General Yuzuru Chat

[Toni]

14 minutes ago, kaerb said:

Yes...I know that? But logistically, this is a huge ask, with an unclear goal and there are many factors to consider - a 'list' of offenders could easily get out of hand, I don't know who has the time, energy and Japanese skills to seek out/translate/report on the antis constantly but I certainly don't. When this issue was happening, I was being messaged a lot of links to hateful tweets and my twitter followers and friends helped to report them and I even considered if there was something more systematic we could do. but Twitter's reporting system is dubious at times and they will not necessarily take any action, especially for vague nasty comments with no tangible threat or targeted harassment (many of them don't even mention Yuzu by name but it's clear they're talking about him...Twitter won't do anything about that). Frankly I had to step away because my own mental health was making it difficult to deal with. It's definitely not a job for one person. 

 

You seem passionate about the topic, perhaps you can spearhead some initiatives about solutions? I'm sure there are many people interested and willing to help. 

 

I'm not necessarily the best person to spearhead this...yet.  I'm currently in a big full-time job AND I'm writing two new screenplays AND writing a children's book about Yuzu - all simultaneously. I'll seriously consider it after I finish the children's book. I mainly think that most of us should just do what we can instead of just shaking our heads and looking the other way.

[icecreamy]

6 minutes ago, Toni said:

 

Well... I suppose you have a point about immature fans becoming zealots (just different haters) instead of protectors of the innocent... I really hate that there's some truth in that... most haters don't even realize they're haters... I just pray that those of us who know the difference can take action and not remain silent.

It becomes my daily routine, to go on twitter and report malicious and untruthful posts about Yuzu. There is no need for any education here because many of those posts are simply pure evil speculation that are told as fact, there is no missing information or understanding here, only lies and spreading lies. I never leave a single comment because they don't deserve any words. 

 

I watched a snapshot of the imitator on weekend, IMO he is so so so low. I never watched the full video because it doesn't deserve my time. I understand he is trying to make a living and many people go extra (with much cost) to get relatively famous before they can really do their stuff; however this is way below my standard of decency.  The fact that Yuzu is a celebrity doesn't entitle anyone the right to act like this, whether Yuzu tolerates/enjoys it is one thing, whether someone should do it is another.  You walk on Strip of Las Vegas and see imitators of Optimus, friendly wave and picture you pay tip; if that Optimus is laughing hysterically and dances crazy, my kiddo would go right up and tell him to stop doing this because you are a fake.

[Toni]

43 minutes ago, icecreamy said:

It becomes my daily routine, to go on twitter and report malicious and untruthful posts about Yuzu. There is no need for any education here because many of those posts are simply pure evil speculation that are told as fact, there is no missing information or understanding here, only lies and spreading lies. I never leave a single comment because they don't deserve any words. 

 

Good for you!!!    We need more like you.

 

49 minutes ago, wingman said:

@Toni Yes, #MeToo!

I'm not sure if we should do it under his name though... We can certainly mention in our individual stories that we were inspired by him. But there are plenty of haters of #MeToo and I don't want to randomly associate Yuzu with a movement unless if it's his own explicit initiation. 

 

52 minutes ago, wingman said:

Add to this: I agree with @Neenah: never fight hate with hate. 

Also to be clear:by "fighting back" I mean to share our stories: of love, hope, hurt, perseverance, desparation, understanding, sympathy, empathy. 

 

If we have journalists here: one effective way to shut the haters is to do a cover story about them. Often times they are hateful because the world hasn't been so kind to them. Once their story has been heard and sympathized with, they can turn into the decent human that is present at our very core. This is also why trolls are so hard to fight: they seem to be some invisible mob, so we can't exercise our sympathy. Let's attach some faces to them. You can do it mentally (ie: relate the trolls to a particular troll you know in person). 

 

Sorry, this is getting OT... 

 

I suppose if we take a pure love approach, Yuzu could only be proud of having this done in his honor. 

[sweetwater]

@Toni

Spoiler

What made you so sure that they censored it to silence him? I watched the broadcast yesterday checking the transcript of the live broadcasted version of day 3 because I'm now translating some of the commentaries of it. Many comments were edited out from the recorded version but they didn't cut anything from the conversation between him and Plu, where he asked Plu how did he cope with bashing from all over the world. They shortened so-called Mura bullying, some introductions made by PA announcer, and edited out where he was talking about what he was dreaming of when he touched the ice after he finished SEIMEI in PyeonChang, where he asked the audience when did they become his fans, and where he said that he would be jumping next time he would see them. From the last speech, they edited out where he thanked TV Asahi, where Nobu said he wanted to skate too, and the part you mentioned.

 

I don't know how you see this but I thought some the things missing in the yesterday's version were what antis and tabloids would like to use as their material. Actually, a tabloid has already published a few articles on his closing speech and Mura bullying, which I don't think are materials for tabloids at all. 

Although I respect the decision to say that on that occasion thinking that he needed to make people aware of the problem, I think all the words exchanged in the show were directed to those who he trusts and those who support him, not exactly a statement towards society. 

 

One more thing, I want you to know that even if we are not always talking about the problem here, many of us have been dealing with it to some degrees. Some made videos to prove his innocence, some reported malicious posts on SNS to the police. Some had tiresome discussions with antis who spread lies, and some spread positive feelings toward him to mute such antis.

The reason why we avoid the topic regarding antis is that it would attract their attention to this place, where we can talk about him without dealing with them. Don't think that we don't care.

 

[KatjaThera]

Honestly, I think truly fighting the antis is a waste of time and energy. Every popular person will also have haters. It's a fact of life. Some of these haters will be vicious, either because they get kicks out of being mean, either because they really enjoy the reactions they get. I don't think anything we can do will ever eliminate haters and I think it'd be better if Yuzu learned to ignore them. Not saying it's easy, but Brian has been saying it for years, as someone who has been a victim of even more vicious bullying by the media, "ignore it." I'm not sure starting crusades is going to really help. But if people have the time and energy to spend on this, great for them, I guess. (I'm sorry, I personally have an aversion to this sort of call to arms. But that's just me.)

 

I do think spreading true facts to counteract the lies could help, especially with sources. But even that will only work so far, because you can't convince people who don't want to be convinced. Coordinating with Japanese fans is hard, though, because of the language barrier.

 

I also wish if you really want to fight the media, then focus on those who actually do attack Yuzu and not on a station he actually very publicly thanked and praised. If you're truly concerned, maybe ask why they chose to edit that out rather than automatically assume they were censoring him.

 

I'm not sure what Yuzu wants is for people to start anti-bullying campaigns like that... I think he'd be more interested in raising awareness and making sure everyone thinks twice when they interact with others and try to imagine what the other person is feeling. Bullying the bullies isn't the answer and that can happen when people start movements like this. But if you're serious about it, then I suggest making a new thread about it and discussing it there.

 

And I kind of wish people would get over the cosplayer. I admit I cringed, too, and the whole monomane thing is a part of Japanese humor that I will never get. But it is part of their culture whether we like it or not. I can imagine somewhat why the video of him cosplaying in a bar would be the last drop for Japanese fans. I can also imagine Alina's very open reaction also made some realize how it all looks to foreigners. But on the other hand, imagine how he would feel seeing all these comments. Since we were talking about cyber bullying. Saying why you find it disrespectful and 'please stop' is one thing. Going on and on about how bad and cringe-worthy and disrespectful he is and so on is another. (I'm quite sure some of the more outraged fans probably posted on his SNS, as well, by now...)

[SparkleSalad]

*plonk*

 

 

[Cerunias]

16 minutes ago, SparkleSalad said:

*plonk*

 

 

"I'm allowed to join the cool kids club too - look, my flag has red too!"

[dorkyiceprince]

5 hours ago, SparkleSalad said:

 

Image search: 羽生結弦 弓道

 

Things I did not know I needed wanted to see 

[SparkleSalad]

4 minutes ago, dorkyiceprince said:

 

Things I did not know I needed wanted to see 

 

 

https://m.bilibili.com/video/av10778484.html

 

Javi is in there! TKC?

[Xen]

@Toni @wingman:

My own 2 cents on this, and it's long, a bit depressing, don't read it if you don't want to have bad feels for the day, so I'll keep it hidden. 

Spoiler

1) Regarding what he said at CiONTU:

• I think it's enough for us, his fans to know that regardless of how much/intensity, was involved, at some point in his life and his skating career, he felt enough despair. I as a fan, personally, do not care for the amount of details, knowing is enough. Perhaps that was his intention-the message itself and the facts are very personal, and not something usually open to the public. It perhaps was meant for the closest of fans, the ones in attendance, the ones who follow him through and unconditionally support him. That such a group is aware is perhaps enough for him and all he is willing to reveal for now. Any further is up to him, at his pace, when he wants to show it that publicly-such details until then, are a purely private matter.
• East asia is realistically, very very much behind the times when it comes to mental health-the topic he raised is still viewed as a form of "mental weakness" of the individual. And for a society that values social coherence and harmony, being a crusader would be viewed as "fighting for attention" (in the negative sense). So long as east asia holds that mentality, I would not go on a campaign for the sake of "freedom of speech"-much as I personally support the idea of freedom of speech, anti-bullying, openness to discuss mental health etc, this is still a taboo topic in east asia for the sake of "harmonious society." If I were a PR firm, I'd advise against my clients on bringing up any of these issues while they still require some degree of popularity (while bullying is not encouraged, it's still a semi taboo topic). Furthermore, antis have used Yuzu's message against him already. A part of me is suspicious and wonder if Yuzu or even the team at Asahi saw this, so it was perhaps a deliberate attempt to stop the attacks so to speak. 

2) Regarding Antis:

• I'm sorry, there are some who already check even our forum. At some point, someone alerted me to the fact that an anti had already taken my translation of an interview with Zhao Hongbo (head coach of CSA) out of context by selective re-translation, and used it as anti-Yuzu fodder (dunno, guess to show even CSA agrees with anti view points). But what can we do other than point out that a) the original translation and video is not clearly anti; and b) notify people who don't know, that such a re-post is done with Anti-Yuzu context in mind?
• Antis are not Antis of Yuzu based on facts-for them being anti is an issue of belief or principle. It's a subjective viewpoint for many, that are not based in logic. Maybe some of the milder ones will at least go neutral over time. But the extreme ones? Probably not. There's quite a few studies done on extreme beliefs, confirmatory bias etc, and sadly, there is some objective fact that once something reaches a "belief" level, facts will have the opposite effect and simply reinforce existing bias (an "us vs them" mentality). 
• For now, I think the issue is "converting neutrals"-what I mean is allowing and helping neutral fans who do not have a confirmed bias, better understand FS, Yuzu and appreciate what he does. That is one area we can succeed. However, I would not go in the way of doing a loud campaign against TV Asahi, for reasons I'll get to next. It would fail pretty spectacularly in international relations/diplomacy when the US tries to brow-beat a neutral country (say Switzerland!) into supporting something that said country isn't into, and we see how that goes for US public relations image overseas. Our fandom in FS circles, is pretty much the equivalent of the US/China/Russia in international politics, so we need to handle our power with care when it comes to influencing fans lest we turn neutrals against us. 

3) Regarding Cyberbullying and dealing with antis:

• Here is the problem in us dealing with cyberbullying and even going too strong on some issues: in some cases, us Hanyu fans are viewed as cyberbullies. Part of the reason, is that the definition of "cyberbully" can be very fluid. Remember when ice network didn't have Yuzu's SP on its poll? Some Hanyu fans made sarcastic remarks and commented on it, and for some people in the FS community, that could be a form of "cyberbullying." That's where it matters that the sheer number of Hanyu fans (vocal ones even) carry the heft of US/China/Russia in international politics. It's considered by some more "neutral" people to be "rude." And "rude" may be enough to lead to ridicule against the Hanyu fandom, or at least not "like" Yuzu because of his "fans." Ridiculous? Illogical? Yeah, but since when did people always follow logic?
• From a personal perspective, I personally know people who in general do not like Hanyu fans for a myriad of reasons. As for how close-well, we are talking about the male half (and actually some of the female members) of my skating circles at home, that's some 20+ people I interact with fairly regularly. Whether justified or not, they tend to view Hanyu fans as a) into him for his looks; b) worship him as a god/saint/immortal; c) probably don't know anything about other skaters, don't watch other skaters because only have eyes for Hanyu; d) tend to not know jack about figure skating in general as a sport, only knows about Yuzu and that's it. This is in spite the fact they know I'm a Hanyu fan and probably negate all the above, and that they personally like Hanyu the most and would agree that other skaters are not at his level. Btw, they and even some of the Yuzu fans I know personally, don't actually view me as a Yuzu-fan (because I'm too...reasonable/polyamorous of other skaters)! Some of them even watched CiONTU (sadly some also ignored his talk due to lack of translation), but would also separate their like of him personally, and their dislike and ridicule of his extreme fandoms since they are separate critiques.
• Are the people mentioned above justified? Well, admittedly, our own fandom isn't completely clean. I've mentioned before that this forum is one of the more "sane" places devoted to him. I've walked into Baidu online fan bars for him, and ran out. There was for me at least, too much emphasis on his looks, too much fawning over him, and significant enough criticism leveled at Javi/Misha/Evgenia etc about how they are just using him as a tool for popularity online, and some genuine dislike of other skaters (Shoma, Nate etc) that was borderline anti. Even if this is a minority of the fandom, it does leave a lasting impression on people. And well, what can we do about it? Sadly not a lot in terms of control over fandom, and I doubt we want to cause a real split in the fandom over definition of "fan."

4) As for what we can do:

• Well I think some of the hashtags that have came up, such as "why I like Yuzuru" etc and even that "worst photography" contest is a good start. We can use the positive tags and pushes to drown out the negative ones. It also portrays us as a fandom, and Yuzu as a skater, as a normal, human being, not an inapproachable distant god-like entity (who could then be accused of arrogance since distance makes accusations easier). He and neutral fans can find these easily, and find some happiness and delight from it. 
• I think treating him as a human, respecting his privacy, other skaters' efforts etc is a step forward. Facts don't just work to help Yuzu, it can help figure skating as a whole. 
• Increasing knowledge of FS for new fans. This is why Max has my utmost respect, as does @kaerb and co's new podcast. We have strength in numbers, let's use it for good for promoting FS as a whole, which is something that I think Yuzu can get behind. 
• Facts, facts, facts that are skater neutral-while antis will deride it (as some went against Max's video), it persuades neutrals, and that is where the real battle is. Getting neutrals into appreciating FS as a whole, and Yuzu as a whole, is where the real battle is. 
• I also think @Toni that given Yuzu's hope that he can uplift the spirit of others, and inspire others, he would be quite fond of the children books that he inspires. Also, good luck with all the screenplays! Can't wait to see the movie adaptations!

 

Anyways, long post. Good luck with everything, and thank you for reporting (although how Twitter deals with it is not encouraging). I've always wondered if we should publicize who are antis so Yuzu fans who don't read Japanese, won't accidentally follow an anti? 

[Cerunias]

6 hours ago, SparkleSalad said:

 

Image search: 羽生結弦 弓道

Hang on @SparkleSalad...is this a real photo, or a photoshopped image? I thought @dotsquare's comment about Yuzuru in hakama practicing Japanese archery was just a joke?

[SparkleSalad]

I know this probably belongs in the music thread but I really hope Yuzu can do an EX to this one day. It's such a powerfully emotional and heart-wrenching song and I can't think of another skater with the gravitas to pull it off. The vocals pierce right through your heart. I can't listen to it without my eyes watering.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Hydroblade]

4 minutes ago, Cerunias said:

Hang on...is this a real photo, or a photoshopped image? I thought @dotsquare's comment about Yuzuru in hakama practicing his Japanese archery was just a joke?

photoshop

[SydneyH]

2 minutes ago, SparkleSalad said:

I know this probably belongs in the music thread but I really hope Yuzu can do an EX to this one day. It's such a powerfully emotional and heart-wrenching song and I can't think of another skater with the gravitas to pull it off. The vocals pierce right through your heart. I can't listen to it without my eyes watering.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

You're my hero , I love uuuuuuu 

[Hydroblade]

4 minutes ago, SparkleSalad said:

I know this probably belongs in the music thread but I really hope Yuzu can do an EX to this one day. It's such a powerfully emotional and heart-wrenching song and I can't think of another skater with the gravitas to pull it off. The vocals pierce right through your heart. I can't listen to it without my eyes watering.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

And it represents him so well...