The GOAT debate

[rockstaryuzu]

 

1 hour ago, Old Cat Lady said:

. In tennis and gymnastics, I think there is a lot of GOAT debates. Don't know much about other sports but I imagine with a lot of other sports there's less talk just because women in the sport don't have as much tradition as the men?

There's something to that. Tennis and gymnastics both have a much longer tradition of accepting and celebrating female excellence alongside and equally with male athletes. I'll talk about swimming again because it's the sport I know best, and in swimming, while there are a lot of great women athletes, the G.O.A.T. title just doesn't even start to get mentioned unless you're talking about people who've dominated an event for multiple Olympics ( like Janet Evans) or are heroic, history-making long-distance  swimmers, like the first woman to swim the English Channel and so forth ( and even among them, there's a G.O.A.T. of G.O.A.Ts now, since there are a couple of women who've swim nearly every major long-distance crossing you could do). My point being, women athletes have to be uber-extraordinary before the GOAT thing enters the conversation. Most female skaters simply don't stick around the sport long enough to get there. 

 

Edited to add: I'm not sure how to move this post to the GOAT thread ...help? 

[rockstaryuzu]

30 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

Interesting point about the American media touting Kwan particularly as the GOAT.

This is going to sound terrible, but what I remember about Kwan is that she was the girl who came second to Tara Lipinski at the Olympics. Like seriously, I just looked her up on Wikipedia and I had no idea she had five World titles, Olympic silver and Olympic bronze. Yet I wouldn't think of her as a GOAT, even though she ticks most of the boxes.

 

Guess I've just proved to myself that having Olympic gold is a requirement for becoming the GOAT.

[anski]

I don’t know enough about Button apart from the fact he was such a trailblazer so I won’t comment on him. 

 

I would put both Yagudin and Plush as GOATs from the noughties era because they are both complete skaters in the sense they have great artistry and technique (although Yags leaning more towards artistry and Plush more towards technique imho).

Currently i think there’s no doubt Yuzuru is the GOAT although I want to flag up Javi as a complete skater as well who achieved an insane amount while coming from a tiny federation.

 

From women, altho she’s very talented, I wouldn’t pick Kwan as the GOAT. I would think of Yuna Kim or Katarina Witt.

 

Pairs, undoubtedly Gordeeva and Grinkov, and recently Sui/Han.

[Henni147]

As I mentioned in the Yuzu Chat, for me a GOAT incorporates three key aspects: master, ambassador and hero. It's important to dominate your era and master all aspects of your sport, but that alone doesn't make you a GOAT. You have to sell your excellence to the audience (create 'magic moments'), make the world remember your achievements and the sport prosper in the future.

 

The greatest athletes in the world were not only sublime technicians but great entertainers at the same time. I always have to remember Usain Bolt in Beijing 2008, where he did not just win and break the world record over 100m, but even had the time to look around and celebrate at the 80m mark. That was insane. Gatlin and Coleman may beat him at his final world championships in London, but Bolt is still the icon of athletics.

Ronnie 'The Rocket' O'Sullivan won his last world title in 2013, but he is still celebrated as the indisputable GOAT of Snooker and the biggest magnet of the sport. His super fast and precise matchplay has no equal and he's the most entertaining player in the business. However, I do not appreciate his scandalous behavior (calling other players 'numpties', insulting the referees, playing in socks, revolting against the prize money...). A GOAT should be a role model, especially in a gentlemen's sport and he is not.

 

 

In figure skating Yuzu has a GOAT status for me, because he incorporates every aspect mentioned above: athletic and artistic quality, unforgettable and inspiring performances, entertainment factor and sportsmanship. 

I do believe that Yuzu could podium in any kind of judging system, no matter where the focus is: jumps, spins, skating skills, performance, total package. He might not be on top everywhere, but he would be among the top favorites for sure.

Let's have a look at the past rivalries: 1. Yuzu vs Patrick 2. Yuzu vs Javi 3. Yuzu vs Nathan. Yuzu was involved in every big battle of the last six years and the interesting thing is that his rivals had totally different strengths: skating skills, performance and jumps. Yuzu could beat them all and that makes him extra special in his era.

[ralucutzagy]

27 minutes ago, Henni147 said:

As I mentioned in the Yuzu Chat, for me a GOAT incorporates three key aspects: master, ambassador and hero. It's important to dominate your era and master all aspects of your sport, but that alone doesn't make you a GOAT. You have to sell your excellence to the audience (create 'magic moments'), make the world remember your achievements and the sport prosper in the future.

 

The greatest athletes in the world were not only sublime technicians but great entertainers at the same time. I always have to remember Usain Bolt in Beijing 2008, where he did not just win and break the world record over 100m, but even had the time to look around and celebrate at the 80m mark. That was insane. Gatlin and Coleman may beat him at his final world championships in London, but Bolt is still the icon of athletics.

Ronnie 'The Rocket' O'Sullivan won his last world title in 2013, but he is still celebrated as the indisputable GOAT of Snooker and the biggest magnet of the sport. His super fast and precise matchplay has no equal and he's the most entertaining player in the business. However, I do not appreciate his scandalous behavior (calling other players 'numpties', insulting the referees, playing in socks, revolting against the prize money...). A GOAT should be a role model, especially in a gentlemen's sport and he is not.

 

 

In figure skating Yuzu has a GOAT status for me, because he incorporates every aspect mentioned above: athletic and artistic quality, unforgettable and inspiring performances, entertainment factor and sportsmanship. 

I do believe that Yuzu could podium in any kind of judging system, no matter where the focus is: jumps, spins, skating skills, performance, total package. He might not be on top everywhere, but he would be among the top favorites for sure.

Let's have a look at the past rivalries: 1. Yuzu vs Patrick 2. Yuzu vs Javi 3. Yuzu vs Nathan. Yuzu was involved in every big battle of the last six years and the interesting thing is that his rivals had totally different strengths: skating skills, performance and jumps. Yuzu could beat them all and that makes him extra special in his era.

I totally agree with you, Roger Federer is the GOAT in tennis IMHO! You must have that special something that makes you attract audience, excellence in your sport aside! Yuzu has it, Yuna Kim had it,  Roger has it and there aren't too many out there like them. Complete package, indeed!

[micaelis]

12 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

My thoughts on this are as follows: the feats and achievements help establish G.O.A.T. status, but by themselves they are not what makes a G.O.A.T. It's the whole person, the whole package, the background story, everything. It's the longevity in a sport but it's also the passionate engagement in it. It's the ability to take the sport somewhere it's never gone before. It's about being better than everyone else but by doing something new and innovative. I think Yuzu ticks all these boxes. To dredge up an example from another sport, compare Mark Spitz and Michael Phelps. Before Phelps, people would have said Spitz was the G.O.A.T. of swimming - he won seven medals at one Olympics and it took years, decades, for people to beat his records and surpass him. But Phelps swam and competed at the top level for nearly two decades, attending 5 Olympics and medalling at 4 of them- a nearly unprecedented run (most swimmers last about 3 or 4 years at the elite level, BTW). Along the way he had some serious ups and downs in life (arrested for smoking weed, come on!). but came back stronger and emerged victorious after each one. IMO that's what makes a G.O.A.T. - someone who wins at sport and in life, no matter what crap life throws at them. That's why Yuzu is now, and might always be, the G.O.A.T. It's everything about him, not just the skating, that earns him the title. 

I couldn't have said it better.  The GOAT is not simply the one with the most medals and the most records.  It's the biography that goes with it, the accounting of the struggles encountered and overcome, the history of the engagement with the fans,  Citing Michael Phelps is very apropos,  He remade the record books but also his struggles overcoming the mistakes of a retirement by coming out of it and continuing on his winning ways - those mark him as a GOAT.  My feeling is that he's the odds-on favorite to light the torch at the 2028 Games in Los Angeles.  Two other GOATs also come to mind - Wayne Gretzky, who still owns the hockey record book and has a biography that includes raising a family and being a symbol of the well-lived life.  Another is Babe Ruth, a baseball player, most of whose records are now broken, but they are his batting records,  The fact is that Babe Ruth also has a stellar record of achievements as a pitcher.  That combination will never again be seen in baseball.  The thing we have to remember is that not all sports have GOATs,  Tennis, for instance, lacks such for both men and women.  Golf is the same way, although there are currently two strong candidates - Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer.  The thing is that those who have GOAT status have it because in one way or another they define their sport in all its aspects.  That Yuzu has done and that nobody else currently skating is even close to doing.

[IULIANA]

I am not going to persist in keeping the GOAT theme discussion here, nor am I eager to develop it in the special thread, but I am quite surprised that Yuna Kim was never mentioned, not even as a passer by . God, no female skater, even those who, thank to the interpretation of the judging system (euphemistically speaking) managed to break her records, but never her magical performances, was able to match her. Or it is just me...

[hoodie axel]

1 hour ago, IULIANA said:

but I am quite surprised that Yuna Kim was never mentioned, not even as a passer by .

As the overall GOAT of the sport? I actually think Kwan is the overall GOAT of the sport for singles, and that a lot of women would rank higher than men for me.

[yuzuangel]

2 hours ago, IULIANA said:

I am not going to persist in keeping the GOAT theme discussion here, nor am I eager to develop it in the special thread, but I am quite surprised that Yuna Kim was never mentioned, not even as a passer by . God, no female skater, even those who, thank to the interpretation of the judging system (euphemistically speaking) managed to break her records, but never her magical performances, was able to match her. Or it is just me...

Not just you 

[enno0287]

12 hours ago, IULIANA said:

I am not going to persist in keeping the GOAT theme discussion here, nor am I eager to develop it in the special thread, but I am quite surprised that Yuna Kim was never mentioned, not even as a passer by . God, no female skater, even those who, thank to the interpretation of the judging system (euphemistically speaking) managed to break her records, but never her magical performances, was able to match her. Or it is just me...

I share your sentiment tbh. 

I mean, Med might have Yuna's record but there's no way her performance could ever match up Yuna's.

Technique wise, even artistry wise, Yuna is way above Med. 

[yuzuangel]

57 minutes ago, enno0287 said:

 

Technique wise, even artistry wise, Yuna is way above Med. 

Yup, and tbh without an OGM (yet) I think there is no way Med could be considered the GOAT right now. Even less so with various flaws in her skating, like her technique. It's not just about medals and it's certainly not about scores.

 

I also think that without OGM, a skater cannot be the GOAT (but can be one of the GOATs although it's a very subjective title anyway). In the case of Michelle, especially in 2002, the OGM was within her reach and she did not have the mental fortitude to claim it due to her own mistakes. That is the difference between someone like Michelle and someone like Yuna, who always rose to the occasion. 

 

One could say that Sonja Henie is the GOAT because she basically invented the sport. I think someone who invented the basics of the sport (the father/mother of figure skating?) is distinct from someone who is the greatest skater of all time. 

[Old Cat Lady]

I should clarify that when I said that Michelle Kwan got discussed as GOAT, it was more a fan thing than a media thing and it was when her career was still active and the Olympics were still a possibility.  I think in the US, most people consider the Olympic singles gold to be essential for GOAT candidate.  Though I think sometimes people would intimate that she could become the GOAT - I remember when Peggy Fleming was doing one of those commentary intros, she talked about how Michelle Kwan was an important figure while Tara became a "blip on the radar".

 

I think the dichotomy of the sport also affects how people rank the GOAT candidates.  Sport is judged very differently than art and leaning more one way or the other (or in hoodie's case, neither), can produce 2 completely different, though valid in their own way, lists.  

 

For me, ISU competition is sport first.  We all know that for those who are actually competitive for titles, artistic sacrifices are made to garner points, if the skater even has an artistic point of view in the first place.  I think most skaters just do what is expected of them in order to place as high as they are able rather than trying to make any sort of artistic statement.  As such, I hold skating to the same standards as other sports and in every sport, the competitive results are the primary, but not sole, determiner of GOAT status but everyone who is considered a GOAT candidate also has the biggest titles in the sport.  I also agree with rockstaryuzuru in that, one of the biggest determiners of GOAT is how many people agree that you're the GOAT - after all, it is an artificial fan anointed title, no matter what sort of logic we try to bring to it.

 

I agree that there should also be a differentiation between eras.  I don't think it has to be as drastic as between generations, which for sports is not very long, but certainly between major changes to the sport.  It's pretty much a different sport since figures was devalued and then eliminated.  

[hoodie axel]

4 hours ago, Old Cat Lady said:

(or in hoodie's case, neither)

 

4 hours ago, Old Cat Lady said:

  I also agree with rockstaryuzuru in that, one of the biggest determiners of GOAT is how many people agree that you're the GOAT - after all, it is an artificial fan anointed title, no matter what sort of logic we try to bring to it.

I agree it's an artificial title, and it really doesn't matter who's GOAT, but... hard disagree on popularity determining GOAT.

[rockstaryuzu]

On 4/28/2019 at 12:02 PM, hoodie axel said:

I agree it's an artificial title, and it really doesn't matter who's GOAT, but... hard disagree on popularity determining GOAT.

Popularity isn't what I meant by having many people agree that you're the GOAT, though. What I meant is that in order to be the GOAT, whatever skill, talent, or genius has to be obvious to a reasonably large number of people, from a wide variety of viewpoints on whatever discipline you're in, and that those people would rank your skill, talent, or genius as better than all your competitors. I mean, Jason Brown is popular but he'll never be the GOAT.  Plushy is often controversial and not necessarily popular but there are many who would consider him the GOAT. 

 

 

[hoodie axel]

2 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

What I meant is that in order to be the GOAT, whatever skill, talent, or genius has to be obvious to a reasonably large number of people, from a wide variety of viewpoints on whatever discipline you're in, and that those people would rank your skill, talent, or genius as better than all your competitors.

I got that and maybe I shouldn't have said "popularity", but I still wouldn't agree. If we are just talking about that person's competitors, I would use the term "Greatest of This/That Time" instead, and I wouldn't set much store by the opinions of people who've not proved to know much about the sport or its history, as happens nowadays in various articles and several vocal factions. It's too hard to determine "the" GOAT across different eras, anyway, IMO.