General Skating Chat

[fireovertheice]

3 hours ago, xeyra said:

@fireovertheice

I don't want to abuse your goodwill in doing all of this, but would it be feasible to analyse the FS of someone who doesn't do quads (or attempts only 1) for a comparative view? I'd suggest Jason Brown, for example. I think that might be interesting. No worries if that's more than what you feel like doing right now. I know this is not easy work! 

 

Dear @xeyra

I have done the counts for Jason Brown as you suggested - also because till saturday I will not have time for new analysis like this. I have updated the table again with the data: https://planethanyu.com/topic/44-general-skating-chat/?do=findComment&comment=115065

If you look at that, you can draw your conclusions and share them with us? And which is the opinion of the others?

 

Looking at protocols, it is clear to me that the judges do not give easily scores above 9 in men's field to who hasn't / don't land quads, also if one has very good skating skills and some difficult transitions, as Jason does (also with holds longer than many others).

 

And again, if I look at the program of Yuzuru, at his numbers on the table, at his jumps layout and at his scores in SS, TR and CO (for now in the 9.50s, 9.70s at Worlds 2017), plus at his speed and ice coverage in comparison to Jason, I would say that the maximum range of 9/9.10s, so similar to the scores given at SC, is right for Brown. The same if you compare him / his scores for these components to Patrick's (SS 9.25, TR 9.18 at last SC). What I don't get is 9.29 in SS and 9.11 in CO for Shoma, but I have already explained it.

 

If you look at the protocols until now, it's also evident, on the contrary, that landing one or more quads don't give you necessarily scores above the 9s in SS, TR and CO: see Alexander Samarin FS at SC (2 quads, from 7.71 to 8.04 > PCS 78.36), Max Aaron FS in CoC (3 quads, from 7.71 to 8.21 > PCS 79.89), Vincent Zhou at CoC (5 quads, from 7.29 to 7.64 > PCS 75.08) and more Boyang Jin (4 quads, from  7.54 to 8.21 > PCS 78.78).

At a first look this could seem right, as the PCS scores should be not so tied with TES, if it was not depending by the reputation and whatever else (if Shoma in some compartments seems to me a little bit overscored, Max and Boyang remain a little bit underscored..).

 

[Xen]

3 hours ago, fireovertheice said:

 

Dear @xeyra

I have done the counts for Jason Brown as you suggested - also because till saturday I will not have time for new analysis like this. I have updated the table again with the data: https://planethanyu.com/topic/44-general-skating-chat/?do=findComment&comment=115065

If you look at that, you can draw your conclusions and share them with us? And which is the opinion of the others?

 

Looking at protocols, it is clear to me that the judges do not give easily scores above 9 in men's field to who has / don't land quads, also if one has very good skating skills and some difficult transitions, as Jason does (also with holds longer than many others).

And again, if I look at the program of Yuzuru, at his numbers on the table, at his jumps layout and at his scores in SS, TR and CO (for now in the 9.50s, 9.70s at Worlds 2017), plus at his speed and ice coverage in comparison to Jason, I would say that the maximum range of 9/9.10s, so similar to the scores given at SC, is right for Brown. The same if you compare him / his scores for these components to Patrick's (SS 9.25, TR 9.18 at last SC). What I don't get is 9.29 in SS and 9.11 in CO for Shoma, but I have already explained it.

 

If you look at the protocols until now, it's also evident, on the contrary, that landing one or more quads don't give you necessarily scores above the 9s in SS, TR and CO: see Alexander Samarin FS at SC (2 quads, from 7.71 to 8.04 > PCS 78.36), Max Aaron FS in CoC (3 quads, from 7.71 to 8.21 > PCS 79.89), Vincent Zhou at CoC (5 quads, from 7.29 to 7.64 > PCS 75.08) and more Boyang Jin (4 quads, from  7.54 to 8.21 > PCS 78.78).

At a first look this could seem right, as the PCS scores should be not so tied with TES, if it was not depending by the reputation and whatever else (if Shoma in some compartments seems to me a little bit overscored, Max and Boyang remain a little bit underscored..).

 

I did tag you in a post but then deleted that section since part of it was probably impossible for the table to show. What the table shows now works for me.

 

So far, I think reputation scoring is more of a concern. What I was trying to get at with the analogy, probably not clear since 1am with a cold is not good, is that if judges have a technical criteria, it should be applied consistently, which is so far not the case. For example, a five quad program with 30 crossovers and 40seconds of 1 ft.skating is a 9 in SS, if a skater falls below that standard then reduce scores. This is being done on some, not on others.

 

If such an objective criteria existed and were applied across the board for what they did in the components section, then I personally can see how TES could be factored into some PCS scores and be justified in doing so. The issue is that if we look at the table fireovertheice gave us, judges do in fact have some form of criteria similar to this, that is being applied selectively based on skater reputation, assuming what is there or not there, not tied necessarily to quad amount. And that is complicating the quads give higher pcs issue. If quads alone gave higher pcs Scores, then if Max Aaron or Boyang used the same transitition stats and crossover count as Yuzu, they should net very high scores in maybe TR and SS, say 9.5. That would be the result if pcs is inflated on quads count consistently. But let's not kid ourselves, we know that they would not, because they are Max Aaron and Boyang, so judges would not give those scores. This is where I wonder if reputation scoring might be the real elephant in the room, more than even the TES inflation.

 

And then I need to see a bunch of 10s in SS for a clean Yuzu at least once this season to feel better....

[katonice]

Jackie mentions here that they will be trying out the new proposed scoring system (with changes in BV and GOE) at the upcoming Tallinn Trophy, albeit it will be done behind closed doors by a separate panel.

Would be really interesting to hear the results, but I doubt they'll share anything.

 

[liv]

It would be very interesting to see the results.... but I agree, doubtful they'd share....

[katonice]

 

[axelsandwich]

15 minutes ago, katonice said:

 

lmao 'TRIPLE AXEL'

/shows 3Lz-3T

[WinForPooh]

19 hours ago, katonice said:

And yeah, the judges probably don't have much time to think about the scores as much as we do.

Max and Angelo also acknowledged the difficulty judges face.

But if it's really becoming a problem, and happening too often and affecting the results of so many competitions, then the ISU should really start doing something about it.

The judging system for synchronised swimming comes to mind sometimes, where there's a separate panel that judges the artistic merits of programs and a separate panel that judges the technical.

I know, easier said than done though (issues with budget, competition length, etc.). It just bothers me a bit that we're giving allowances to judges over something not so trivial and can really impact the outcome of a competition. If it most obviously needs fixing, then well... 

 

If fans with jobs and lives and commitments outside of figure skating can spend this much time analysing programmes between competitions - I mean, look at the effort put in by the ones who have made tables and spreadsheets about them, it's amazing! - then it's more than fair to expect judges to do that homework as well, so that they know what to look for with each skater, at least the top ten, when they are judging and watching live. If they're going to score based on reputation, then they should at least make sure that they have the correct baseline in mind, instead of going based on PR and politics. It's human to have expectations and preconceived ideas of what they're about to see, but it's the judges' job at the very least to make sure that those expectations are based on facts, not spin. That is the minimum we should expect from judges.

[Lyyli]

Don´t know if there is any slightest point in my thoughts but I wouldn´t mind if the number of quads was limited to 2-3 in LP at least for a couple of years. Not only for what happened to Yuzuru yesterday and to Javi and Patrick earlier. Maybe there is no need for that if skaters really enjoy doing 5 quads or more, want to challenge themselves, learn them all, but for me that is just inhuman and hard to believe. Are the quads also too crucial in scoring, do they cause too much pressure and injuries? Do they in general diminish the value of artistry? Could it also be that less and less boys choose FS because of the higher difficulty level and because chances to get on top are more and more only for those few who are able to get top coaching from their early childhood and who are ready and able to train hard and long hours from very young age?

 

 

[Xen]

2 hours ago, Lyyli said:

Don´t know if there is any slightest point in my thoughts but I wouldn´t mind if the number of quads was limited to 2-3 in LP at least for a couple of years. Not only for what happened to Yuzuru yesterday and to Javi and Patrick earlier. Maybe there is no need for that if skaters really enjoy doing 5 quads or more, want to challenge themselves, learn them all, but for me that is just inhuman and hard to believe. Are the quads also too crucial in scoring, do they cause too much pressure and injuries? Do they in general diminish the value of artistry? Could it also be that less and less boys choose FS because of the higher difficulty level and because chances to get on top are more and more only for those few who are able to get top coaching from their early childhood and who are ready and able to train hard and long hours from very young age?

 

 

My thoughts on this? 

1) I don't think limiting the number of quads will do that much. So long as people have to train quads, train any jump in figure skating actually, the danger of physical injury is always there. When I was little, practicing figure skating, I saw a girl hit her head on the ice training a double salchow. She had landed her 2S quite well that season, but that one slip was all it took for them to ship her to the hospital and probably never skate again. She had already stabilized her 2 Lutz by then, but fell on an easier jump. Then again, we usually joked about hitting our chin on the ice when even starting off camel spins, and I've had my fair share of landing on my chest when starting camel spins. I've seen people nearly faceplant when trying spirals too. I've had worse falls practicing footwork than doing jumps-and a rinkmate whose worst falls are practicing spins. Everyone's mileage varies. The ice is slippery, so risks exist regardless of what you do. 

 

2) The issue is not how many quads, but how a skater trains, how good their technique is. Unpopular as this opinion is, not all skaters are going to make it, not due to just injury, but timing, physical build etc, will at some point put a hard cap on how  high you can go on the technical side. But its again, not quads specifically, but just the technical side of figure skating itself that can lead to injury regardless. 

 

3) As for the issue of why people do quads, or any technical jump in general-unfortunately, even under the COP system now, TES and the technical side is the closest we have to an objective way to get points. While we debate about GOEs and technical panel calls all the time, I think we'd have more debates if we reverted to the old 6.0 system, with ordinals, or relied on just PCS scores alone (PCS debates are even more furious, go check out some other known forums for reference). If a skater from a smaller less powerful fed, wanted to score really well, unfortunately TES is the way to go, and naturally the jump BVs will need to go up. Maybe it's a pity, but under the old 6.0 system, such a skater may not even see the light of day. 

 

4) Correlating to the above, reducing the number of quads, but with skaters trying to prove objectively they are top, they may go for riskier quads, packed in the second half, with combos etc, all of which could be even riskier. The theory to why more guys are doing 4Lutz instead of 4Loop, is that 4Loop might actually be harder, but also 4 Lutz has a higher BV. Would re-balancing BV fix this? Maybe, maybe not. But even easier jumps such as a loop also cause other strains to the body (hips, right leg and ankles etc), so even after re-balancing, risks would still exist. 

 

5) Do quads diminish the value of artistry? No-what is diminishing the artistry is how judges have been applying the scoring system. If we look at some of the programs that have been coming out these days under the COP, against the older programs with less quads, I don't know how one could say we've reduced in the number of artistic programs. Figure skating is a combination of tehnical+artistry, and usually the ones who are technically sound have a better shot of delivering on the art (Yuzu, Patrick anyone?). There are plenty of artistic skaters who can perform quads, Yuzu being one of them, Yagudin did pretty well too, Kurt Browning had a quad, Stephane, Oda etc. You can be artistic or not, but it does not matter whether or not you have a quad. 

 

6) Why are there less boys-hmm why indeed. Figure skating is a minority, rather expensive sport. Not even that many girls practice it objectively speaking. There are just more popular sports around-football, baseball, tennis, basketball, hockey that all compete for attention, and are much more approachable than figure skating not due to technical hardness, but just due to price alone. And the diminishing numbers as we get higher up-well it happens in all sports. No matter what sport you do, if you want to do well you just have to put in the hours, bear with the injuries and pain. As for less boys than girls-well, figure skating has an image of a ballerina in tutus spinning on ice, it's viewed as effeminate, which less boys want to be associated with especially in North America. But that's an issue about how we market the sport, and how a culture defines masculinity/femininity than figure skating alone. 

[meoima]

I was reading Jackie Wong’s article about Yuzuru’s injury and that the pain in the right leg might affect his Loop and Lutz and Flip. I think there will be no issue with his Flip since it’s a triple anyway. The 4Lo and 4Lz might be in trouble if his right leg wouldn’t heal in time for him to start practicing them again. 

I think at this rate he will have to ditch the 4lz, not enough time to stabilize it. Hopefully he will get back his 4lo soon. 

[SSS]

4lo and/or 4lz really depends on how long he needs to heal injury. He said his condition was awesome before NHK...Maybe it means 4lz was in great status...

It also depends on what Shoma and Nathan will do...Let's wait...

 

i can't blame the fever anymore... Asthma or fever or flu...Our Zuzu always needs to fight with sickness.

[meoima]

18 minutes ago, SSS said:

4lo and/or 4lz really depends on how long he needs to heal injury. He said his condition was awesome before NHK...Maybe it means 4lz was in great status...

It also depends on what Shoma and Nathan will do...Let's wait...

 

i can't blame the fever anymore... Asthma or fever or flu...Our Zuzu always needs to fight with sickness.

Frankly there is no certainty that other skaters will land the difficult quads cleanly at Olympic either. Just saying Olympic is a very different an difficult beast. People who haven’t experienced it for years don’t get how it’s going. 

And this might sound ironic but maybe this time Plushenko’s comments towards NBC might turn out to be true (again) that 4T and 4S are enough for Yuzuru to win Olympic again. 

I am just saying... of course I hope to see he gets back all his quads cleanly but... there are still some possibilities in which lesser layout actually helps. So I don’t rule out the possibility that Yuzuru will go back to his previous layout and wins Olympic. 

And it would be ironic for all what happened... all those quads and we come back to 4T and 4S because... that’s the Olympic. 

Just I am being funny, don’t take it too seriously. I am sure as long as Yuzuru is healthy he will do all the quads he can.

[SSS]

20 minutes ago, meoima said:

Frankly there is no certainty that other skaters will land the difficult quads cleanly at Olympic either. Just saying Olympic is a very different an difficult beast. People who haven’t experienced it for years don’t get how it’s going. 

And this might sound ironic but maybe this time Plushenko’s comments towards NBC might turn out to be true (again) that 4T and 4S are enough for Yuzuru to win Olympic again. 

I am just saying... of course I hope to see he gets back all his quads cleanly but... there are still some possibilities in which lesser layout actually helps. So I don’t rule out the possibility that Yuzuru will go back to his previous layout and wins Olympic. 

And it would be ironic for all what happened... all those quads and we come back to 4T and 4S because... that’s the Olympic. 

Just I am being funny, don’t take it too seriously. I am sure as long as Yuzuru is healthy he will do all the quads he can.

I know I know...

[moonkat]

24 minutes ago, meoima said:

Frankly there is no certainty that other skaters will land the difficult quads cleanly at Olympic either. Just saying Olympic is a very different an difficult beast. People who haven’t experienced it for years don’t get how it’s going. 

And this might sound ironic but maybe this time Plushenko’s comments towards NBC might turn out to be true (again) that 4T and 4S are enough for Yuzuru to win Olympic again. 

I am just saying... of course I hope to see he gets back all his quads cleanly but... there are still some possibilities in which lesser layout actually helps. So I don’t rule out the possibility that Yuzuru will go back to his previous layout and wins Olympic. 

And it would be ironic for all what happened... all those quads and we come back to 4T and 4S because... that’s the Olympic. 

Just I am being funny, don’t take it too seriously. I am sure as long as Yuzuru is healthy he will do all the quads he can.

 If Yuzuru wins with 4T and 4S, did Plushenko need to be this accurate?

[Elaine]

31 minutes ago, meoima said:

Frankly there is no certainty that other skaters will land the difficult quads cleanly at Olympic either. Just saying Olympic is a very different an difficult beast. People who haven’t experienced it for years don’t get how it’s going. 

And this might sound ironic but maybe this time Plushenko’s comments towards NBC might turn out to be true (again) that 4T and 4S are enough for Yuzuru to win Olympic again. 

I am just saying... of course I hope to see he gets back all his quads cleanly but... there are still some possibilities in which lesser layout actually helps. So I don’t rule out the possibility that Yuzuru will go back to his previous layout and wins Olympic. 

And it would be ironic for all what happened... all those quads and we come back to 4T and 4S because... that’s the Olympic. 

Just I am being funny, don’t take it too seriously. I am sure as long as Yuzuru is healthy he will do all the quads he can.

 

I believe so. He might go back to old layouts at Nat given a relatively short period of recovery; but for Oly, he wants to present the greatest work from himself. TBH at this moment I can only pray for his health status. He can do whatever he would like to do as long as he stays healthy.