General Skating Chat

[OonsieHui]

5 minutes ago, cinemacoconut said:

Or just raise the PCS so u can get max 150 than 100. 

 

Raising the PCS ceiling does nothing. It'll just be the current situation, but with higher marks. 

 

All they really need to do is start doing their damn job and use PCS as its intended and how it's supposed to be awarded rather than as free candies to influence results.  

[swanbeau]

9 minutes ago, Xen said:

We've been so  focused on the men's we utterly forgot how this would work in ladies. I think that's the real discipline that will be hit hardest. Think of what would happen to TES if say, Rika misses a 3A, or if Sasha misses a 4S. The risk far outweighs reward for the ladies, so in sum, the ladies can say goodbye to TES progress for a while. A Long while. Instead, the current lack of differentiation and muddling of PCS gets continued for a while longer, since the ladies have too much at stake if they attempt to raise TES with quads or 3A.

 

Ladies= real loser of the rules.

this. what a coincidence that when ladies who do quads and 3A started to really come up a lot (and winning) and they now wanna reduce quads BV (falls -5 GOE too tho i think thats fine) but imo the ladies who wanna push their tes wont stop since i think they find it fun and they love jumping it

[Murieleirum]

9 minutes ago, OonsieHui said:

 

Raising the PCS ceiling does nothing. It'll just be the current situation, but with higher marks. 

 

All they really need to do is start doing their damn job and use PCS as its intended and how it's supposed to be awarded rather than as free candies to influence results.  

 

They should raise PCS by a certain percentage at least in the Men's field. It's true that PCS and TES have become unbalanced since GPF 2015, because of Yuzuru's stellar scores, and PCS scoring has been dealt with poorly since. 

Italian skating experts have calculated that with PCS value increased by 10% or something (I don't remember precisely), the top 6 in all fields remained the same. Only, the score gap between Yuzuru and Shoma was, if I remember correctly, 20 points and not 10 points. 

 

[meoima]

I think the new rules are made so judges will be able to reward skaters with beautiful upper body movements, punish mistakes more more harshly, balance the structure of the program and give less bonus on gaming the system. 

I get the general ideas. But how will they apply these will be an issue.

[Xen]

7 minutes ago, swanbeau said:

this. what a coincidence that when ladies who do quads and 3A started to really come up a lot (and winning) and they now wanna reduce quads BV (falls -5 GOE too tho i think thats fine)

Well it's percentile based, so -5 GOE might not translate directly to -5 BV and more.

But still, even if you tie a -5 GOE to a % reduction, it's still quite a lot, especially if you add in a fall. And it coincides too much with which countries and which skaters are going to be moving up the ranks to senior and happen to have 3As and quads a plenty in their ladies. The men at least have some control over their fate, since BV differentiation between quads and triples still exist, so good quads are still rewarded, and 4T/4S and 3A are still the goalposts for men. But for ladies, that buffer does not exist, so I can see some would be discouraged from risking their TES with new jumps.

[wombat-poodle]

4 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

They should raise PCS by a certain percentage at least in the Men's field. It's true that PCS and TES have become unbalanced since GPF 2015, because of Yuzuru's stellar scores, and PCS scoring has been dealt with poorly since. 

Italian skating experts have calculated that with PCS value increased by 10% or something (I don't remember precisely), the top 6 in all fields remained the same. Only, the score gap between Yuzuru and Shoma was, if I remember correctly, 20 points and not 10 points. 

 

 

I think Max Ambesi once said PCS should be increased by 20% (factored by 1.2 instead of 1.0) to match the current average TES scores of top male skaters.

[swanbeau]

7 minutes ago, wombat-poodle said:

 

I think Max Ambesi once said PCS should be increased by 20% (factored by 1.2 instead of 1.0) to match the current average TES scores of top male skaters.

the thing with that is it only matches the top male skaters.... the current junior male skaters with increased factored pcs will be a bit err just... no. and there's no guarantee judges will comply with it anyway so no stopping them from doing what is basically the same as now just with higher score, again benefiting big feds.... since small feds rarely gets 8s in pcs when they turn senior (or even after a while lmao) even when they actually deserve higher scores... and they cant force the scores with higher tes with so big of pcs gap (which will always benefit big feds n reputation whatever happens imo). changing factoring in only men would look weird too honestly. ppl would question what makes ladies, pairs and ice dance not deserving it, etc

[wombat-poodle]

Just now, swanbeau said:

the thing with that is it only matches the top male skaters.... the current junior male skaters with increased factored pcs will be a bit err just... no. and there's no guarantee judges will comply with it anyway so no stopping them from doing what is basically the same as now just with higher score, again benefiting big feds.... since small feds rarely gets 8s in pcs when they turn senior (or even after a while lmao) even when they actually deserve higher scores... and they cant force the scores with higher tes with so big of pcs gap (which will always benefit big feds n reputation whatever happens imo). changing factoring in only men would look weird too honestly. ppl would question what makes ladies, pairs and ice dance not deserving it, etc

 

Maybe they should factor TES down instead? But then the same issues still arise... It's a difficult problem. 

[cinemacoconut]

We have to make more point getters for PCS.

 

In the end more points for PCS benefits Hanyu too. hanyu is so expressive and musical. 

[Murieleirum]

13 minutes ago, swanbeau said:

the thing with that is it only matches the top male skaters.... the current junior male skaters with increased factored pcs will be a bit err just... no. and there's no guarantee judges will comply with it anyway so no stopping them from doing what is basically the same as now just with higher score, again benefiting big feds.... since small feds rarely gets 8s in pcs when they turn senior (or even after a while lmao) even when they actually deserve higher scores... and they cant force the scores with higher tes with so big of pcs gap (which will always benefit big feds n reputation whatever happens imo). changing factoring in only men would look weird too honestly. ppl would question what makes ladies, pairs and ice dance not deserving it, etc

 

Well look at Vincent Zhou. He scored 79 PCS in his free program. I don't think that's what he deserved. With higher score in PCS (by 20%, yes, thank you very much for reminding me) the gap between TES and Program components could be better highlighted. But, of course, the major change still has to be in HOW the skaters are judged. By now, we all agree with that. Max has been saying it for different years. 

He should have been a guest of honor in ISU's reunion today LOL. 

[xeyra]

At this point I understand falls are likely to be very costly, so much so an average triple might get better scores than the quad attempt. A stepout worth -3 GOE (30% off BV if by 10% intervals as was the initial idea icenetwork mentioned a while ago) might cost more than a stepout now. This will curtail some progress in the ladies and we'll have to see if it'll have an effect on the men and their number of quads in a program.

 

However, I'm puzzled how we've heard more about how elements will be penalized but absolutely nothing about how they'll be rewarded with the new scoring interval. 

[EisElle]

40 minutes ago, swanbeau said:

changing factoring in only men would look weird too honestly. ppl would question what makes ladies, pairs and ice dance not deserving it, etc

Tbh I don't really see an issue with this, men is already the only discipline with different factoring, so it is already different from the others, and it's the only one were top scores show an obvious unbalance between tes and pcs. Since the start of this judging system the aim has always been to have top (or potential top) tes quite close to top pcs, that's why ladies, pairs and ID have a lower factoring, because their top tes are much lower. So changing the factoring would actually be the most obvious and natural thing to do in order to have again top scores with balanced tes and pcs (while now there is a 30 points gap). And rn, for men 40 tes in SP is actually way easier to get than 40 pcs, so a change imo would be reasonable. The real problem, as always, is how pcs are awarded, not their guidelines nor their factoring. If I could really trust judges, I'd say that would be 100% a positive change. But I don't really trust judges

 

Re: positive goe

My guess is that the bullets might be the same, maybe a couple more bullets to have 10 of them so you need to hit two for each +1. Or reduce them to 5, each one worth +1 (I don't think this would be good tho). I wonder if a couple features might be worth a +2. Maybe big jumps could earn a +2, or maybe even delayed rotation which makes jumps way harder to rotate. If I'll see a bullet for proper take off and proper technique I'll be happy, tho those should really be part of basic requirements for 0 goe and anything less than "proper" should get a range of negative goe, depending on how bad technique is.

[meoima]

4 hours ago, moonkat said:

 

 Well, they found Yuzuru's weakness: his noodly arms and relaxed posture.   The power of the US fed isn't surprising, considering the power of the nation itself. Even if figure skating isn't as popular in the US as in other countries, the highly visible Winter Olympics still serve as motivation for powerful figures to influence the sport in the favor of the US.

It might be time for TCC to hold the aesthetically pleasing movement class where students learn to copy the transitional arm movement and body posture of top US skaters

It's not that they're addressing Yuzuru. The trainers were just teasing. 

 

[ICeleste]

they're reducing the BV of quads and applying -5 GOEs on falls... I wonder how this is going to affect the quadsters' plans. also, stamina won't be rewarded if they cancel the 10% bonus... these new rules could benefit skaters like Javi so maybe he shouldn't have retired so early.

in theory, I do agree that the GOEs range should be +5/-5 so things like good height and distance, difficult entries and arm positions, transitions in and out of the jump and the jump matching the music can make a bigger difference and have more weight on the score. in practice though, I doubt they'll actually consider those bullet points to give out the candies. in reality, they now have more room to prop up the skaters they favour.

i guess i expect Yuzuru to get even more relatively underscored in the "subjective" marks... i'm glad though that he seems satisfied with the medals and scores he's earned so far and that now he's mainly motivated to land Nessie, which is a record that no judge could take away from him.

rewarding a SKATER's armwork as much as their FOOTwork just sounds ridiculous to me 

the silver lining is that now Zu could show up with a KOI program next season and get 10s on TR all around for his quality arm movements

[Winnie_20]

Hhhmmm.... what were the changes the Dutch ISU judge said he (?) or general they had suggested? Something about only max three (?) jumps in the second half getting a bonus.

But then, I think he also talked about wanting two championships, one for jumps and one for artistry? Ugh... something like that. Thank goodness it doesn’t sound like they are going that way!