Team China

[WinForPooh]

I'm just here to scream, once again, 'Justice for Han Yan!!!!'

[ralucutzagy]

[Eclair]

10 hours ago, salty said:

Boyang has had incredibly stellar senior seasons since he debuted, tbh, even without Saint Orser. I dont think it's fair to assume he's out of OGM contention because he's staying with the coaches that have provided him with unprecedented success for a Chinese singles skater. (im bringing a lot of things i saw being discussed in The Other Place because im kinda banned from there or whatever) but the biggest gripe coming from there and @Eclair is that he'll never be as good as he coulda been if he'd gone to TCC, but i dont think it's any of our places as people who couldn't be further away from being ELITE ATHLETES to judge what's best for Boyang or to say which training place is objectively better.

 

I think it's hugely disrespectful to assume he'll never get great results with these coaches who have proven that they are committed to evolving Boyang, as evidenced by his clear progression in skills since his senior debut.

I never said he will never improve with his old coaches. In fact I specifically said, he will improve but not as fast in SS as under Tracy. That is reality. Just because we all like and appreciate Boyangs old coaches doesn't mean they can do magic and suddenly become good SS coaches or help him get a PCS cushion. And I think it is disrespectful of you to assume what TCC does is so easy everyone could do it. So yes, declining to go to TCC will have impact on his PCS. Like it or not but Brian's students gets a PCS cushion compared to his old coaches. And of course it is my place to say that TCC is objectively better. Because it is. Since he doesn't want to go, obviously not for him then, but for anyone who wants to go - if they had the choice between TCC and Boyangs old coaches, TCC would be the bette option. 

[SparkleSalad]

 

[salty]

2 hours ago, Eclair said:

 And of course it is my place to say that TCC is objectively better. Because it is. Since he doesn't want to go, obviously not for him then, but for anyone who wants to go - if they had the choice between TCC and Boyangs old coaches, TCC would be the bette option. 

 

and that's your opinion actually. because it's not objectively better for Boyang, obviously, or else he would've gone  you're acting like he's some dumb kid who can't make good decisions for himself when in fact have you ever met him? have you met brian and tracy? have you been to TCC? Have you met Boyang's coaches? Or seen his training facility? I doubt it, so actually there's no way you can say with such certainty that TCC is the better option for him, just like i cant say for sure it wouldn't be. the bottom line is we are not Boyang Jin, we do not owe him anything, we have no right. we can certainly be disappointed in his decisions but being outraged is going a little far i think

 

edit: there's more to being an elite skater than just developing good skating skills; so okay Boyang goes to canada and he gets better SS and different packaging. but in the process he loses his consistency and becomes a basket case because he's in a foreign country where not even his coaches speak his language. you've got to be made of stardust to be able to be that strong to move across the world and make your family sacrifice everything just to get better skating skills and better choreography. im not saying this reality would happen but it's just as likely as boyang going to TCC and everything being peachy for him

[ralucutzagy]

[hoodie axel]

35 minutes ago, ralucutzagy said:

LOL so he got it anyway.

[cirelle]

You know, before coming here and reading about the face-saving etc I assumed Brian and Tracy went there to get that sweet Chinese money. Like so many A-list movie stars do on the regular. Tho if the economic situation is more ’we got the money for Boyang, now we gotta use it’ the A-list analogy is really not a good one. 

[Eclair]

9 hours ago, salty said:

 

and that's your opinion actually. because it's not objectively better for Boyang, obviously, or else he would've gone  you're acting like he's some dumb kid who can't make good decisions for himself when in fact have you ever met him? have you met brian and tracy? have you been to TCC? Have you met Boyang's coaches? Or seen his training facility? I doubt it, so actually there's no way you can say with such certainty that TCC is the better option for him, just like i cant say for sure it wouldn't be. the bottom line is we are not Boyang Jin, we do not owe him anything, we have no right. we can certainly be disappointed in his decisions but being outraged is going a little far i think

 

edit: there's more to being an elite skater than just developing good skating skills; so okay Boyang goes to canada and he gets better SS and different packaging. but in the process he loses his consistency and becomes a basket case because he's in a foreign country where not even his coaches speak his language. you've got to be made of stardust to be able to be that strong to move across the world and make your family sacrifice everything just to get better skating skills and better choreography. im not saying this reality would happen but it's just as likely as boyang going to TCC and everything being peachy for him

and you seem to have a reading comprehension problem. he doesn't want to go = it subjectively isn't better in his eyes.And as I said multiple times - since he doesn't want to go, it wouldn't be better, but TCC is just objectively the better training place, especially for his weak points. And if you don't want to see that, then you're just wrong. and yes, if his only reason why he doesn't want to go is homesickness, then he is indeed acting like a child and will have to live with the resulting consequences. and as I also said multiple times, if there is another reason for it (sick parent etc.) then its another matter. But if you're going out of your way to attack for what I wrote on another forum, you should at least summarize my points right. 

[Pamigena]

I just hope his "defiance" doesn't come back to bite him in the ass at some point, and not only in a "he may not improve enough under his old team " kind of way. From how I understand the system in China, if you get full funding, they pretty much own your ass. We saw how it went with the whole pairs switch drama. I do wonder how many athletes looked at that "we respected Boyang's wishes" bit and went  because their wishes always got filed under "things that don't matter at all". Boyang has some leverage since he's their best bet to get actual results in the men's field but, eh, picking a very public and kinda messy fight with an institution that has this kind of power over your (professional) life... I hope for him that he didn't piss off the wrong people.

[Yatagarasu]

Easy folks. 

 

Emotions are running high because everyone wants what is best for Boyang. When TCC was announced as a possibility one thing we could agree on was that it was a fantastic opportunity and so many were super excited over it because of that. Now that he isn't going, all that emotion went different ways but it was bound to happen. It'll settle down, for all of us. 

 

About TCC - Nanami Abe pushed Yuzuru to go for a reason. Athletes do outgrow their training environments. Many leave to get better training, and end up living quite far away from home. In this season alone we have Zhenya, Marin, Eunsoo (these two are minors, for example) etc or Yuzuru, Javier, Mao, Yu na, or in ID almost the whole of Montreal  etc. This is actually a pretty common thing in skating. And somewhat reflective of the issue we have of too few training centers but that's another story.

 

When it comes to Boyang's particular current training environment, TCC is better, objectively. 

From the facilities, to the coaching team, to the reputation they have and would bring with themselves. This is something Boyang's current training place in China cannot match. His biggest problem, his SS, are not going to find a solution there that they could have found at TCC. He also isn't going to get the reputation boost he would have gotten at TCC. It will just continue as it has been more or less and while he will improve, it's fine to think just how much more it could have been at TCC. Another positive here is that he would have been much closer to Lori and working with your choreographer on that program is always good.

 

Now, in terms of Boyang himself. Yes, even if he had been willing, it doesn't mean that TCC would have been a good fit. As we always repeat, it is neither a magical cure, nor is it a good enviorment for all skaters. Rippon certainly did not fit there, so he changed coaches and found his right place at Raf's. But we'll never know as he isn't going. This doesn't change the qualities TCC has and that it is an elite place. And realistically, it could also have been a very good fit for Boyang and brought great results. We should acknowledge both possibilities.

Since Boyang is unwilling, all of this is a moot point anyway as if you are unwilling, even if you end up going, it's simply not the same. The chances of being fully committed and absorbing everything that is offered lowers and that's that. In that sense, this is the best decision for Boyang but at the same time, it may still be the wrong decision. 

 

We have no idea why he isn't going; the official explanation is a classic PR mess of a - ho hum um hmm yeah. so. there you go. - which cracks me up something awful but at the same time, it does leave so much room for speculation.
Yes, Boyang is very attached to his old coaches and his current training environment. He is comfortable there. His family is there. His English isn't at a good enough level. All true.

At the same time, there's no harm, in a calm discussion, to acknowledge that while all of that is true, being comfortable in China can also be a negative as he may be reluctant to get out of his bubble and step into a different, much more challenging, environment. Because it won't be Boyang the top dog, but it will be Boyang, just another skater, next to the top dog, and some other elite athletes and upcoming elite athletes. It's a change. His coach will have him, and all the others, quite different from what he has now. 

 

Now the big thing, why many are raising questions about him, is that there is one thing that differs about Boyang - he is state funded. Taxpayers are paying for all that he does.

Should this mean he needs to dance to their tune? No but at the same time, the responsibility he has is slightly different to that of say Yuzuru or Jason. Zhenya is probably closest to him at TCC because she is partially still being helped by RusFed. 

I have seen quite a few Chinese fans asking questions due to this and it's their right to ask. He isn't doing this on his own money. He's doing this on essentially 'their' money. So when we combine all of this, I think it is easy to see why some are deeply unhappy and even more so, considering some of the history Chinese skating has. 

 

In the end, this is Boyang's own choice and he'll have all the responsibility for it. It's no small matter. I hope he has weighed this thoroughly because it won't be easy. He cannot have another WC 2018 and hope a lot of folks will wave it away; they won't. CSA is going to be watching and I guarantee they cannot be happy now. It's turned into this really complex matter and we are going to have many different opinions on the matter. Criticism and support. I think this sort of divergence that has occurred in a pretty steady fan-base shows how messy the situation is. 

In the end time will tell. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, as that always goes. In the mean time, agree to disagree on some matters and take comfort that all of this is coming from the place where peeps feel strongly for Boyang and want him to succeed. 

[rockstaryuzu]

4 hours ago, salty said:

 

and that's your opinion actually. because it's not objectively better for Boyang, obviously, or else he would've gone  you're acting like he's some dumb kid who can't make good decisions for himself when in fact have you ever met him? have you met brian and tracy? have you been to TCC? Have you met Boyang's coaches? Or seen his training facility? I doubt it, so actually there's no way you can say with such certainty that TCC is the better option for him, just like i cant say for sure it wouldn't be. the bottom line is we are not Boyang Jin, we do not owe him anything, we have no right. we can certainly be disappointed in his decisions but being outraged is going a little far i think

 

edit: there's more to being an elite skater than just developing good skating skills; so okay Boyang goes to canada and he gets better SS and different packaging. but in the process he loses his consistency and becomes a basket case because he's in a foreign country where not even his coaches speak his language. you've got to be made of stardust to be able to be that strong to move across the world and make your family sacrifice everything just to get better skating skills and better choreography. im not saying this reality would happen but it's just as likely as boyang going to TCC and everything being peachy for him

You say all this, but Yuzu did it, Javi did it, and now Evgenia is doing it. It's not something impossible. It's just also not for everybody.

[rockstaryuzu]

24 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

In the end, this is Boyang's own choice a

See, this is the part that I'm questioning. Going back to what you said about being a state-run funded athlete in China, and about how China likes to run things, the reality is that the Chinese always want to make it look like China is the best and the Chinese system is the best. That's why, when it was first announced that the Chinese had reached out to Brian about Boyang going to TCC, I was shocked. It was so out of line with what they would normally do. From the start, the whole thing sounded odd. Then as the summer went on and Boyang didn't end up at TCC, I really started to question things. It was starting to look like Chinese politics already. 

Now this happens. I have no doubt whatsoever that it's a face-saving move for the Chinese. Because imagine how it looks on them to be sending their top men's skater out of the country to train. Far better to make the foreign coach come to him, make it look like China has the upper hand again. Meanwhile, get the skater who was seeking to leave to say he doesn't want to leave China, couldn't bear it. Remind him who is funding him and just how easily that funding can be cut off. Problem solved.

 

To sum up, we don't know what really happened and the reason we don't know is because of the kind of country that China is. It could be that Boyang really wanted to go to TCC and was held back by internal politics, or it could be that he was told to go by the Chinese fed and he refused. 

 

Either way, his relationship with the Chinese skating fed may have been negatively impacted, but I sincerely hope not. However I think it's crunch time for him. He needs to win and win big. As long as he's winning, they can't say or do anything to him.

[Yatagarasu]

2 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

 It could be that Boyang really wanted to go to TCC and was held back by internal politics, or it could be that he was told to go by the Chinese fed and he refused.

 

I don't think he was held back by internal politics, I think he simply did not want to go. 
Too many things 'leaked' including that whole like a post/remove a like ages now ago. This is why so many got in a huff and why there's so much ugliness in the Chinese part of the fandom. It's been brewing for ages and now they have confirmation that he isn't going, it's not pretty. 

[Sammie]