General Yuzuru Chat

[OonsieHui]

10 minutes ago, river said:

Okay, here's the rule they're citing from the tech panel handbook:

 

"Spin in one position with change of foot: less than 2 revolutions in a basic position on one foot

 

If a spin in one position with change of foot is executed with a basic position with not less than 2 revolutions on one foot only and no basic position with not less than 2 revolutions on the other foot, it will receive: In Short Program “no value“. In Free Skating it will be marked with sign “V”."

 

So the claim is that Yuzu didn't hit 2 consecutive revolutions in a basic position after the change of foot. I was a little harsher than Jackie when I rewatched the spin frame-by-frame (not sure his thigh is quite parallel to the ice when Jackie started counting) and I still got 2 revolutions before he changed positions and broke the basic position for a second. It's a ridiculous call. Especially given what passes for a "sit position" for many other male skaters - sometimes if you watch closely they never get parallel.

 

Options are: blatant favouritism with a conscious choice to judge him unfairly and wrongly, either thinking the public wouldn't realise, or not caring if they did. OR someone made a mistake and screwed up but since in figure skating there's no such thing as retrospectively changing the score on review or anything, they then tried to find some bullshit reason to cover their ass. 

 

So at best they are incompetent, at worse they are corrupt. Very likely they are both. 

[Henni147]

Sorry for the long post, but I didn't know how to shorten it 

I'd like to share some thoughts about a potential SP for the future (if Yuzu intends to do another one after LMEY for the Olympics or whatever occasion).

 

In general

When Yuzu said that he and Jeff struggled to find a good piano music, I had to think of an advice from my former dance teacher:

"When you are searching for a new music piece, think about your biggest strength as a technician, as a performer and as a person. Pick a music piece that highlights those three strengths as good as possible."

 

I'm really curious, where Yuzu sees his biggest strengths himself. He has so many. I tried to think about it myself and I'm curious, if you agree:

1. Technically I see Yuzu as an allrounder, but his biggest strength is probably his high quality of execution. For me this is what sets him apart from the rest in the first place. Thankfully, an SP is not that packed with jumps, so he has the time and stamina to show his full range of technical skills there.
2. As a performer Yuzu has a very special aura that only he has. He doesn't need to draw in the crowd. The crowd comes to him and this gives him a lot of freedom. He is able to create a world or setting around him that makes you forget about competition.
3. As a person, what fascinates me the most is him having so many different faces. Especially the way he transcends any gender stereotypes with dignity is something that probably only he can do. Masculine or feminine or gender neutral. It never feels grotesque, but completely natural and authentic.

In Romeo and Juliet Yuzu has already tried to portray two different characters, but I think, he did not quite have the maturity at that time to switch between the roles of Romeo and Juliet alone through his expression and body language. Today he definitely has the maturity to do that and it would be super exciting to see imo.

 

In particular

For the SP I could picture a program with a similar concept. Imagine a tango that is meant to be danced with two, but skated alone by Yuzu portraying both - an elegant, passionate man and a graceful, sensual woman - and switching between the two roles back and forth. It would be very challenging, but also something absolutely unique and thrilling that has never been done in that form yet, as far as I remember. It would be a whole other level of performance skill.

 

As a costume I could picture something like this:

Spoiler

 

 

As a music piece I could imagine Francesca Gagnon's "Querer". It's not too fast, but has a rhythm that I think is very suitable for jumping, spinning and also for long gliding on one foot with nice deep edges (including Yuzu's praised cool-down moves that we hardly get to see in competition).

 

Here is an excerpt from the lyrics that I found especially fitting for him:

Querer Entre cielo y mar Sin fuerza de gravedad Sentimiento de libertad   Querer Sin jamas esperar Dar solo para dar Siempre y todavia mas   Amar Para poder luchar Contra el viento y volar Descubrir la belleza del mar

Want Between sky and sea Without gravity Feeling of freedom   Want Without ever expect Give only to give Always and still more   Love To fight Against the wind and fly Discover the beauty of the sea

 

[Geo1]

14 hours ago, Umebachi said:

They battled each other but they also respected and cared deeply about each other's well being (except that they were willing to go kill each other - go figure - men!).   

 

Hey, it’s a guy thing…

[Fay]

37 minutes ago, Geo1 said:

 

Hey, it’s a guy thing…

That’s what makes me sometimes sorry I wasn’t born a man. Lol 😂 

[TallyT]

1 hour ago, OonsieHui said:

 

Options are: blatant favouritism with a conscious choice to judge him unfairly and wrongly, either thinking the public wouldn't realise, or not caring if they did. OR someone made a mistake and screwed up but since in figure skating there's no such thing as retrospectively changing the score on review or anything, they then tried to find some bullshit reason to cover their ass. 

 

So at best they are incompetent, at worse they are corrupt. Very likely they are both. 

 

I'd say both - without any blame to him, Shoma was in my opinion the one they wanted to win, and he was still to come (so they didn't know he would fall) so they were hyper-eager to find errors in Yuzu's skate. Not saying they deliberately faked the error, but I do think they saw what they wanted to see.

 

But the rest of LMEY, and the brilliance of H&E (for all Yuzu himself was unimpressed with his own step sequence ) meant they had to give him the marks. And if you add that back in (he won't let it happen again) and GOEs to compensate, and then look at what he can get when both programs are burnished (I thought H&E was transendant, but never underestimate Mr Hanyu's drive to improve)...

[yuzupon]

6 hours ago, monchan said:

That doesn't apply for change of foot spin:

From your file (page 7)

"The change of foot in any spin must be preceded and followed by a spin position with at least three (3) revolutions. If this requirement is not fulfilled the spin will be “No Value” in Short Program and marked with a “V” in Free Skating"

If JSF had said 3 revs that's excusable (still too much of a reach as he got at least 2.5 revs), but they said "2 revs", so that's a faulty feedback.

 

I've never given a shit about spin before, but now they even come for his spins to rob him it's just THAT pathetic.

 

5 hours ago, river said:

Okay, here's the rule they're citing from the tech panel handbook:

 

"Spin in one position with change of foot: less than 2 revolutions in a basic position on one foot

 

If a spin in one position with change of foot is executed with a basic position with not less than 2 revolutions on one foot only and no basic position with not less than 2 revolutions on the other foot, it will receive: In Short Program “no value“. In Free Skating it will be marked with sign “V”."

 

So the claim is that Yuzu didn't hit 2 consecutive revolutions in a basic position after the change of foot. I was a little harsher than Jackie when I rewatched the spin frame-by-frame (not sure his thigh is quite parallel to the ice when Jackie started counting) and I still got 2 revolutions before he changed positions and broke the basic position for a second. It's a ridiculous call. Especially given what passes for a "sit position" for many other male skaters - sometimes if you watch closely they never get parallel.

Be ready, it's gonna be long. I just can't leave this alone. 

 

So, by this tech book, we have confirmed that the basic spin positions are these 3: camel, sit, upright (altho layback and biellmann are counted as camel position, even if in protocols they will be called layback - point of confusion #1)  ref: p.7

 

What they invalidated was Zuzu's Change Sit Spin (CSSp). 

 

Originally, we thought they were using this rule:

________

"The change of foot in any spin must be preceded and followed by a spin position with at least three (3) revolutions. If this requirement is not fulfilled the spin will be “No Value” in Short Program and marked with a “V” in Free Skating."

ref: p.7

________

 

Which doesn't make sense, cz while Zuzu varied his spin (rules on variation are on p.12 under Clarifications), the position is just all SIT position. Hence, no matter the variation, all revolutions are sit spin revolutions, he made more than 3 before and after change of foot. He did 2 variations of SIT position before and after change of foot, each variation at least 2.5 revolutions, hence BEFORE change of foot: at least 5 revolutions, AFTER change of foot: at least 5 revolutions. 5 > 3, if my maths has not completely failed me yet. This whole thing is point of confusion #2

 

This understanding is also backed up by this rule:

_____

on Specific elements of Short Program, under Men: spin in one position with change of foot:

"Senior & Junior: The spin must have at least 3 revolutions before and after the change of foot."

_____

Nowhere in there the rule says anything about VARIATION.

 

Then, 'someone in charge' release statement that it was this rule they based the decision on:

______

on Clarifications, under Spin in one position with change of foot: less than 2 revolutions in a basic position on one foot:

"If a spin in one position with change of foot is executed with a basic position with not less than 2 revolutions on one foot only and no basic position with not less than 2 revolutions on the other foot, it will receive: In Short Program “no value“. In Free Skating it will be marked with sign “V”."

ref. p. 15

______

Setting aside that this 'clarification' doesn't clarify sh*t - who English this?? point of confusion #3 - again, it doesn't mention anything about 'variation'. And Zuzu made more than 'not less than 2 revolutions' on SIT position.

 

So, no. This justification does NOT justify sh*t.

 

[makebelieveup]

Why am I even following a sport system that chooses to reward incorrect technique and low quality skating but punish the opposite? Like why? If they continue to injustifiably ding him on his nonexisiting underrotations (aci19), invalidate his spins, and lowball his GOEs and PCs and give candies to other skaters, no amount of effort on his part would be enough. This is bs. Is there anything we could even do? *feeling helpless

[Geo1]

Has this already been posted? A Russian perspective on JSF's judging of Yuzuru Hanyu.

 

Hanyu returned triumphantly, but was tried by the Japanese judges. Why are they interfering with their own in Japan?

 

https://www.sport-express.ru/figure-skating/reviews/figurnoe-katanie-chempionat-yaponii-hanyu-i-kihira-vzyali-zoloto-sudeystvo-v-yaponii-1742583/

 

[SitTwizzle]

1 hour ago, Henni147 said:

Sorry for the long post, but I didn't know how to shorten it 

I'd like to share some thoughts about a potential SP for the future (if Yuzu intends to do another one after LMEY for the Olympics or whatever occasion).

 

In general

When Yuzu said that he and Jeff struggled to find a good piano music, I had to think of an advice from my former dance teacher:

"When you are searching for a new music piece, think about your biggest strength as a technician, as a performer and as a person. Pick a music piece that highlights those three strengths as good as possible."

 

I'm really curious, where Yuzu sees his biggest strengths himself. He has so many. I tried to think about it myself and I'm curious, if you agree:

1. Technically I see Yuzu as an allrounder, but his biggest strength is probably his high quality of execution. For me this is what sets him apart from the rest in the first place. Thankfully, an SP is not that packed with jumps, so he has the time and stamina to show his full range of technical skills there.
2. As a performer Yuzu has a very special aura that only he has. He doesn't need to draw in the crowd. The crowd comes to him and this gives him a lot of freedom. He is able to create a world or setting around him that makes you forget about competition.
3. As a person, what fascinates me the most is him having so many different faces. Especially the way he transcends any gender stereotypes with dignity is something that probably only he can do. Masculine or feminine or gender neutral. It never feels grotesque, but completely natural and authentic.

In Romeo and Juliet Yuzu has already tried to portray two different characters, but I think, he did not quite have the maturity at that time to switch between the roles of Romeo and Juliet alone through his expression and body language. Today he definitely has the maturity to do that and it would be super exciting to see imo.

 

In particular

For the SP I could picture a program with a similar concept. Imagine a tango that is meant to be danced with two, but skated alone by Yuzu portraying both - an elegant, passionate man and a graceful, sensual woman - and switching between the two roles back and forth. It would be very challenging, but also something absolutely unique and thrilling that has never been done in that form yet, as far as I remember. It would be a whole other level of performance skill.

 

As a costume I could picture something like this:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

As a music piece I could imagine Francesca Gagnon's "Querer". It's not too fast, but has a rhythm that I think is very suitable for jumping, spinning and also for long gliding on one foot with nice deep edges (including Yuzu's praised cool-down moves that we hardly get to see in competition).

 

Here is an excerpt from the lyrics that I found especially fitting for him:

Querer Entre cielo y mar Sin fuerza de gravedad Sentimiento de libertad   Querer Sin jamas esperar Dar solo para dar Siempre y todavia mas   Amar Para poder luchar Contra el viento y volar Descubrir la belleza del mar

Want Between sky and sea Without gravity Feeling of freedom   Want Without ever expect Give only to give Always and still more   Love To fight Against the wind and fly Discover the beauty of the sea

 

First, a little bit on the translation of the lyrics : "querer" means "to love" as well as "to want"; the usual way of telling "I love you" is "te quiero" for instance; and "para poder luchar" means "to be able to fight".  I'm sure he would be superb in a tango. Maybe not yet if he is to be really, seriously sensual?

And I have seen him (very) manly or rather gender-neutral, but never feminine. Maybe this is a personal, subjective notion? (I confess I found R&J2 a miss, both the program, and the costume, nice but for me it meant neither Romeo nor Juliet.)

[memae]

20 minutes ago, makebelieveup said:

Why am I even following a sport system that chooses to reward incorrect technique and low quality skating but punish the opposite? Like why? If they continue to injustifiably ding him on his nonexisiting underrotations, invalidate his spins, and lowball his GOEs and PCs and give candies to other skaters, no amount of effort on his part would be enough. This is bs. Is there anything we could even do? *feeling helpless

 

Because no other sport has Yuzu

[makebelieveup]

20 minutes ago, Geo1 said:

Has this already been posted? A Russian perspective on JSF's judging of Yuzuru Hanyu.

 

Hanyu returned triumphantly, but was tried by the Japanese judges. Why are they interfering with their own in Japan?

 

https://www.sport-express.ru/figure-skating/reviews/figurnoe-katanie-chempionat-yaponii-hanyu-i-kihira-vzyali-zoloto-sudeystvo-v-yaponii-1742583/

 

Hanyu is experimenting with looks, but has given up on difficult jumps

Hanyu has been acting somewhat arrogant towards viewers and rivals over the past few years, returning programs from past years from year to year. The apotheosis was the decision to return the short under Chopin that season for ... the fourth time. Therefore, Yuzuru could not go to the Japanese championship with the old programs, and even a pandemic would not be an excuse.

 

 

LOL what???

 

 

eta:

 

and no, jsf didnt score their skaters harshly to prepare them for international comps. did the op even look at shoma's protocol? 

[yuzupon]

While we are at it, don't forget that they V-ed Yuzuru's last spin in FS as well.

 

It was Change Combination Spin (CCoSp)

 

From the same darn tech handbook p.15

______

on Clarifications under "V" sign:

 

“V” sign can be awarded only in 4 situations:

1) In Flying spin only: for stepping over and no clear visible jump;

2) In Spin Combination: for only two basic positions:

3) In any change foot spin with less than 3 revolutions on one foot (Free Skating only).

4) In Spin in one position with change of foot: less than 2 revolutions in a basic position on one foot (Free Skating only).

If in a CCoSp there are only 2 basic positions and less than 3 revolutions on one foot or in Spin in one position with change of foot there are less than 2 revolutions in a basic position and less than 3 revolutions on one foot “V” sign will be awarded. These cases of multiple errors will be reflected by the judges in GOE. In case the skater has chosen to execute only 2 positions, this is not regarded as an error in GOE by the judges.

_______

 

Zuzu did 3 positions: camel (6 revolutions), --then change foot-- sit (2.5 revolutions), upright (2 revolutions)

So, his combination is 3 basic positions, which is more than 'only two basic positions', and

for change of foot he did more than 3 revolutions BEFORE (6 revolutions in camel position) and AFTER (2.5 in sit position, 2 in upright position, 2.5+2=4.5 revolutions) change of foot.

 

They specifically said that V will be given for CCoSp if 'there are only 2 basic positions and less than 3 revolutions on one foot'. So, what gives? Which part did Zuzu violated? Also, the conjunction 'and' in there means that both have to be violated to earn the freaking V.

 

I just can't.

 

This is all before commenting on level, cz my steaming brain can't process that right now.

[Fay]

14 minutes ago, Geo1 said:

Has this already been posted? A Russian perspective on JSF's judging of Yuzuru Hanyu.

 

Hanyu returned triumphantly, but was tried by the Japanese judges. Why are they interfering with their own in Japan?

 

https://www.sport-express.ru/figure-skating/reviews/figurnoe-katanie-chempionat-yaponii-hanyu-i-kihira-vzyali-zoloto-sudeystvo-v-yaponii-1742583/

 

For god’s sake, not that writer! He’s crap! 

[yuzuangel]

44 minutes ago, yuzupon said:

on Clarifications, under Spin in one position with change of foot: less than 2 revolutions in a basic position on one foot:

"If a spin in one position with change of foot is executed with a basic position with not less than 2 revolutions on one foot only and no basic position with not less than 2 revolutions on the other foot, it will receive: In Short Program “no value“. In Free Skating it will be marked with sign “V”."

ref. p. 15

______

Setting aside that this 'clarification' doesn't clarify sh*t - who English this?? point of confusion #3 - again, it doesn't mention anything about 'variation'. And Zuzu made more than 'not less than 2 revolutions' on SIT position.

I don't get this rule at all....so if you spin more than 2 revs your spin will be invalidated? Hence, his spin was invalidated bc he spun more than 2 revs? Or whaatt?? Actually can someone clarify that that's what it's saying?

So to get points you have to either

1. spin in a basic position with less than 2 revolutions OR
2. do NOT spin in a non-basic position for 2 or more revolutions

otherwise your spin has no value?

[Veveco]

I didn't want to bring it up and ruin the mood but since the discussion is back to judging shenanigans... The person who took the decision to invalidate the spin was Mami Maeda who is already infamous for underscoring Yuzu at GFP 19. If she can't put her personal bias aside, she should be bared from judging, period. But hey, we know how it goes.