the BV you can have with new quads. To have some kind of BV cushion skaters will backload more and more (and it's already happening, since everyone's finally realized that Yuzuru wasn't backloading all his combos and axels just 'cause he could, but to rack up points too).

 

 

Now, if we want to talk about "balance": it's a FACT that, for example, in SEIMEI the second half jumps are tightly packed, unlike in H&L. Should we also give Yuzu lower CO because of that? The program IS less "balanced" than H&L, time-wise. But that layout makes sense with SEIMEI music, so why should I consider more "unbalanced" that program, as long as everything fits the music?

For me, jump after jump there is a gripping crescendo that explodes in the choreo sequence, and the choreo sequence is awesome as it is (and as I fan I can actually enjoy it more, without still being on the edge for another jumping pass).

And all of this goes back to how Yuzuru views jumps: part of the choreo and performance. If jumps are that well blended within the choreo and with the music, on which basis one can deem the program not well balanced?

[Yatagarasu]

12 minutes ago, Sammie said:

It’s pretty scary. Is that why Nathan got hip surgery at such a young age?   

 

Technically speaking, nobody really knows what the longterm impact of quads is going to be, not just when it comes to kids like Gogolev but when it comes to adults like Shoma/Nathan and even Yuzuru. 

 

Patrick spoke of this a while back, during last season, and it is a genuine concern. I think with adults, as I said back then, the ISU cannot have all the responsibility. Some of that must fall on the coaches and athletes themselves, so basically know your athlete/your own body and adjust so that their health is a priority; don't overtrain and listen to the limits of your system. Of course, correct, clean technique is always going to result in less chances for injury. When we talk about all those wonky landings, they're definitely going to have an impact on ankles/knees/hips even more so than a regular quad does, and it'll up the dangers.

Of course, the kids bit is separate and well, everything Meoima said but apart from that, yes, I am sure it is going to have some effect. I don't really think it's possible to get away from that but we see this in other sports too or things like dance. Overall we're going to have to wait for quite a few years to see what happens.

[Altie]

I must admit that I really liked Alina's program. The crescendo effect totally worked with me, and the end of the program felt like fireworks, I liked it.

And her program is still packed with transitions and interesting bits...

Of course, I don't watch it on replay like I watch Wakaba's program on replay since yesterday, but still - I must admit that programs that are (almost) only jumps and crossovers are much more boring for me.

[fireovertheice]

59 minutes ago, LadyLou said:

@fireovertheice

I look forward to see that project.

Though I can predict what *some people* will have to say about the data: that you have so much free time (*insert sneer here*), and of course you're biased evil fanyus so who cares for the actual data and even if the numbers are ok they're just cold math that doesn't account for the magic of true artistry and so on

Hopefully the majority of fs fans will appreciate the work and find it very useful.

 

Yes, I know you are right: thank you for your concern.

For the possible comment about my free time, I do not care: everyone invest her/his free time as she/he is pleased

As I said, I did it just to understand some things and I want to share the data just because I hope that they will be useful to some others. If not, it has been interesting for me anyway.

 

For the bias as "Fanyu", I would like that they could show me where and how, because I am just counting things that are visible and countable to all, not discussing interpretation and so forth, where opinions can be also very different.

 

About the opposite criticism, i.e. math and number of transitions or crossovers are not important because they do not account the artistry and whatever, I would say that is true. But those numbers I am putting together are relevant for the marks of SS, and TR and in part the Composition, while artistry has to be scored in IN and PE.

And because to score SS, TR and CO you have to take in account aspects that in part are countable in time, in space and quantity/quality, why not do it ? In some way also the judges have to have an idea of the variety, quantity and quality of the transitions (TR), the amount of use of one foot skating and multidirectional skating, or the change of speed (SS),  of the pattern and ice coverage, or use of space (CO). How they do it?

 

[getsurenka]

Slightly off topic here, but just out of curiosity, at what age or what point of their skating career do skaters normally transition into new coaching team? Like for example, Yuzuru had switched to TCC two seasons after he made his senior debut (age 16), while Cha Jun-Hwan started training at TCC before he made his junior debut (age 14). Stephen Gogolev seems to have been with TCC for quite a while now? and he is only 12 currently. So is there a trend or similarities among the timeline of skaters (esp the ones who trained foreignly) when they made the decision to switch from their original coaching team to a foreign one? I am really curious in how influence of coaching can impact the career of a skater

 

Also, do you think it make a significant impact on their development as competitive skaters, such as do they have better results when they made the switch earlier in their career than later in their career? On a personal note, do you think Yuzuru would benefitted from an earlier switch, like would he have "better" techniques as a skater now if he did that? I have seen in multiple places Yuzuru really benefitted from the switch to TCC and had really improved as a skater, which make his successful Olympic season possible. 

 

As a new fan, I am still learning the ropes in the figure skating world, and there are quite a lot I have yet to learn. I apologize in advance if these questions are too troublesome or not suitable for this thread. I will be really grateful if someone here who is more knowledgeable to explain the whole process a little more if it is of no convenience. 

[meoima]

4 minutes ago, getsurenka said:

Slightly off topic here, but just out of curiosity, at what age or what point of their skating career do skaters normally transition into new coaching team? Like for example, Yuzuru had switched to TCC two seasons after he made his senior debut (age 16), while Cha Jun-Hwan started training at TCC before he made his junior debut (age 14). Stephen Gogolev seems to have been with TCC for quite a while now? and he is only 12 currently. So is there a trend or similarities among the timeline of skaters (esp the ones who trained foreignly) when they made the decision to switch from their original coaching team to a foreign one? I am really curious in how influence of coaching can impact the career of a skater

 

Also, do you think it make a significant impact on their development as competitive skaters, such as do they have better results when they made the switch earlier in their career than later in their career? On a personal note, do you think Yuzuru would benefitted from an earlier switch, like would he have "better" techniques as a skater now if he did that? I have seen in multiple places Yuzuru really benefitted from the switch to TCC and had really improved as a skater, which make his successful Olympic season possible. 

 

As a new fan, I am still learning the ropes in the figure skating world, and there are quite a lot I have yet to learn. I apologize in advance if these questions are too troublesome or not suitable for this thread. I will be really grateful if someone here who is more knowledgeable to explain the whole process a little more if it is of no convenience. 

No one knows really... what is the best for each skater? Skaters are human and each human js different. They have different bodies, mentality and all.

i would say it’s best to change coach when you have reached everything you can reach at the current place. But it’s my opinion and I am not the skater themselves.

With musicians, it’s the same I think. Hilary Hahn changed to her second professor when her first teacher thought she taught her everything she could already. 

[meoima]

23 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

Technically speaking, nobody really knows what the longterm impact of quads is going to be, not just when it comes to kids like Gogolev but when it comes to adults like Shoma/Nathan and even Yuzuru. 

 

Patrick spoke of this a while back, during last season, and it is a genuine concern. I think with adults, as I said back then, the ISU cannot have all the responsibility. Some of that must fall on the coaches and athletes themselves, so basically know your athlete/your own body and adjust so that their health is a priority; don't overtrain and listen to the limits of your system. Of course, correct, clean technique is always going to result in less chances for injury. When we talk about all those wonky landings, they're definitely going to have an impact on ankles/knees/hips even more so than a regular quad does, and it'll up the dangers.

Of course, the kids bit is separate and well, everything Meoima said but apart from that, yes, I am sure it is going to have some effect. I don't really think it's possible to get away from that but we see this in other sports too or things like dance. Overall we're going to have to wait for quite a few years to see what happens.

Yeah, all kind of jumps, especially quads... will have some effects for the long run when the skaters retire. Even Kwan only did triples and she still had pain now and then years after her competitive days. 

Skating and especially jumping has a lot to do with controlling your bodies. If your body keeps changing it’s a challenge to get used to it. So hopefully with better technology and approach, coaches and specialists will help skaters to improve their chance after puberty.

[Yatagarasu]

23 minutes ago, meoima said:

Yeah, all kind of jumps, especially quads... will have some effects for the long run when the skaters retire. Even Kwan only did triples and she still had pain now and then years after her competitive days. 

Skating and especially jumping has a lot to do with controlling your bodies. If your body keeps changing it’s a challenge to get used to it. So hopefully with better technology and approach, coaches and specialists will help skaters to improve their chance after puberty.

 

It's intense physical activity, it's bound to have an effect. A couple I know are retired ballroom dancers; they both have extensive issues with their legs. At this point, I think all parents are aware that sport at these, and similar, levels will have a kind of a drawback in some ways and of course, kids themselves can make choices, especially as they start growing up and the level of their chosen sport, and demands, start rising. 

 

I think the thing you mention, advances in various ways, is very important. From equipment, and boots and blades have progressed significantly, to methods of training and health screening, should all help alleviate the problem. Plushenko who is often mentioned as someone who is 'broken' is actually an extreme case; along with Mishin he was at the forefront of quads and we've come a long way from then, partially thanks to them so I don't think we'll have a repeat of that, if all we mentioned is followed. If it's not ...

[GreatLakesGal]

2 hours ago, Neenah said:

Am I the only concerned about a child doing quads.. This is making me really uncomfortable and quite worried that it would harm his joints and still developing body.

 

No, you most certainly are not alone in being concerned. I've wondered about that quad jumping child too and also about his parents. And it's not just the physical body that can be damaged but the child's long-term psychological health as well.