General Skating Chat

[singcarcom]

4 hours ago, Joey said:

 

  

    

     

  

    

 

    

 

Aka the smily reaction trajectory of someone who thinks IN is his biggest strength. Yes, there, I said it. Over his god level transitions, over his absolute top-notch SS. Over his complex, often unique and detailed choreo. And over his commanding presence and intensity giving his performances the "you will watch this!" extra. The. Best. Part.

 

I am sorry Max & Angelo, I love you dearly, but you are most certainly off my list of trusted advisers for the best Interpretation in Figure Skating Christmas Party list.

Though truth be told, if we look back at Max screaming "Interpretation - 10!" after WC17's Hope & Legacy... I will just assume they wanted to try and name some others, because maybe "Yuzuru Hanyu invented skating and deserves 11 in every category" didn't sound quite as professional as bringing some other names in. I have faith

Your reaction is great!  

 

Personally I feel that with the exception of SS where Patrick might have a small edge, I think Yuzu is the best at all other components of PCS! I think maybe they wanted to name more skaters so it doesn't sound like they are biased Yuzu fanboys? 

 

And I shall interpret "not his forte" as a "only 95/100 rather than full marks"...woes of a super-achiever. 

[ruruzest]

Yuzu’s interpretation of his program is super even to casual fan who don’t understand much about tech like me. All I know is that he moves me to tears watching his skating , somehow it resonates with my soul and heart and brings out extreme emotion in me. His movements are so pleasing and aesthetically appealing to me.  I would think the reason why we see fans cry watching him live or just on tv is that he presents himself in an honest way, that he sincerely respects the sport for the sake of it , not just to skate in order to rack up points . My two cents....

[EisElle]

In their defense, I might have mis-heard something because I was multitasking (listening, typing, swithcing between two languages,  collecting my own thoughts on the matter...which included a rather detailed mental review of all Yuzu's programs...sorry, my brain struggles doing all of that at once) and it was late... I'll let you know later, after I'll listen to the whole podcast. But I felt they weren't really saying "it's bad", more like "there are things he's way better at". When your base line is very high, like in Yuzuru's case, what would be outstanding for others can became "not his strongest suit" for him. Tho, of course, I still think that's not true, not when talking about Yuzuru in general, without focusing on a particular skate (eg I'd agree that, in ACI Seimei, IN and PE weren't his strongest point...)

 

ETA: btw, I think I've read somewhere that when zuzu was younger (like in juniors, or at least before the earthquake?) they said that he hadn't strong projection/connection with the audience. Can anyone confirm this or is it just me hallucinating? (happened a few times before, my memory isn't that reliable)

[Mastyaeva]

12 минут назад, LadyLou сказал:

btw, I think I've read somewhere that when zuzu was younger (like in juniors, or at least before the earthquake?) they said that he did not had strong projection. Can anyone confirm this or is it just me hallucinating? (happened a few times before, my memory isn't that reliable)

I'm not sure about the general opinion, but I remember watching the recording of one of Yuzu's Notre-Dames, Eurosport2, and Russian commentators kept saying that although Yuzu's spins and SS were great they couldn't get what he wanted to express. I think, they wanted to say, there wasn't a clear story or one main emotion in this programme, only beautiful movements, changing according to the music. 

[Lunna]

41 минуту назад, Mastyaeva сказал:

I'm not sure about the general opinion, but I remember watching the recording of one of Yuzu's Notre-Dames, Eurosport2, and Russian commentators kept saying that although Yuzu's spins and SS were great they couldn't get what he wanted to express. I think, they wanted to say, there wasn't a clear story or one main emotion in this programme, only beautiful movements, changing according to the music. 

I think he just didn't connect with that music in that time. Especially if you compare it with his performances in previous year.

I think Yuzu's IN isn't there 100% all the time like if he isn't in the top form / don't have enough stamina for FS / it's a new programmes / just has a bad skate but he clearly tries to get better at this (old programmes are really helpful with that), but when he's on he's outstanding.

[Murieleirum]

I'm listening to Max and Angelo's podcast. So far, they've talked about PCS a lot, but they didn't talk about the singles voices of PCS individually for now. They only said (so far) that the star skaters that deserve more or less high PCS in all the components are Hanyu, Fernandez and Chan (in this order). The other skaters are incomplete in some voices, thus the scores need to be more differentiated (Uno, Chen, etc).

[Murieleirum]

17 hours ago, LadyLou said:

I'm listening to the last part of this evening podcast from Max and Angelo, they're ranking top men for the different pcs cathegories

(warning, not accurate report, I'm not good at multitasking, so maybe there are major mistakes in what I'm writing)

they're ranking

for SS 1)Patrick 2)Yuzuru, tho they have different strenght

TR 1)Yuzuru 2) Javier

PE 1) Javier (I don't remember the others, Shoma, I think?) for overall accuracy of all body movements? Don't remember, I was listening and typing sorry (reading the rulebook, maybe for "personality" and clarity of movements?)

IN 1) Fernandez? (tho still this season they haven't seen the best Fernandez). They say Patrick and Yuzu are a bit lower, IN isn't Yuzu's forte** (burn the ITA ESP at the stake kidding  but still I beg to differ) (and I'm not sure if I haven't messed PE and IN...the more I try to remember the less sure I amsorry, guys, you'll have to wait for the translation of the words of someone else listening to the podcastand tomorrow maybe I'll re-listen and get this right)

CO maybe Patrick because he's more mature and can link better everything with some meaning

 

The truth is, Max and Angelo can't quite say their personal opinion, which is - they've already said it many times - that Yuzuru Hanyu is the greatest skater of all time. 

But they have to be objective during the podcast, and they wanted to try and distinguish clearly the differences between Yuzuru and Javier. And I do agree that, among the two, Javier's Performance ability is more 'extrovert'. He's better at projecting. Yuzuru steals your heart during your competition, but he does it silently, when he's not writing history with world records. Yuzuru's PE and IN varies very differently from performance to performance. 

[EisElle]

29 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

I'm listening to Max and Angelo's podcast. So far, they've talked about PCS a lot, but they didn't talk about the singles voices of PCS individually for now. They only said (so far) that the star skaters that deserve more or less high PCS in all the components are Hanyu, Fernandez and Chan (in this order). The other skaters are incomplete in some voices, thus the scores need to be more differentiated (Uno, Chen, etc).

they were answering a question about how they'd ranked the different pcs. It was I think past half of the podcast

 

ETA lol you quoted me in the same moment I was quoting you

 

imo if we speak only about competitive programs, it might be true that maybe Javier is the best at selling his program even despite technical flaws. It's also possible this might be because his programs are always about a character and he usually doesn't let his mistake affect his "character". It certainly requires a lot of focus, but I also wonder how much of that feeling of "yes, he's still feeling the music" is linked to the presence itself of that character, regardless of how much in a particular occasion the skater is really in tune with that character and not just "acting".

And I still haven't listened to the whole podcast, so I don't know what they were talking about before

 

ETA 2 I also wonder if a technical mistake might affect Yuzuru more because of how he perceives the performance, as a "whole", not a sum of parts. Even as a viewer jumps are such an integral part of his programs, because they are "expression" too.

 

[Murieleirum]

Basically, the theme of the second half of the podcast was 'differentiation of the PCS components'. So, to be fair, being objective also means that Yuzuru doesn't necessarily have to be the best at EVERYTHING, ALWAYS. Max is the first one to demand 100 in PCS when Athletes deserve it (and he only asked for it twice: GPF 2015 and World 2017. For Yuzuru). So he is the first one that says that Yuzuru is the most complete skater. But, there's nothing wrong in saying that Yuzuru could learn one thing or two about PE and CO from Javier and Patrick, whom are his seniors, have 3 years of experience more than him. Also, Shoma's concentration during his programs is higher than Yuzuru's, imo. Yuzuru's mind goes everywhere and anywhere, you can often see it. Shoma being always focused allows him to be perceived stronger in IN. 

Although, I think Max and Angelo didn't quite consider the music component. In my opinion, Yuzuru is the strongest in music's interpretation. The way he listens to his own music and performs every element to the beat of the music, is unbeatable. 

[sweetwater]

5 hours ago, LadyLou said:

ETA: btw, I think I've read somewhere that when zuzu was younger (like in juniors, or at least before the earthquake?) they said that he hadn't strong projection/connection with the audience. Can anyone confirm this or is it just me hallucinating? (happened a few times before, my memory isn't that reliable)

Reminds me of what Tracy said on Yuzu's R&J 1.0 in NBC broadcast of Worlds 2012. Compared to how he performs now he really looks a bit introverted here. I also remember that he said that people (coaches and choreographers I think) pointed out that he had a tendency to get absorbed in himself too much and that he should direct his awareness to outside world. (source: an article published on WebSportiva in 2015) However, I’m not sure if these have anything to do with what was said in Max’s podcast. And I think in LGC last season he was clearly be able to connect with the audience, and in H&L he was able to get absorbed in himself and open himself up at the same time.

[Xen]

1 hour ago, Murieleirum said:

Basically, the theme of the second half of the podcast was 'differentiation of the PCS components'. So, to be fair, being objective also means that Yuzuru doesn't necessarily have to be the best at EVERYTHING, ALWAYS. Max is the first one to demand 100 in PCS when Athletes deserve it (and he only asked for it twice: GPF 2015 and World 2017. For Yuzuru). So he is the first one that says that Yuzuru is the most complete skater. But, there's nothing wrong in saying that Yuzuru could learn one thing or two about PE and CO from Javier and Patrick, whom are his seniors, have 3 years of experience more than him. Also, Shoma's concentration during his programs is higher than Yuzuru's, imo. Yuzuru's mind goes everywhere and anywhere, you can often see it. Shoma being always focused allows him to be perceived stronger in IN. 

Although, I think Max and Angelo didn't quite consider the music component. In my opinion, Yuzuru is the strongest in music's interpretation. The way he listens to his own music and performs every element to the beat of the music, is unbeatable. 

My 2 cents about Yuzu's skating. 

I think as fans, we really love his skating, but casual observers might not. And that unfortunately might just be due to the music choices. Portraying a character, a la Javi, might be easier for an audience to get-there's a ready made story that people can follow, and can serve as guidance to the skater. While skaters who are more "free-flowing" with their music choices and expression of skating, are less appreciated by casual observers- a la Yuzu's Hope and Legacy, and even Pchiddy's music choices this season, and in Ladies I think prime example would be Mai's Gabriel's Oboe. 

 

Over in the translations, there's a really good translation of Kenji's room, and in part 4, around 23 min, Yuzu says something that I think is telling, not just about his interpretive style. It is when he said that he's okay with the music forcing him to grow. Essentially, he will train himself to do better with the chosen music, not choose music to cover up weaknesses or emphasize his strengths. Letting himself be the vehicle for the music to be conveyed, and not letting the music be the vehicle for his style-it's actually a bit arrogant, but respectful towards the music.  Artistically, Yuzu has a very light, airy style to his skating. It's delightful to watch when he is on, but I think stylistically it is the one that is far less forgiving of errors because it is a far more delicate style, and to achieve the ease and lightness it is extremely demanding technically. I think only when he skated error-free at worlds, was Hope and Legacy truly appreciated, but I would argue that Yuzu's actual style is the airy, breezy, light Hope and Legacy (even the dramatic seimei is delicate in places). If you combine this personal skating preferred style, with his goal to be a vehicle for the music itself, plus some of his music choices, it is obviously going to be harder for him to appeal to everyone for IN and PE. But Seimei is probably better than Hope and Legacy in that regard. 

 

Actually what is really funny about SS and TR is that I was talking about this with a rinkmate (probably infamous by now), and said rinkmate would rank Javi higher than Yuzu on SS, and have deeper edges than Yuzu. Seriously. He prefers the stability and solidity of Javi and Pchiddy over Yuzu. And actually thinks that Pchiddy and Javi are faster than Yuzu skating speed wise. I think the speed is similar enough, but actually from ACI, I had a much harder time keeping Yuzu in my phone's little recording frame, less so for Javi. But that's another issue- Yuzu is fast, so even when he fully extends out, due to speed, he might give people the impression that he's less steady, and might be more likely to mess up a bit (if the lv3 Stsq is anything), even if in reality its anything but that. 

[Murieleirum]

58 minutes ago, Xen said:

My 2 cents about Yuzu's skating. 

I think as fans, we really love his skating, but casual observers might not. And that unfortunately might just be due to the music choices. Portraying a character, a la Javi, might be easier for an audience to get-there's a ready made story that people can follow, and can serve as guidance to the skater. While skaters who are more "free-flowing" with their music choices and expression of skating, are less appreciated by casual observers- a la Yuzu's Hope and Legacy, and even Pchiddy's music choices this season, and in Ladies I think prime example would be Mai's Gabriel's Oboe. 

 

Over in the translations, there's a really good translation of Kenji's room, and in part 4, around 23 min, Yuzu says something that I think is telling, not just about his interpretive style. It is when he said that he's okay with the music forcing him to grow. Essentially, he will train himself to do better with the chosen music, not choose music to cover up weaknesses or emphasize his strengths. Letting himself be the vehicle for the music to be conveyed, and not letting the music be the vehicle for his style-it's actually a bit arrogant, but respectful towards the music.  Artistically, Yuzu has a very light, airy style to his skating. It's delightful to watch when he is on, but I think stylistically it is the one that is far less forgiving of errors because it is a far more delicate style, and to achieve the ease and lightness it is extremely demanding technically. I think only when he skated error-free at worlds, was Hope and Legacy truly appreciated, but I would argue that Yuzu's actual style is the airy, breezy, light Hope and Legacy (even the dramatic seimei is delicate in places). If you combine this personal skating preferred style, with his goal to be a vehicle for the music itself, plus some of his music choices, it is obviously going to be harder for him to appeal to everyone for IN and PE. But Seimei is probably better than Hope and Legacy in that regard. 

 

Actually what is really funny about SS and TR is that I was talking about this with a rinkmate (probably infamous by now), and said rinkmate would rank Javi higher than Yuzu on SS, and have deeper edges than Yuzu. Seriously. He prefers the stability and solidity of Javi and Pchiddy over Yuzu. And actually thinks that Pchiddy and Javi are faster than Yuzu skating speed wise. I think the speed is similar enough, but actually from ACI, I had a much harder time keeping Yuzu in my phone's little recording frame, less so for Javi. But that's another issue- Yuzu is fast, so even when he fully extends out, due to speed, he might give people the impression that he's less steady, and might be more likely to mess up a bit (if the lv3 Stsq is anything), even if in reality its anything but that. 

 

Yes to everything you said. 

Yuzuru's "style" is more delicate, and being more delicate, it 'breaks' more easily in the eyes of the spectators. This fragility may take away from him the 'number one in PE and IN" title. But it's probably what his fans appreciate the most. His being real, always, and human. Never portraying a character, always being himself (even with Seimei). Aaaah I am so soft for him though.

[Lunna]

1 час назад, Xen сказал:

I think as fans, we really love his skating, but casual observers might not. And that unfortunately might just be due to the music choices. Portraying a character, a la Javi, might be easier for an audience to get-there's a ready made story that people can follow, and can serve as guidance to the skater. While skaters who are more "free-flowing" with their music choices and expression of skating, are less appreciated by casual observers- a la Yuzu's Hope and Legacy, and even Pchiddy's music choices this season, and in Ladies I think prime example would be Mai's Gabriel's Oboe. 

I think skating not only to character music can be appealing to the casual observers (especially if'll go back in history) . When "classics" is skated beautifully the audience really understands it. H&L was harder to understand especially with mistakes but Chopin I think is more appealing to the public maybe cuz the music has clear ups and downs.

[EisElle]

3 minutes ago, sweetwater said:

Reminds me of what Tracy said on Yuzu's R&J 1.0 in NBC broadcast of Worlds 2012. Compared to how he performs now he really looks a bit introverted here. I also remember that he said that people (coaches and choreographers I think) pointed out that he had a tendency to get absorbed in himself too much and that he should direct his awareness to outside world. (source: an article published of WebSportiva in 2015) However, I’m not sure if these have anything to do with what was said in Max’s podcast. And I think in LGC last season he was clearly be able to connect with the audience, and in H&L he was able to get absorbed in himself and open himself up at the same time.

iirc someone *in the other place* said that Yuzuru is more the type that "draws you in" instead of "projecting outside".

 

tbh I'm always a bit at loss at what "projection" really is. I mean, I've read the definition, but I don't know if I can say that skater A is better than B, because apparently my emotional involvment in a performance or a skater has nothing to do with how good projection is.

I enjoy watching Mai, tho people say all the time she's not good at all in that department, while I don't really care about watching  skaters that apparently ooze charisma off their pores and should make me absolutely super-thrilled about wathcing them, so to me, that "ability to project" is way more mysterious than, say, music interpretation.

Maybe I should wait and see fs in person to understand the different degrees of projection. But, watching through a screen, I'm not really sure why the "projection" should necessarily imply an outward approach. When I watch skaters, I watch how their bodies move, their lines, how everything, from feet to fingertips (I'm a sucker for good fingers movements) contribute to express the music and the concept. I don't need anything more than that, no super facial emoting or grand gestures, no characters, to feel connected to a skater.

And if I were to recall that time the very first time I run into FS (I could be the poster girl of casual audience back then, easily bored, liking warhorses and flashy moves. Pretty faces too), then I was way more impressed by a certain swiss guy's spins than by Plushy's legendary charisma (and both were skating to music I was very familiar with). And I remember also liking Buttle. So projection there didn't worked on me that well, sorry Plushy  And I liked pretty spirals for ladies... I don't know, would you call Slutskaya good at projection? I think I liked her for her red dress with those nice sleeves and lively music and Biellmans, and maybe for her big jumps. And for pairs, were Tomtianina and Marinin so much ahed of the rest for projection, too? Because they were the only ones that I liked instantly. Or was I just impressed by her pretty landings on throw jumps and their warhorse music?  (btw I saw them on one of those videos about ISU components linked a few pages ago iirc by @fireovertheice. Clarity of movement for PE). I'm just trying to understand if projection might have had any influence at all on how I, as a casual viewer, felt connected to some skaters instead of others. I might add that, while Yuzuru's Chopin Ballade and RJ1 were instant hit for me, and Notte Stellata too (to a lesser degree I think H&L, tho in the end it might have become the program I've rewatched the most by now), both PW and LGC needed a warm-up time for me. So, at least for me, connecting to a skater has little to do with having a character or being a "in your face" type of performance...

I'd be really curious to know how much viewers' expectations weight on how easily they feel involved with a piece, and how much instead the music itself weights. Or maybe even just something trivial as a skater's physical appearance (as in body type).

I also wonder if there might be differences about what is regarded as good projection for men and ladies. This might be related to viewers' expectations. Maybe one can feel more connected to a quiet, sweet piece if it's skated by a willowy, graceful lady and not by a sturdy man (supposing everything else to be in par)? So the lady would be deemed better at projection when it's only thanks to her looks I'm really curious.

And, Idk, I have the feeling that sometimes focus and committment are mistakenly seen as awareness and emotional depth of performance.

 

1 hour ago, Murieleirum said:

But, there's nothing wrong in saying that Yuzuru could learn one thing or two about PE and CO from Javier and Patrick, whom are his seniors, have 3 years of experience more than him. Also, Shoma's concentration during his programs is higher than Yuzuru's, imo. Yuzuru's mind goes everywhere and anywhere, you can often see it. Shoma being always focused allows him to be perceived stronger in IN. 

Although, I think Max and Angelo didn't quite consider the music component. In my opinion, Yuzuru is the strongest in music's interpretation. The way he listens to his own music and performs every element to the beat of the music, is unbeatable. 

 

and now I'm laughing, thinking back to zuzu who was pondering on which hard entry he would do into his YOLO 3A and then ended popping it I love his nerdy big brain, but somemtimes he should just turn it off. Tho that's easier said than done

 

@Xen I love that part of Kenji's room too (tbh, I love every part of those Yuzu-Kenji interactions),  he makes things harder for himself to stay true to what the music needs, it's really admirable.

And Yuzuru is also so fastidious about the timing and entries of his jumps... just for that, I don't think anyone could ever deny his inner musicality, it's a strenght but in some cases can also turn into a weakness, when the timing is off and he ends messing things...

But it was superfussy Zuzu who had more than 30 music cuts done for Seimei, till music expressed the vision of the character, and with Shae-Lynn produced that iconic masterpiece... so it's ok, zuzu, keep being fussy all you want

and now I so want to see Seimei 2.0 at its absolute best

 

[Sombreuil]

37 minutes ago, LadyLou said:

 

I'd be really curious to know how much viewers' expectations weight on how easily they feel involved with a piece, and how much instead the music itself weights. Or maybe even just something trivial as a skater's physical appearance (as in body type).

 

 

I think sometimes the music weighs very heavily - one commentator, can't remember who (KB?) said last season that with Nathan's FS Borodin did the heavy lifting for him - people liked the music and saw artistry and interpretation that wasn't really there.  Despite the much vaunted ballet background (which to me is totally irrelevant - if I want to watch ballet I go to the ballet-)  he looks so much more at home with his modern SP this season.  Looking at Zagitovas ex I wonder if she might prefer to break away from the tutus given half a chance.  And warhorses are used for good reasons - the Olympic only watcher expects to hear them and connects with them.