General Skating Chat

[Xen]

8 minutes ago, SSS said:

I don't know...this should be flatter

compared to this one

 

That one jump by Shoma has better height, but that distance is tiny. Hmm, I'm not sure how to say it but this time he has more height relative to distance-aka he went up enough, but didn't jump out as much, from the composite.

 

The one I'm thinking of is probably better covered in the image in this post from the-real-xmonster.

And also, Yuzu's jumps usually has a nice, balanced curve-so he gets both up and out. Wow, poor Shoma, why do I always end up stumbling across his jumps for comparison?! The poor boy gets no breaks does he? But anyways, Shoma's jumps usually gives me the impression he gets sufficient distance, like that tumblr post, without the matching height you'd expect; or he gets enough height, but not enough distance for his height, like that 4F composite.  However this doesn't always apply, ie Shoma still has some decent jumps, like his axel, and his 4S is okay too, as is his 4T usually.

 

Anyways, I'm not sure how to say this, but usually Yuzu's jumps height/distance look more balanced: for example the axel below  (credit to 3flip3loop)

*btw, 3flip3loop has some amazing composites of Yuzu's jumps, they're gorgeous images!

But usually you want to see a jump that's fairly proportional in its curvature-it should be both nicely smoothly up and out. Not like it got stretched a bit more in one dimension.

Anyways, I could be objectively wrong too. For jumps, sometimes it's still a bit "feels right/wrong" for me, even though as a skater, it really should not be. T_T

[xeyra]

18 minutes ago, Xen said:

That one jump by Shoma has better height, but that distance is tiny. Hmm, I'm not sure how to say it but this time he has more height relative to distance-aka he went up enough, but didn't jump out as much, from the composite.

 

The one I'm thinking of is probably better covered in the image in this post from the-real-xmonster.

 

Wasn't that composite photoshopped, though? There's a lot of weirdness in the background compared to the other composites you posted, so I'm not sure it's a good example to use. Reminds me a bit of the Japan Openopenopenopen photo. But I think every composite in those Nikkan tech articles were kind of weird, not just this one.

[Xen]

6 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

Wasn't that composite photoshopped, though? There's a lot of weirdness in the background compared to the other composites you posted, so I'm not sure it's a good example to use. Reminds me a bit of the Japan Openopenopenopen photo. But I think every composite in those Nikkan tech articles were kind of weird, not just this one.

Well yes, that one is the weird one that is stretched- but that just makes his 4Loop height issue even worse though in my opinion since it's flat, no matter how you look at it. Long story  short, several of Shoma's jumps just feel "unbalanced" (for lack of a better word) when it comes to its distance/height for me.

 

Reusing 3flip3loop again, have some other composites that are also amazing.

1) Shoma's 3A: yes the angle of the shot is not ideal, but move that curve a bit and it actually looks good. (credit here)

2) And Javi also has a nice height/distance distribution in his, it's pretty nice and balanced: (credit)

 

Did I mention, composite images are awesome?

[CupidsBow]

21 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

I agree with you pretty much completely. I think a lot of people also see Nathan's programs being an improvement as a much greater improvement than it actually is. Shoma to me seems closest to Yuzu in terms of mixing the artistry and technical side, but Boyang seems to be making the most effort, somehow? (Although I watched his FS at Finlandia and I did not like it... but it was wobbly, so it's maybe not fair to judge him on it). And I also half expect him to end up on the podium while everyone's hyping up others. I wonder if Shoma can live with the pressure people around him are putting on him. And Nathan's plan is a big gamble (although, indeed, his only chance for this year).

 

And I want Yuzu and Javi, too. It helps that Javi doesn't care about gold that much, so he'd probably enjoy second more than anyone ^^; And especially if he does retire, it'd be great for them to share that podium.

 

I do think American skating fans in particular got a little bit excited to see Nathan's programs were an improvement choreographically and that the music choices will give possibly be easier for Nathan to skate with some character (his programs last year were lacking in personality, for me at least) which is natural (I would get very excited if suddenly a British skater was showing podium potential) but there is a bit of hyperbole going around 

 

Boyang's heart is certainly in the right place but Finlandia wasn't his best effort. He mentioned not really being 'fired up' there (kinda like how Yuzu was not 'fired up' for ACI FS lol). His seemingly strong desire to improve his PCS and be a more balanced skater means he has a lot of potential in the future. Next olympics should be fun if Boyang and Shoma are still fighting it out then. Esp if Shoma improves his jumps at all...

But I am also not totally sold on Boyang's programs yet. Of the 3, Nathan has maybe done a better job at really selling his programs to the audience. Shoma shows potential for Winter but I'm real meh about Turandot 2.0 (though he is probably taking best dressed this year unless Yuzu comes hard with 2 new costumes at COR, Shoma's FS outfit is beautiful and his winter is...nice. would have more impact if it wasn't a desaturated Loco - but he got those grey velvet pants of sin going on). 

 

I am pretty worried about the pressure possibly getting to Shoma. He seems to be flipping between talking down the Olympics as not being a particular goal for him, he just wants to skate well there, to coming across a bit more ambitious. I would absolutely hate for him to have a Worlds 2016/Nationals moment and cry at the Olympics. 

 

 

Just now, xeyra said:

 

Some things just naturally get changed as you go along, of course. I remember missing the H&L Besti squat Yuzu had at ACI but I think it was gone by NHK (I didn't watch Skate Canada so not sure if it was still there). He just did a spread eagle there instead of a Besti. But in Nathan's case, he's going to have to set up for 6-7 quads and that's not going to be easy and the program will probably have to suffer somewhere for it. I'm still waiting for clean Seimei 2.0 to convince me to love it more than Seimei 1.0, much like I'm still trying to be convinced that Turandot 2.0 can be as good as Turandot 1.0 (better costume, though, A+++ choice there). 

 

Mods: This post mentioned Yuzu, it's on topic! 

 

Of course things always get tweaked (though its a shame when pretty things get left behind. Small tear for backwards crossrolls)

also....see above lol I also think I need to marinate a little more in Seimei the Sequel to get a feel for how it's changed and grown since the first installment. I don;t particularly think it needs to be clean, ACI you could tell his brain was somewhere else and he wasn't in the performance, I have favourite performances for almost every yuzu program and quite a lot of them have at least one fall in them lol I just need to see Seimei 2 - The Revenge performed while Yuzu is mentally present.

 

[xeyra]

12 minutes ago, CupidsBow said:

Of course things always get tweaked (though its a shame when pretty things get left behind. Small tear for backwards crossrolls)

also....see above lol I also think I need to marinate a little more in Seimei the Sequel to get a feel for how it's changed and grown since the first installment. I don;t particularly think it needs to be clean, ACI you could tell his brain was somewhere else and he wasn't in the performance, I have favourite performances for almost every yuzu program and quite a lot of them have at least one fall in them lol I just need to see Seimei 2 - The Revenge performed while Yuzu is mentally present.

 

 

Definitely! I guess clean-ish Seimei 2.0, then.  I just want him to be there and feeling that step sequence.

[xeyra]

I do agree there seems to be very high levels of hyping regarding Nathan's programs, especially from the US fan corners. And I think his SP totally deserves the hype, I kinda really love it. I don't think his FS is quite the end all be all of this season's programs, though (but I quite like his music choice!), but in a season of so many warhorses and repeats, his choices do stand out.

 

Which is a good strategy for him, but it was the only strategy he could have.

 

Repeating a program was just not an option for Nathan. And going with the same kind of musical choices would just remind people too much of his previous season. The direction Nathan has gone in was the absolutely necessary direction for him to go in; he above all other men had to show greater versatility in the Olympic season, to remove the image of last season and to improve his PCS (no matter if Hersh keeps harping about how he's being held back in PCS because his balletic roots means he is super artistic). 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

Removed from gen yuzu thread and reposted here:

 

If Chen and Uno are graded fairly based on their most difficult layouts, as in they get points where they deserve and deductions where they should, I can't help but wonder who would place higher if they both skated clean in the same comp.

 

If we're going by personal preferences though, I would go with Chen, especially after seeing him skate his SP at CoI  and seeing for myself what he is truly capable of artistically when he isn't hampered by setting up for his huge elements, simply cos I prefer his overall style, his jumps, his bigger interpretation capacity and his programs. Well, program. It's just his SP that really made me sit up and see his skating with newfound appreciation this season. So if he's able to not make them both seem super duper empty (which would be such a shame for his SP considering how lovely it is with triples...and there's really only one anomaly in the field who can make their quads look like triples) I'm inclined to root for him over Uno.

 

And speaking of the Bielmann (in that other thread), I find Martinez's one really nice-looking. The best, in fact, out of the very small handful of men doing it now. Really hoping he gets to go to the Olys.

[Murieleirum]

12 minutes ago, xeyra said:

I do agree there seems to be very high levels of hyping regarding Nathan's programs, especially from the US fan corners. And I think his SP totally deserves the hype, I kinda really love it. I don't think his FS is quite the end all be all of this season's programs, though, (but I quite like his music choice!), but in a season of so many warhorses and repeats, his choices do stand out.

 

Which is a good strategy for him, but it was the only strategy he could have.

 

Repeating a program was just not an option for Nathan. And going with the same kind of musical choices would just remind people too much of his previous season. The direction Nathan has gone in was the absolutely necessary direction for him to go in; he above all other men had to show greater versatility in the Olympic season, to remove the image of last season and to improve his PCS (no matter if Hersh keeps harping about how he's being held back in PCS because his balletic roots means he is super artistic). 

 

It's interesting how Nathan couldn't afford to keep old programs, lest his lack of progress in skating skills and transitions be too evident - while Yuzuru takes a SP he already did 3 times and a FS he already perfected and the evolution in skating skills and transitions and depth of interpretation are already evident in his first competition. (At least for the SP LOL)

 

[Sombreuil]

To be fair to Nathan this is only his second season.  Last seasons LP was a good one to start off with - familiar music that was easy to jump to, classical, so a bit of a nod to the ballet background, which reaped rich rewards. He's branching out this season and it will be interesting to see where he goes with it.  I'm not a fan of either his or Shomas landing techniques- N's knees look stiff and jarring to me and S wrenches his knee - both make my knees wince in protest.  I hope they both survive without doing any permanent damage.  I prefer Boyang to either of them, because I perceive him as trying to add transitions etc to his jumping ability, but that may be a false perception as he has less media attention and fewer people talking/explaining/speculating about what he's doing and why.

[xeyra]

13 minutes ago, Sombreuil said:

I prefer Boyang to either of them, because I perceive him as trying to add transitions etc to his jumping ability, but that may be a false perception as he has less media attention and fewer people talking/explaining/speculating about what he's doing and why.

 

Boyang said in his post-Finlandia interview he was focused on improving his programs and not going to add technical upgrades for now, hence his layouts being the same as last season. Which is a really good mindset for him and shows his focus on really working on those areas. The issue is that while I feel his SP will be a great vehicle for that improvement, his FS may not work quite as well. At this point, the music cuts are just too distracting (imho). But I admire Boyang's focus.

[Sombreuil]

Oh I'm with you on that - there was about a page of chat on the team China thread on the subject.  The SP is a bit rough but has lots of room for growth during the season - the music for the FS is just a mess and it's such a lost opportunity- SW/Planets has so much good music and it could have been a really good fit for him but not hashed up and thrown together as it is.  I'm not crazy about the choreo tbh but they didn't have a lot to work with by the time the music arranger had butchered it.

[yuzupon]

Quoting from the other general thread.

 

1 hour ago, xeyra said:

Who was it who said a pairs Team once broke a record at the beginning of the season then in order to maintain consistency they removed some transitions and other details on further outings but their PCS never suffered for it? 

1

 

The pair team who did that was Volosozhar/Trankov, IIRC. They won Gold in Sochi using that strategy. Which shall forever tarnish their victory in my eyes. Not blaming them, just how the whole situation left a bitter taste in my mouth.

 

1 hour ago, Sombreuil said:

What troubles me is the possibility that judges might mentally ' carry over' credit from extra choreo/transitions etc that appear early in then season but aren't actually there on the ice in front of them later when he puts in the quads.  I'm afraid I'm a total cynic about the system.

 

Yeah, the 'carry over' mentality needs to go. Judge what happened on the actual performance. You are not grading students in school, judges. The scores are not 'progress report', and even if they are you are doing it wrong.

[kaeryth]

Late to the party about height+distance of jumps.. I was rewatching some fancams and came across this one from 2013 TEB SP. It has absolutely the best view in terms of height + distance of Yuzu's jumps.

 

 

[Mastyaeva]

5 часов назад, kaeryth сказал:

Late to the party about height+distance of jumps.. I was rewatching some fancams and came across this one from 2013 TEB SP. It has absolutely the best view in terms of height + distance of Yuzu's jumps.

 

 

 You are never late with this. 

[OonsieHui]

5 hours ago, kaeryth said:

Late to the party about height+distance of jumps.. I was rewatching some fancams and came across this one from 2013 TEB SP. It has absolutely the best view in terms of height + distance of Yuzu's jumps.

 

 

 

And to think this was way back in 2013!  His technique and strength has only improved since then, so imagine what they are like now! Wish we had a sideways (?) fancam of H&L Helsinki for comparison!