General Skating Chat

[Xen]

2 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

 

Why does it look like all of Yuzu's favorite jumps (or ones he will add) will be affected the most 

...I think it's time to Yolo that 4F Yuzu. Well actually, now that the BV points are out, I think we'll be seeing a lot more 4F coming up....

[SSS]

10 minutes ago, katonice said:

Someone kindly worked out the proposed percentage changes in BVs for each jump

 

 

7 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

 

Why does it look like all of Yuzu's favorite jumps (or ones he will add) will be affected the most 

Axels need to be highlighted...

We are not blind...

ISU is trying to use the big rule change aka artistic and technical programs to hide the BV conspiracy

[SSS]

1 hour ago, meoima said:

Now I wouldn't be against individual medals for elements, they should have jump competition in which skaters perform solo jumps from single rotation to quad for like 10 times in a row and the guy who gets the highest average score will get the gold.

- Gold for the best lutz technique 

- Gold for the best axel

and so on... gold for the best sit spin, best layback spin... lol

i wouldn't mind. They will have to make a lot of medals though.

ISU won't be happy because probably almost all small medals will go to ...

[Forcefield]

It's alright. Yuzu is going to retire at his peak before they can sabotage him. edit: conspiracy nonsense, yea...maybe

 

Maybe.

 

Weird, I was all up for Yuzu going for another 1-2 years but now I'm good with him ending his reign on a high note whenever and a big FU to ISU for losing their skater with the highest international appeal. Perhaps ISU is actually just trying to make Yuzu and Patrick and Javi fans not miss them so much on the amateur circuit after this quad and olys.

[Lunna]

I'm still wondering why target men's skating when now it's became the most exciting competition? Why not care about backloading in ladies and to rise the value of 3A and quads for them? Why not to raise a jump BV for pairs? The questions are rhetorical obviously.

[Amura365]

3 hours ago, Winnie_20 said:

The man in charge of the ISU knows a lot about media, sponsorship, getting audiences to come etc. IIRC  he made a big deal of all that stuff back when he was candidate. 

I can totally see it now. Watch out, before we know it, we will, in fact, have three *separate* events: athletic, artistic, allround. You wanna experience  it live? You pay three times. And people will, because fans are willing to pay.

 

 

I fear you're on to something. What will they call it? "The ISU Triple A Series?" They don't seem to care about the fans or the skaters just the money and TV sponsors and stuff. I mean shortening the LP to make it easier on TV broadcasters. If that isn't pandering and I don't know what is. If they want to make any changes they need to consult actual skaters and coaches. At this rate the ISU will run figure skating into the ground. One of the key problems is the judging. The right people are winning but bad jumping techniques and pre-rotation aren't being addressed consistently in fact you could say they're being rewarded in some cases.

[Vadrouille]

17 minutes ago, axelnojutsu said:

I still can't figure out who's supposed to be benefitting from all this

I think that the skaters who can jump both quad lutz and quad flips are supposed to benefit from those changes, for example Nathan Chen, Uno. Even if their technic on those jumps are not good, they will do 2 quad lutz and 2 quad flips in LP and get good GOE +3 or +5.

Other skaters like Hanyu or Boyang Jin will not benefit from those changes, because Hanyu does not do quad lutz or quad flip yet, Hanyu does quad toe, sal and loop, and Jin does not do quad flip but he does quad lutz, toe and sal.

I believe that when and if those changes are taking place , in 2022 or after 2022, most of the skaters who are active today will be retired already, especially Yuzuru, so it does not affect him very much. So I don't care very much about figure skating anymore.

Just my little ideas about that.

 

[Dori6886]

11 minutes ago, Forcefield said:

It's alright. Yuzu is going to retire at his peak before they can sabotage him. edit: conspiracy nonsense, yea...maybe

 

Maybe.

 

Weird, I was all up for Yuzu going for another 1-2 years but now I'm good with him ending his reign on a high note whenever and a big FU to ISU for losing their skater with the highest international appeal. Perhaps ISU is actually just trying to make Yuzu and Patrick and Javi fans not miss them so much on the amateur circuit after this quad and olys.

That depends. If he will retire after this season, then changes won't touch him. But if he will decide to stay a little longer, then BV changes will affect him. 

But as a fan of FS in general and not only Yuzu I'm really concerned that they are even considering changes like that instead of take care of the biggest and most glaring problem- judges that don't follow the rules and inconsistent TP calls. 

[meoima]

40 minutes ago, Vadrouille said:

I think that the skaters who can jump both quad lutz and quad flips are supposed to benefit from those changes, for example Nathan Chen, Uno. Even if their technic on those jumps are not good, they will do 2 quad lutz and 2 quad flips in LP and get good GOE +3 or +5.

Other skaters like Hanyu or Boyang Jin will not benefit from those changes, because Hanyu does not do quad lutz or quad flip yet, Hanyu does quad toe, sal and loop, and Jin does not do quad flip but he does quad lutz, toe and sal.

I believe that when and if those changes are taking place , in 2022 or after 2022, most of the skaters who are active today will be retired already, especially Yuzuru, so it does not affect him very much. So I don't care very much about figure skating anymore.

Just my little ideas about that.

 

Shoma Uno doesn't have 4lz, especially from the training video people have seen. Shoma flutz as usual and UR it. Even someone like Jackie Wong who defended Shoma's bad technique many times also calls it as a UR flutz. You don't fix a bad flutz in several weeks. If they're naive to try it out in real competition, I am sure they will get called as they already have great lutz from Boyang and Nathan to compare. 

 

It is safe to say Yuzuru has 4lz in practice because we actually saw him landing it. And his coach even confirmed that. And there's rumors of Yuzuru including 4lz in this season. Yuzuru might even do 4A if he's really into it. So the biggest challenge is the 4F. 

 

it is also safe to say Boyang will have not much doing both 4F and 4Lz because he is a very fast rotator with acceptable take off technique. 

 

As for who will benefit the most from this? Whoever ISU will favor by that time, mostly a Russian or a Canadian or an American.

 

In short, many people are against the proposed BV so we shall see how they will apply it or how will they adjust the scale after the feedback. It's not set in stone yet.

[Fay]

1 hour ago, Pamigena said:

 

I'm sure the French federation still has a couple of cardboard coasters lying around somewhere

 

You grossly overestimate their generosity. 

[Dori6886]

16 minutes ago, Fay said:

 

You grossly overestimate their generosity. 

They need them for TdF!

 

[xeyra]

2 hours ago, Xen said:

2) Has anyone else figured out that weird logic that they're proposing to amend to the +/-5 GOE range? To quote:

"The interval between the scores would be set at 10 percent of the base value, as opposed to the current system, which has no standardized relationship to the base value.

For instance, a +2 on a triple lutz now adds 1.4 to a base value of 6.0, a 23 percent bonus, while a +2 on a quad lutz adds 2.0 to a base value of 13.6, a 14 percent bonus."

 

Those 2 combined makes me think that for all the talk of quads being bad, they're making it very difficult for non-quad skaters to actually catch up on the tech component and could potentially cement the non-quad skaters as never in the top 6.

 

So, out of curiosity, anyone want to do math/excel practices?  I'm curious what this would actually do to the current men's and ladies skaters (think ladies would be even scarier). If we apply the top scores of the top 6 men this season, and do that weird math thingy that Bianchetti is talking about on GOEs, using the new reduced BV system, what kind of results would we get? Would we actually get the balance that they supposedly are striving for, would any weird results come out?

 

Edit: anyone want to take a shot at Jason Brown and Misha Ge's scores too?

 

I wouldn't mind trying to do this but I have no idea what they mean by 'the interval between the scores would be set at 10 percent of the base value'. And also, should we take every +3 given as a +5? Will we even have +5s in the new system or will judges not want to dole those out as often? What will the bullets require for each GOE?

 

Say, for example, the 4T at 9.5. Would +1 GOE mean 0.95 added to the BV (10% of BV), and +5 GOE mean 4.75?

[xeyra]

BTW someone did this, but my math only goes so far and I'm not entirely sure how they came up with the judge scores? Edit: Wait, I got it, they did use the 10% increments like I mentioned. As well as convert every +2 into +3 and every +3 into +5, which I'm not quite sure on though. 

 

Edit 2: On the other hand, in combinations, they counted 10% in GOE only from the first jump in the combo, not the total BV of the combo. Not sure why?

[xeyra]

After comparing to the example above and doing one of my own, I've come to some conclusions:

 

- I'm not sure how they'll use the 10% of BV on GOE increments on combinations and, especially, in second half jumps. The example above only seems to consider BV without the bonus, and in combinations only the BV of the first jump. I don't know why they decided to do that, since I don't remember seeing anything about that in the icenetwork article. 

 

- It's impossible to convert properly the GOE given to skaters at Worlds to the new -5+5 scale because we don't know which bullet points will be required to hit each GOE increment.

 

- If I were to maintain the GOEs of the other elements as they were and then convert every +2 GOE to +3 and every +3 to +4 GOE (and every +1 to +2) obtained in jumps, multiplied them to the increment value, even if using only base values (and not bonus BV) as well as BV only of first jump in combos... as seen in the example above and after doing my own math, Yuzu would still have gotten a similar score than he got at Worlds.... Score would be even higher if the 10% increment was calculated against the total BV of the combo, or against second half bonus.

 

So my belief is judges won't be so generous with +4 and +5 GOEs and this 10% increment is not being used in our examples the way they intend. Otherwise the system will still be broken. 

[EisElle]

1 hour ago, Forcefield said:

Weird, I was all up for Yuzu going for another 1-2 years but now I'm good with him ending his reign on a high note whenever and a big FU to ISU for losing their skater with the highest international appeal. Perhaps ISU is actually just trying to make Yuzu and Patrick and Javi fans not miss them so much on the amateur circuit after this quad and olys.

How considerate of them

2 hours ago, yuzuangel said:

 

Why does it look like all of Yuzu's favorite jumps (or ones he will add) will be affected the most 

Poor 4Lo, I feel it doesn't receive enough love.

The current quad BV are based on those of triples, but a lot of commentators/knovledgeble people stress that edge quadruples are hard because of the absence of toe pick, so tbh it feels very strange to make the difference between 4Lo and 4F larger than it already is (as we know people still can prerotate toe pick jumps, so saying 4Lo is only a 3.5 jump, hence it's easier than 4F that has less prerotation, is totally BS. There have been 3.5 Fips credited as full 4F, too. Tech and judging panels' fault of course. Why would a 4Lo still be that much easier than 4F?).

Before you crush that poor Loop BV at least make sure the scale of value is right for quadruples. Now they have two-three guys or more doing each type of quad (4A aside,of course), can’t they do some of those "computerized bio-mechanical studies" as they did for doubles or that dynamic study they made for 2A and 3A? Just to see what is the real effort different quadruples require comparatively.

And poor Axel too. It's such a unique jump, way way different from the others in technique and I’d say even more challenging mentally too, so that drastic cut in BV for both 3A and 4A is really silly. I suppose ISU may not want skaters to try and kill themself attempting 4A...sure, I so believe that.

51 minutes ago, xeyra said:

Edit 2: On the other hand, in combinations, they counted 10% in GOE only from the first jump in the combo, not the total BV of the combo. Not sure why?

Maybe in analogy to what happens now? iirc currently the factor for GOE is related to the first jump, ie for quad or 3A combos the multiplier is 1.0. Idk if it will be the same for combos in the new system though.