General Yuzuru Chat

[gaia]

21 minutes ago, KendallKlaire said:

I agree that the 2022 Olympics have a great storyline with the Yuzu vs. Nathan plot, it's what the media craves (turning athletes into characters of overdramatized plot). Although we do not know if Yuzu will be going to Olympics, I think it would be very surprising if he is not chosen as the flagbearer (though certainly they may choose an older veteran). Yuzu doesn't seem as determined to be going to the 2022 Olympics as he did for 2018. His goal is the 4A, if he goes to the Olympics he doesn't seem that interested in defending his gold. 

 

Which is why it is going to be so annoying to watch how NBC will narrate the mens event. They will make it the Nathan show. I don't think they will be making any sort of case for Yuzu this time because he's lost to Nathan in every matchup since the last Olympics. In addition, Yuzu has lost to his successor (Yuma) already so they're probably going to treat Yuzu more like a has-been (unless he lands the 4A prior to the Olympics). NBC will not care if Yuzu was injured or if the judging was suspect. 

 

I really don't think the IOC or ISU will care about how judging is perceived. If the media hypes up the Nathan against Yuzu, the non-skating fans will believe it. When I was in graduate school and talking about figure skating, they were absolutely shocked when I said that I did not think Nathan was the best. I do not even think they had heard of Yuzu (and I was in school during the 2018 Olympics). Watching NBC's coverage of the Olympics in 2018 and even now, it's honestly gross how they hype up the frontrunners so much. I do not blame Simone whatsoever at her decision to step back during these Olympics - I felt like it was quite dehumanizing how they simply referred to her as the GOAT all the time.  In any case, the IOC and ISU will not care about how figure skating judging is perceived. They will just think the audience will believe the narrative that is fed to them and in 2022's case the most prominent narrative will be that Nathan is better than Yuzu and will stop him from a third gold. 

ouch, this is hurtful to read.

anyway: thanks god in italy medias don't      ehm, care about fs. this all nc vs yuzu thing will not hurt my poor heart (and morover we will probably have the "fanyu honoris causa" MAx Ambesi commenting on winter olys).I guess I'll have just to stay away from social media for a while and I'll be ok.

cannot stay away from questionable scores though :'(
 

[Yuzuwinnie]

1 hour ago, rockstaryuzu said:

Ditto here, ACI also has its continent with white hair. But they are already fans, so not a new audience. The ISU might want to keep them, but isn't going to attract new fans to this group no matter what they do.

 

Yes, I recognize myself as a "fan in white hair" (and I have more) since I admire the skating in all , that it is peers / women and men in celibacy and dance since the 80s .... 

[river]

3 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

??? Still doesn't make sense. Look at the turn out (or lack thereof) for the US version of Stars on Ice, and they tour the entire country. I think conservative bible-belt types, both men and women, watch football.

Colorado Springs is one of the nerve centers for US figure skating and it’s very conservative. Not too surprising they’re willing to try to capture that demographic.

 

Interestingly, my “conservative bible-belt type” American father watched the men’s FS at worlds this year. Keegan was his favorite, mostly because of his music, but when I told him about his baby on the way and helping raise his brother’s kids he was definitely a fan. Even not knowing anything about skating, he could tell Yuzu was a very good skater having a very bad day. And he wasn’t that impressed with Nathan - he said the jumps were impressive but there was just nothing else there until the end.

[shanshani]

I'd prefer if Yuzu didn't have too much pressure and expectation heaped upon him at Beijing, should he choose to go. Even purely from a competitive perspective, I think going in as an underdog is psychologically easier than going in as the expected winner--something about the idea that it's yours to *lose* I think is really tough to deal with. Plus, Yuzu really doesn't have anything to prove--he's already had an amazingly long lived and decorated senior career, and while winning would be amazing, not winning doesn't really take away from his achievements or his legacy in the sport. Honestly, it's almost like a bonus round.

 

That being said, we do know Yuzu can perform under Olympic pressure, whereas that's still a question mark for Nathan. Yuzu hasn't had a great skate going against him the entire quad for various reasons, and it is interesting that the one time Yuzu killed it in the short and Nate made a mistake, and that was just World's, and a very weird World's at that. Going in as the heavy favorite is by no means a guarantee, as what unfortunately happened with Simone Biles shows. Nathan getting a bunch of media hype might not be all that good for him--it certainly wasn't last time. (Also, I'm pretty sure Patrick Chan was considered a shoo-in for gold at this point in the Sochi quad, lol.) All I'm saying is, Yuzu winning isn't out of the question either, though due to the scoring, it is probably contingent on Nathan making mistakes unless Yuzu lands 4A and the judges finally grow some eyes. Again, it shouldn't be blown up into an expectation or anything, but the Olympic pressure getting to Nathan again while Yuzu puts out two good skates is not a wildly implausible scenario either. 

 

Really, restrained expectations for Yuzu and sky high expectations for Nate is good for Yuzu. 

 

Onto a different topic, I missed the discussion of this earlier, but I just want to say that one thing that really stands out about Yuzu in light of...recent events...is that he has never, ever to my knowledge behaved as though being seen as feminine is bad or shameful. He even once compared himself to onnagata, male actors that play female roles in Kabuki theater. Unfortunately, I think that can actually be a really rare quality in men--even many men who profess belief in gender equality and say they aren't homophobic (because even though gay men can have all sorts of gender expression, feminine man = gay is the stereotype, I guess) recoil or are at least weird or embarrassed about doing things perceived as girly, because somewhere in their minds, they still look down on it or are afraid of seeming gay, even if it's just subconsciously. Whereas Yuzu behaves like there isn't even the remotest question about there being anything wrong about being seen as feminine, nor any question that his female counterparts' athletic achievements are just as worthy of respect as his own. It's far beyond just knowing which words are politically correct to say. There's just such a total lack of misogyny in his behavior which I think is sadly really uncommon anywhere in the world.

[Fay]

37 minutes ago, shanshani said:

I'd prefer if Yuzu didn't have too much pressure and expectation heaped upon him at Beijing, should he choose to go. Even purely from a competitive perspective, I think going in as an underdog is psychologically easier than going in as the expected winner--something about the idea that it's yours to *lose* I think is really tough to deal with. Plus, Yuzu really doesn't have anything to prove--he's already had an amazingly long lived and decorated senior career, and while winning would be amazing, not winning doesn't really take away from his achievements or his legacy in the sport. Honestly, it's almost like a bonus round.

 

That being said, we do know Yuzu can perform under Olympic pressure, whereas that's still a question mark for Nathan. Yuzu hasn't had a great skate going against him the entire quad for various reasons, and it is interesting that the one time Yuzu killed it in the short and Nate made a mistake, and that was just World's, and a very weird World's at that. Going in as the heavy favorite is by no means a guarantee, as what unfortunately happened with Simone Biles shows. Nathan getting a bunch of media hype might not be all that good for him--it certainly wasn't last time. (Also, I'm pretty sure Patrick Chan was considered a shoo-in for gold at this point in the Sochi quad, lol.) All I'm saying is, Yuzu winning isn't out of the question either, though due to the scoring, it is probably contingent on Nathan making mistakes unless Yuzu lands 4A and the judges finally grow some eyes. Again, it shouldn't be blown up into an expectation or anything, but the Olympic pressure getting to Nathan again while Yuzu puts out two good skates is not a wildly implausible scenario either. 

 

Really, restrained expectations for Yuzu and sky high expectations for Nate is good for Yuzu. 

 

Onto a different topic, I missed the discussion of this earlier, but I just want to say that one thing that really stands out about Yuzu in light of...recent events...is that he has never, ever to my knowledge behaved as though being seen as feminine is bad or shameful. He even once compared himself to onnagata, male actors that play female roles in Kabuki theater. Unfortunately, I think that can actually be a really rare quality in men--even many men who profess belief in gender equality and say they aren't homophobic (because even though gay men can have all sorts of gender expression, feminine man = gay is the stereotype, I guess) recoil or are at least weird or embarrassed about doing things perceived as girly, because somewhere in their minds, they still look down on it or are afraid of seeming gay, even if it's just subconsciously. Whereas Yuzu behaves like there isn't even the remotest question about there being anything wrong about being seen as feminine, nor any question that his female counterparts' athletic achievements are just as worthy of respect as his own. It's far beyond just knowing which words are politically correct to say. There's just such a total lack of misogyny in his behavior which I think is sadly really uncommon anywhere in the world.

I agree about Yuzu and femininity. But then I wanted to ask whether you ever read this - a great analysis of why Yuzu might not be so shy of his own “feminine” aspect? 
https://doramaticbites.tumblr.com/post/171551859613/to-the-japanese-hanyu-may-not-be-gnc

[shanshani]

19 minutes ago, Fay said:

I agree about Yuzu and femininity. But then I wanted to ask whether you ever read this - a great analysis of why Yuzu might not be so shy of his own “feminine” aspect? 
https://doramaticbites.tumblr.com/post/171551859613/to-the-japanese-hanyu-may-not-be-gnc

I'm not Japanese, but I am East Asian, and I agree that it's more accepted for men to show feminine aspects than it would be in, say, America, and I wouldn't call him gender non-conforming exactly, but I still think Yuzu is a bit unusual. Maybe Japan is genuinely different, but in China, there is still a loud contingent that looks down upon "feminine"-seeming men, and I've seen celebrities with "flower boy" (more androgynous/feminine) type looks that are popular precisely because of those looks still get visibly uncomfortable with being seen as too feminine. I'd also point out that other Japanese male skaters (or even East Asian male skaters) don't dress like Yuzu. They might wear flashier costumes than their North American counterparts, but they're still usually comfortably in the masculine or non-gendered part of the clothing spectrum. No one else is wearing sakura fairy-like costumes. So the post is right to say that there's more room for men to express feminine aspects as part of artistic performance, and that's one big reason why Yuzu doesn't face much stigma for his costume and program choices and doesn't read as gender-subversive the way he would in North America, but I still think that it takes a lot of strength of character--or plain immunity to misogyny--for a man to portray femininity to the extent he does even in his social context. 

[CaroSkate]

Sorry for my English but I'd like to share my own personal experience.

 

I don't like it when people say a person "acts like a woman/man". Some of my male colleagues like telling me that I "think like a man despite being a woman because I am independent, rational and good at maths". They talk about how women think and behave irrationally. When I disagree, they say that I act like a man so I don't count. However, when I don't do something well enough, they "comfort" me by saying that "it is normal for women to lack confidence". They don't see themselves as misogynists as women have the same salary level and promotion opportunities as men (as far as I know), but this kind of microaggression is frustrating.

 

It may be true that statistically, men prefer certain things while women prefer the others, which leads to terms like "feminine/masculine", but there isn't any "standard of men's or women's behaviours". You don't have to "follow the standard" to be a "true man/woman". All male skaters "skate like men" because they are men. When they show bravery and mental toughness, it is not because they are men, just because they are brave and mentally tough.

[rockstaryuzu]

2 hours ago, river said:

And he wasn’t that impressed with Nathan - he said the jumps were impressive but there was just nothing else there until the end.

And that's always going to hold true for any skater who makes the mistake of thinking that a program doesn't have to be a total package of artistry and technique together. 

[rockstaryuzu]

1 hour ago, Fay said:

I agree about Yuzu and femininity. But then I wanted to ask whether you ever read this - a great analysis of why Yuzu might not be so shy of his own “feminine” aspect? 
https://doramaticbites.tumblr.com/post/171551859613/to-the-japanese-hanyu-may-not-be-gnc

An extremely good point, and one I have long thought to be true in regards to Yuzu. Cultural differences matter in this aspect. 

[ZuCritter]

Without wading into the discussion of how various cultures conceptualize and/or enforce gender roles, I've long suspected that Yuzu uses the whimsical, "cute" side of his persona (the Space Kitty side) to mask the more alpha, ultra-competitive side. I think he's naturally playful, but it seems that he shifts into that mode partly to "soften" his image and obscure the fierceness of his drive to win. I don't know enough to speculate about whether that tendency -- if I'm correct that it exists -- might reflect Japanese cultural expectations. But the interplay of those contrasting faces, which we've discussed here before, is one of the things that makes him so fascinating. 

 

 

[rockstaryuzu]

46 minutes ago, CaroSkate said:

Sorry for my English but I'd like to share my own personal experience.

 

I don't like it when people say a person "acts like a woman/man". Some of my male colleagues like telling me that I "think like a man despite being a woman because I am independent, rational and good at maths". They talk about how women think and behave irrationally. When I disagree, they say that I act like a man so I don't count. However, when I don't do something well enough, they "comfort" me by saying that "it is normal for women to lack confidence". They don't see themselves as misogynists as women have the same salary level and promotion opportunities as men (as far as I know), but this kind of microaggression is frustrating.

 

It may be true that statistically, men prefer certain things while women prefer the others, which leads to terms like "feminine/masculine", but there isn't any "standard of men's or women's behaviours". You don't have to "follow the standard" to be a "true man/woman". All male skaters "skate like men" because they are men. When they show bravery and mental toughness, it is not because they are men, just because they are brave and mentally tough.

Well said! I'd add to that,  that the more loudly someone points out things that are against this or that gender stereotype, the more they're actually reinforcing that stereotype. 

 

So may be it's better to just let people have their unique gender expression without making any comment of any kind. 

[Umebachi]

Just watching the Olympics dressage freestyle on Japanese satellite Channel (BS Green channel グリーンチャンネル). The Japanese commentators at the start of the competition was explaining how they set the order saying “it’s just like the Free Program for figure skating - top ranking competitors are grouped into categories, with highest performers at the end, randomly selected within each group!”

 

 I wish one of them would perform to Seimei. Perhaps one day…. Japanese dressage will take another decade to get to this level but my hope is that Tokyo Olympics will raise the profile.  Yuzu could pick up dressage. The he can perform well into his 70s like Mr Hoketsu. Freestyle is like Figure skating, judged on technical and artistic merits.  Plus they have judges spread out on 7 points around the ring!! Unlike FS sadly…

[ZuCritter]

48 minutes ago, Umebachi said:

Just watching the Olympics dressage freestyle on Japanese satellite Channel (BS Green channel グリーンチャンネル). The Japanese commentators at the start of the competition was explaining how they set the order saying “it’s just like the Free Program for figure skating - top ranking competitors are grouped into categories, with highest performers at the end, randomly selected within each group!”

 

 I wish one of them would perform to Seimei. Perhaps one day…. Japanese dressage will take another decade to get to this level but my hope is that Tokyo Olympics will raise the profile.  Yuzu could pick up dressage. The he can perform well into his 70s like Mr Hoketsu. Freestyle is like Figure skating, judged on technical and artistic merits.  Plus they have judges spread out on 7 points around the ring!! Unlike FS sadly…

Yuzu on a gorgeous steed: something I would definitely pay to see!!!!!

[Whoopiewoop]

1 hour ago, Umebachi said:

 

 I wish one of them would perform to Seimei.

wait, the music is chosen my the “rider”? Just yesterday I was mentioning to my colleagues that while watching dressage they were playing music that sounded as if it were coming straight out of a cliched erotic movie from the 80’s or soap opera from the 90’s  It was weird.

[Yuzurella]

7 hours ago, KendallKlaire said:

I agree that the 2022 Olympics have a great storyline with the Yuzu vs. Nathan plot, it's what the media craves (turning athletes into characters of overdramatized plot). Although we do not know if Yuzu will be going to Olympics, I think it would be very surprising if he is not chosen as the flagbearer (though certainly they may choose an older veteran). Yuzu doesn't seem as determined to be going to the 2022 Olympics as he did for 2018. His goal is the 4A, if he goes to the Olympics he doesn't seem that interested in defending his gold. 

 

Which is why it is going to be so annoying to watch how NBC will narrate the mens event. They will make it the Nathan show. I don't think they will be making any sort of case for Yuzu this time because he's lost to Nathan in every matchup since the last Olympics. In addition, Yuzu has lost to his successor (Yuma) already so they're probably going to treat Yuzu more like a has-been (unless he lands the 4A prior to the Olympics). NBC will not care if Yuzu was injured or if the judging was suspect. 

 

I really don't think the IOC or ISU will care about how judging is perceived. If the media hypes up the Nathan against Yuzu, the non-skating fans will believe it. When I was in graduate school and talking about figure skating, they were absolutely shocked when I said that I did not think Nathan was the best. I do not even think they had heard of Yuzu (and I was in school during the 2018 Olympics). Watching NBC's coverage of the Olympics in 2018 and even now, it's honestly gross how they hype up the frontrunners so much. I do not blame Simone whatsoever at her decision to step back during these Olympics - I felt like it was quite dehumanizing how they simply referred to her as the GOAT all the time.  In any case, the IOC and ISU will not care about how figure skating judging is perceived. They will just think the audience will believe the narrative that is fed to them and in 2022's case the most prominent narrative will be that Nathan is better than Yuzu and will stop him from a third gold. 

 

Until the Olympics, the US media, US fed and ISU will definitely continue to hype Nathan as the next Olympic champion even more than before. In the last few years, they've been constantly building the narrative of Nathan being the new dominating man in figure skating, unbeatable, blah, blah, blah... while at the same time diminishing Yuzu and his achievements, presenting him as the "has been" as well as more or less ignoring other good skaters.

 

I think international media will probably focus on the "rivalry" aspect between Yuzu and Nathan since the media always love drama and rivalries. Some of them might tend to see Nathan as the favorite to win because he's younger and has been winning the big competitions in the last few years.

 

I believe these scenarios could actually work in favor of Yuzu. Whenever he was asked about the Beijing Olympics in the last couple of years, Yuzu has always stated clearly that his goal is to land the 4A. He never said once that he dreams of winning his third Olympic gold medal or speculated about that in any way.

 

I think he's so smart to do this. By doing this, he deflected the pressure away from himself and could focus on his own goals and do his own thing. Besides, he's already won two Olympic gold medals. He has absolutely nothing to prove. I do believe that one of the main reasons why he started to focus on his own goals rather than winning competitions is of course the absolute unfair scoring he has had to suffer in the last couple of years. But as it is often the case in life, this might actually be a blessing in disguise.

 

The pressure is definitely on Nathan to deliver and win the gold medal in Beijing. For the US media, US fed and the ISU, he's not only the favorite, he's simply expected to win. They've worked hard to roll out the red carpet for him the last couple of years. They expect him to walk in and claim the gold medal for them.

 

But fact is, there is still half a year to go until the Olympics. And who knows what might happen until then. Who knows if the Olympics will even take place then considering the Covid 19 situation in the world right now.

 

And even if everything goes ahead as planned, there will still be a competition. Nathan will still have to deliver. And just because the narrative around him is about him basically being the certain champion, him being unbeatable and him being able to deliver when it counts, he will have to deliver under enormous pressure. In his last big comps it might have looked like he was able to withstand the pressure. But the fact that he did win the last big comps actually even adds to the pressure on him. And the Olympics are always a different beast. This is when the world outside of this small figure skating circle actually realizes there is such a thing. Everything is extremely magnified. That means even more pressure, even more scrutiny and even more at stake.

 

When it comes to Yuzu, he has diverted a lot of pressure from himself because he's focusing on his own goal of attaining the 4A. He has nothing left to prove, not to himself and certainly not to the world. Who knows, not being seen as the number one favorite by the media and such might actually give him more space to show his best skating and performances yet.