Proposed changes for next season

[swanbeau]

1 minute ago, hoodie axel said:

Yes, but now his advantage is bare minimum. Xen hasn't done the calculations, but I think both Boyang and Shoma are pretty close to him. I think they would come up to 101-102.

 

So his advantage of ~15 points in BV is now just around 2 points, 4 at most.

Oh yeah at least now he gets consequences if he does that, thanks for reminding me  

[WinForPooh]

10 minutes ago, Xen said:

This issue distracted from the other issue that would have been rejected- eliminating the steps into solo jump in the SP. Having that rule actually helps Japan, especially if they move to tech panel. Essentially the TP can vote whether there were steps, and only then could that steps GOE be applied on the jumps. However, without the steps being a barrier, it's quite easy for many guys (cough US cough) to do a solo 4Lz or 4F and  not worry. Even if it hasn't been applied well these days, it's also a ticking time bomb because maybe some judges will apply it, hence you'd need to be more cautious if you can't do a 4Lz or 4F out of steps.

 

For Nathan, he could do this:

4Lz3T 4Lz 4F 3A//3Lz-Lo-3F 4T2T 3Lz , which even without bonus has 74.6 base BV, and if we go +2 GOE avg and bonus, would be 100.23, so he won't need the 4S technically.

 

Now if Zu goes this:

4Lo 4T 4S 3F//4T3T 3A1Lo3S 3A2T: base BV without bonus is 70.8 (which is tiny considering he doesn't do 2x 4Lz),  and +3 GOE avg and bonus he's around 104.5 (if +2 GOE he's around 95ish).

*If I add a FCCoSP4, CCSp4, FCoSp4, a StSq4 and ChSq all with +2 GOEs...the TES has hit 131.81. o_O Boy can go break his own record now, since I think somewhere there will be a +4/+5 GOE for his jumps.

 

The thing is...this layout from Zu is quite doable for him, and 4T3T is more stable than 4S3T.

 

 

 

 

If he gets well, he's going to have a 4A 4Lo 4S-3T 4T1Lo3S//4T 3A2T 3A layout in a year. And if he doesn't get the 4A this season, he'll upgrade somehow or the other, and I'd say we'll have a new CoD - a 4Lo combo. I very highly doubt he'd have the same tech as he did for H&L season. 

[EisElle]

Oh no I had forgotten that if Yuzu does 4Lo my favourite 3F in in danger  

The choice, with repeating 4T or 4S,  would be between 3F and 3Lz, so he would lose variety anyway (and the it would made little sense to do flip instead of lutz, tho he has first-half flip in his muscle memory by now) 

I can see it stay because

1)He wants so (and he kicks Lz away or says goodbye to the BV of repeated quad vs triple...unlikely imo or he repeats a quad and does both Lz and F but drops one 3A again but with goe being much more important and the chance to backload two stable 3Acombo probably it's not worth it

2)He does 4Lz in place of 3Lz but doesn't repeat any quad (he could afford the BV loss from repeat quad-->3F replacing 3Lz-->4Lz, probably he would not do both quad and triple Lutz and he could sacrifice a 5quad+2x3A layout to a 4 quads one for the pride of variety (less likely imo if he does 'only' 3 types of quads)

3)learns to do correct lo3F combo in place of lo3F or learns 4F, both highly unlikely 

(and we have to hope Yuzuru can jump 3F and 3Lz without pain first....and 3Lo too)

ETA my conclusion is: I wish Japan had not withdrawn the bonus for triples&quads variety

[KatjaThera]

I think speculating how Yuzu will deal with the new rules is really hard, because we have to remember he's said he's going to do what he wants from now on.  So he might actually do things more difficult than the rules require... I wouldn't be surprised if he'd want to challenge himself with more quads in the second half, to get bonus points, or do more crazy combinations. Of course, it all depends on his health.

 

It might also be worth remembering Brian did mention he also jumped 4F last Summer. Again, IF his health allows it, he might want to trump Nathan and be the first skater to do all types of quads. But this is all fantasy at this point. As far as we know, at this point in time he can only do 4T and 4S, so... too many question marks now, I think...

 

And has the new GOE system been adopted, too? Not just +5 - 5, but also the percentage thing? (ETA: I was hoping someone would defend 4A's honor...)

[swanbeau]

12 minutes ago, LadyLou said:

Oh no I had forgotten that if Yuzu does 4Lo my favourite 3F in in danger  

The choice, with repeating 4T or 4S,  would be between 3F and 3Lz, so he would lose variety anyway (and the it would made little sense to do flip instead of loop, tho he has first half flip in ho miscele memory by now) 

I can see it stay because

1)He wants so (and he kicks Lz away or says goodbye to the BV of repeated quad vs triple...unlikely imo or he repeats a quad and does both Lz and F but drops one 3A again but with goe being much more important and the chance to backload two stable 3Acombo probably it's not worth it

2)He does 4Lz in place of 3Lz but doesn't repeat any quad (he could afford the BV loss from repeat quad-->3F replacing 3Lz-->4Lz, probably he would not do both quad and triple Lutz and he could sacrifice a 5quad+2x3A layout to a 4 quads one for the pride of variety (less likely imo if he does 'only' 3 types of quads)

3)learns to do correct lo3F combo in place of lo3F or learns 4F, both highly unlikely 

(and we have to hope Yuzuru can jump 3F and 3Lz without pain first....and 3Lo too)

We yuzu's 3F lover are gonna be so deprived 

 

But wouldnt 3Lz be more dangerous for him if he's still managing his injury at the start of next season?

 

Is the chance of him learning lo3F really that low 

 

What if he does 3A3Lo tho

[Xen]

38 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

Yes, but now his advantage is bare minimum. Xen hasn't done the calculations, but I think both Boyang and Shoma are pretty close to him. I think they would come up to 101-102.

 

So his advantage of ~15 points in BV is now just around 2 points, 4 at most.

Actually, this amendment is the one that balances Nathan and Vincent Zhou out versus the other guys, more so than the 1 quad rule as originally stated. It is actually also, far more "fair" to guys who don't have more than a 4T and 4S yet, since they could theoretically work  the bonus half and gain some degree of lost points. Or go for the combo in the first half and do both solo quads in the bonus.

 

What is interesting though, is this definitely raises the importance of the 3A...which is actually quite interesting, because when the quad race started, I think the quality of 3As started decreasing.

 

Boyang:

4Lz3T 4S 4T 3A3T//  4T1Lo3S 3A 3Lz- with 2GOE avg, we're looking at 99.66, if he swaps for a solo 4Lz instead of 4T, 102.33

Shoma:

4F 4Lo 4T3T 3A1Lo3F//3A 4S2T 3Lz- with 2 GOE avg, looking at 98.1 but I think he's better off switching the 3A combo and the solo 3A around in order, or would that be too tiring?

 

So in terms of pure TES, it is a good thing to have more quads, and able to combo the heck out in the second half. Notice how Boyang could essentially surpass Nate in TES (which realistically probably won't be allowed to happen by judges via GOE), so I think Nate would still need to use the 4S once. But if you look at the layouts and scores above, Boyang, Shoma and even Yuzu are a LOT closer together in TES terms. Which means, GOEs and PCS play a greater role. I imagine the guys would go for the more conservative layouts in the end, since falls are punished more heavily now. So realistically, maybe less repeat 4Lz and 4F.

 

 

[hoodie axel]

4 minutes ago, Xen said:

What is interesting though, is this definitely raises the importance of the 3A...which is actually quite interesting, because when the quad race started, I think the quality of 3As started decreasing.

 

Well, yes. It's the same in ladies and with their 2As.

 

It's because they are no longer "worth it".

[Murieleirum]

1 hour ago, hoodie axel said:

his 4Lo and 4S are weak, and he'd need to make them better or rely on the 3A. Not sure which he'll do.

 

Probably going for stabilizing 4Lo and 4S, because they can give him more points in the end - his 3A cannot have such a high goe, but 4Lo and 4S, even with lots of preparation and not perfect landings, can have +2 easily

[sallycinnamon]

So there are technical workshops in which all the discussions happen and the Tech Committee can amend their proposals based on those discussions. We also don't know what happened between that workshop on Monday and today, I guess...lots of negotiations behind the scenes. 

I wish we could have a live stream of those workshops and the coffee break, not the actual voting, which is just a completely formal process. 

 

On the sidenote, it's possible to vote about proposals in packages according to Article 30 ("Voting at Congress") of the ISU Constituation, which doesn't explicitely say anything about it, so it means that it's allowed. In this case, it doesn't matter if there are only 5 or 40 proposals in a package. Tricky, and I don't like the process, but that's they way it is I guess...At least three (+2 countries) had enough guts to vote against the whole package.

 

Spoiler

Article 30 in the ISU Constitution

11. Voting at Congress

Voting at Congress is made by representatives of ISU Members present. Each ISU Member which controls both Branches shall have two votes. (ISU Members having 2 votes cannot split the vote when voting in the whole Congress, i.e. the two votes cannot be different one from the other). All other ISU Members shall have one vote. In dealing with the Special Regulations and Technical Rules for Figure or Speed Skating respectively, those ISU Members which have two votes shall have only one vote with respect to those Rules. The ISU Member organizing the Congress shall provide an electronic recording system of voting for resolutions and proposals for the Constitution, its Procedural Provisions and Regulations as well as for elections. The system must permit an open vote (not secret) for the voting on resolutions, proposals and other decisions as determined by the Chair and must permit a secret vote for the elections.

 

The quad repetition rules itself is not that bad for Yuzu, also because the importance of the 3A will grow. I guess the layout of 4Lo 4S 4T 3F (or 3Lz?)//4T-3T 3A-1Lo-3S 3A-2T would be doable, but we'll see what he'll decide to do. He's the best at calculating, so I think he's going to be fine. 

[ralucutzagy]

 

[Murieleirum]

1 hour ago, Xen said:

Now if Zu goes this:

4Lo 4T 4S 3F//4T3T 3A1Lo3S 3A2T: base BV without bonus is 70.8 (which is tiny considering he doesn't do 2x 4Lz),  and +3 GOE avg and bonus he's around 104.5 (if +2 GOE he's around 95ish).

*If I add a FCCoSP4, CCSp4, FCoSp4, a StSq4 and ChSq all with +2 GOEs...the TES has hit 131.81. o_O Boy can go break his own record now, since I think somewhere there will be a +4/+5 GOE for his jumps.

 

HELL YEAH CAN SEPTEMBER COME ALREADY.

[sallycinnamon]

I wonder if we'll see a revolution in the men's costumes fashion now that they are allowed to wear tights 

[swanbeau]

16 minutes ago, sallycinnamon said:

I wonder if we'll see a revolution in the men's costumes fashion now that they are allowed to wear tights 

There better be! It'll be interesting! 

[Pamigena]

1 hour ago, yuzupon said:

I've got a question. Are there any more distiction between what's required or allowed for ladies and for men?

Bcz if not, ISU might as well merge the single disciplines together, perhaps starting in Junior. We all know those ladies would eat the men alive; Trusova's ultimate dream finally will be fulfilled.

 

If judges can't tell steps before a jump, are we confident they can tell boy from girl?

 

 

 

 

or maybe that's why they needed the Men in Tights Rule, to make their life easier 

yesIwentthere

[yuzuonice]

1 hour ago, ICeleste said:

Yuzuru, right now: I'm glad 3A is my best friend 

where's a gif of him, , and 3A dancing together in a circle in a field