Proposed changes for next season

[hoodie axel]

1 hour ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

Yes, that would be correct.

Place of birth is also "something special" that you need for a 10 in PCS.

  

Smashing, isn't it?

Ah, a two-fer. Smashing indeed.

[moonkat]

9 hours ago, Murieleirum said:

 

New bullets in some judges' head:

1) It's a quad! It's big!
2) Didn't fall
3) It's a quad! 
4) What step? I didn't see any step
5) Wow! It's a quad!
6) Skater does something cool when he lands 

 New bullets:
1) very good height and very good length (of all jumps in a combo or sequence)
2) good take-off and landing
3) effortless throughout (including rhythm in Jump combination)
4) steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry
5) very good body position from take-off to landing
6) element matches the music

 

let me do one for the ladies 

1) Hey, enough height and length for the rotations!

2) Oh, looked good going into the jump!

3) Effortless enough to land!

4) Steps? You mean a few seconds before the jump?

5) Would she be able to land it with poor body position?

6) Of course it matches the music! Now that back-loading is discouraged, we don't have that problem!

[asiacheetah]

I have a question regarding second half bonus.

 

I know the rules are 1 bonus in the SP and 3 in the LP.

 

My question is, which jump gets the bonus? Is it the first jump (SP) or first 3 jumps (LP) after the half way point? or is it the last jump in the SP and last 3 jumps in the LP?

 

Looking at Yuzu's intended 2017/2018 layout, the difference is pretty big.

 

SP:

4Loop // 3A, 4T3T

is now either 4Loop, 3A, 4T3T (bonus) or 4 Loop, 3A (bonus), 4T3T

 

LP:

4Lutz, 4Loop 3F // 4S3T, 4T-loop-3S, 3A2T, 3A, 3Lutz

is now 4Lutz, 4Loop, 3F, 4S3T (bonus), 4T-loop-3S (bonus), 3A2T (bonus), 3A, 3Lutz, or 4 Lutz, 4Loop, 3F, 4S3T, 4T-loop-3S, 3A2T (bonus), 3A (bonus), 3Lutz (bonus)

 

I don't know which I prefer the first 3 in the second half or the last sets. I know toward the end of the program is when everyone is tired and hard to perform the jumps so in that sense, I think the second half bonus should go to the last 3 jumps in the LP. Or maybe they should choose by highest BV in the second half.

 

Any thoughts, clarifications?

[airi]

3 minutes ago, asiacheetah said:

My question is, which jump gets the bonus? Is it the first jump (SP) or first 3 jumps (LP) after the half way point? or is it the last jump in the SP and last 3 jumps in the LP?

Last jump in SP and last 3 in FS

[Yatagarasu]

4 minutes ago, asiacheetah said:

or is it the last jump in the SP and last 3 jumps in the LP?

 

This.

For the SP it's a non issue I would think, but for the FS it'll end up being three combos for those who have the stamina. Ideally both 3As and a quad. Not easy but then Zu has actually already fiddled with similar in Seimei 2.0.

 

Though tbh, I expect Yuzuru to keep the current SP layout even if the 3A won't get a bonus. 

[asiacheetah]

On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 9:31 AM, robin said:

Yuzu didn't do -3Lo combos even when he had the 4Lo so I think for whatever reason he didn't train it then (probably because he was more occupied with dealing with the 4Lo/4Lz) he won't train it now either.

I just saw a video on Instagram full of Yuzu wilding jumps during gala or exhibit practices. There was one session when he kept tacking on loops at the end. He can get it, but looses balance on the landing.

 

Mr. perfect landing and difficult entry Hanyu would never perform a combo he can't give his best.

[asiacheetah]

Thanks for the clarifications!

 

I'm not sure how I feel about this. I know it's in response to the ladies field and making sure not everyone is going to have a back loaded program. But who else remembers that when Yuzu first came on the senior scene, he managed to be so competitive because he's been backloading his jumps since the beginning? I remember watching Nice WC the British uncles marveling at him doing 5 jumps in the second half.

 

Would he have advanced so quickly and broken so many records without all those backloading?

[Yatagarasu]

10 minutes ago, asiacheetah said:

Would he have advanced so quickly and broken so many records without all those backloading?

 

Honestly, it was a complete over-reaction, not to mention there was a second, better, proposal by the Canadians to make it 2-4 instead of 1-3; that was much more balanced. But Japan pushed through the 1-3 and talk about short-sighted. They're are not going to catch the Russian ladies but they better not be surprised when others start catching up to them. 

I would not be surprised at all if some time in the future they move to 2-4. 

But you know, even with this, I don't think it'll be easy for the men to have all three combos as the last set of jumps, or at least both 3As and a quad. I think Zu will be fine, knock on wood; playing with that 4T-Lo-3S so late in the program will really pay off now. 

[shanshani]

Figure I might as well post this here too, since it's probably of special interest to you guys and I put way too much work into if for me not to try to show everyone. I went back and rescored some old competitions under the new scale of values + backloading rules + one less jumping pass in men's (didn't include the quad repetition rule because it would have messed up the calculations too much). Here's the link for men's and here's the link for ladies, and you can find the write up of how I got the results and a bunch of other gory details on goldenskate (are we allowed to link gs?) or on reddit. The long and short of it is that under the new rules, Yuzu benefits a lot.*

 

For instance, Yuzu would have won 2017 4CC by almost 4 points. Moreover, Yuzu's 2018 Olys skate beats Javi's personal best by 2 pts, Shoma's by 3, and Nathan Chen's pb by 7 points. There's almost a 20 point gap between Yuzu's PB and everyone else's. Even when Yuzu doesn't skate clean, his scores hold up much better than almost all of the rest of the field's (notable exception being Javi, who also gets high GOEs and sees a similar effect on his scores as Yuzu)--note that everyone's scores fall because of losing the 8th jumping pass, but Yuzu's falls less than everyone else. Nathan loses like 10 points on average, whereas Yuzu loses 4 (at least in the competitions I rescored). In one case, (GPF2015), his score actually goes up, which is kind of absurd if you think about it. Losing a triple + quad BV getting nerfed, yet he winds up with a higher score off of GOEs.

*At least if you assume judges will award GOEs in proportion to how they award them now. It's a pretty big *if*, to be fair.

[wingman]

Ok, I must admit that I did not read the ISU rulebook (too intimidating / convoluted for me). 

Here's what I'm wondering: now that there are 6 bullets but goe ranges from -5 to +5, how does the "bullet ticking" convert to GOE?

Is there a rigorous formula

eg:

* no bullets ticked = 0

* 5-6 bullets ticked = +5

* some bullets ticked as "failed" -->minus GOE

?

In the old system I find the minus somewhat arbitrary. Obviously if they fell then something must have gone wrong somewhere, but the criterion for what constitutes -3/-2/-1 was not clear to me. 

[cirelle]

56 minutes ago, shanshani said:

Figure I might as well post this here too, since it's probably of special interest to you guys and I put way too much work into if for me not to try to show everyone. I went back and rescored some old competitions under the new scale of values + backloading rules + one less jumping pass in men's (didn't include the quad repetition rule because it would have messed up the calculations too much). Here's the link for men's and here's the link for ladies, and you can find the write up of how I got the results and a bunch of other gory details on goldenskate (are we allowed to link gs?) or on reddit. The long and short of it is that under the new rules, Yuzu benefits a lot.*

 

For instance, Yuzu would have won 2017 4CC by almost 4 points. Moreover, Yuzu's 2018 Olys skate beats Javi's personal best by 2 pts, Shoma's by 3, and Nathan Chen's pb by 7 points. There's almost a 20 point gap between Yuzu's PB and everyone else's. Even when Yuzu doesn't skate clean, his scores hold up much better than almost all of the rest of the field's (notable exception being Javi, who also gets high GOEs and sees a similar effect on his scores as Yuzu)--note that everyone's scores fall because of losing the 8th jumping pass, but Yuzu's falls less than everyone else. Nathan loses like 10 points on average, whereas Yuzu loses 4 (at least in the competitions I rescored). In one case, (GPF2015), his score actually goes up, which is kind of absurd if you think about it. Losing a triple + quad BV getting nerfed, yet he winds up with a higher score off of GOEs.

*At least if you assume judges will award GOEs in proportion to how they award them now. It's a pretty big *if*, to be fair.

 

 I thought this was a really interesting read! Like you, and others, keep saying, Yuzu will be FINE. 

[yuzuangel]

1 hour ago, shanshani said:

Figure I might as well post this here too, since it's probably of special interest to you guys and I put way too much work into if for me not to try to show everyone. I went back and rescored some old competitions under the new scale of values + backloading rules + one less jumping pass in men's (didn't include the quad repetition rule because it would have messed up the calculations too much). Here's the link for men's and here's the link for ladies, and you can find the write up of how I got the results and a bunch of other gory details on goldenskate (are we allowed to link gs?) or on reddit. The long and short of it is that under the new rules, Yuzu benefits a lot.*

 

For instance, Yuzu would have won 2017 4CC by almost 4 points. Moreover, Yuzu's 2018 Olys skate beats Javi's personal best by 2 pts, Shoma's by 3, and Nathan Chen's pb by 7 points. There's almost a 20 point gap between Yuzu's PB and everyone else's. Even when Yuzu doesn't skate clean, his scores hold up much better than almost all of the rest of the field's (notable exception being Javi, who also gets high GOEs and sees a similar effect on his scores as Yuzu)--note that everyone's scores fall because of losing the 8th jumping pass, but Yuzu's falls less than everyone else. Nathan loses like 10 points on average, whereas Yuzu loses 4 (at least in the competitions I rescored). In one case, (GPF2015), his score actually goes up, which is kind of absurd if you think about it. Losing a triple + quad BV getting nerfed, yet he winds up with a higher score off of GOEs.

*At least if you assume judges will award GOEs in proportion to how they award them now. It's a pretty big *if*, to be fair.

Thanks for the analysis! This is very interesting 

[Cerunias]

4 hours ago, shanshani said:

Figure I might as well post this here too, since it's probably of special interest to you guys and I put way too much work into if for me not to try to show everyone. I went back and rescored some old competitions under the new scale of values + backloading rules + one less jumping pass in men's (didn't include the quad repetition rule because it would have messed up the calculations too much). Here's the link for men's and here's the link for ladies, and you can find the write up of how I got the results and a bunch of other gory details on goldenskate (are we allowed to link gs?) or on reddit. The long and short of it is that under the new rules, Yuzu benefits a lot.*

 

For instance, Yuzu would have won 2017 4CC by almost 4 points. Moreover, Yuzu's 2018 Olys skate beats Javi's personal best by 2 pts, Shoma's by 3, and Nathan Chen's pb by 7 points. There's almost a 20 point gap between Yuzu's PB and everyone else's. Even when Yuzu doesn't skate clean, his scores hold up much better than almost all of the rest of the field's (notable exception being Javi, who also gets high GOEs and sees a similar effect on his scores as Yuzu)--note that everyone's scores fall because of losing the 8th jumping pass, but Yuzu's falls less than everyone else. Nathan loses like 10 points on average, whereas Yuzu loses 4 (at least in the competitions I rescored). In one case, (GPF2015), his score actually goes up, which is kind of absurd if you think about it. Losing a triple + quad BV getting nerfed, yet he winds up with a higher score off of GOEs.

*At least if you assume judges will award GOEs in proportion to how they award them now. It's a pretty big *if*, to be fair.

 

Interesting analysis.

 

Another thing to bear in mind is that a slightly shorter skate and one less jumping pass means your stamina doesn't have to stretch quite as far (or you can redirect it towards the other jumps - stamina is a resource that is limited after all). That may benefit Yuzuru slightly more than others (although to be honest, the whole media thing of 'he has asthma' and thing about his stamina is a bit overblown in my opinion - since a) he's a high level athlete after all, b) his astounding work ethic, c) have you seen the jumps/combos/tacked-on jumps he saves to last to do?), but it also does mean that the chance of going clean is probably slightly higher for everyone, or that they can feel they can afford to do more complex entries. The whole repetition thing can be of benefit to Yuzuru who demonstrated in PC that you don't have to be able to jump the most complex jumps (you just have to jump cleanly and max out GOE on every element), as opposed to other skaters who may require certain high scoring jumps to be repeated in order to be able to pump up their score (and we all know that Yuzuru tends to score equal or better in GOEs than his competitors).

[WinForPooh]

7 hours ago, shanshani said:

Figure I might as well post this here too, since it's probably of special interest to you guys and I put way too much work into if for me not to try to show everyone. I went back and rescored some old competitions under the new scale of values + backloading rules + one less jumping pass in men's (didn't include the quad repetition rule because it would have messed up the calculations too much). Here's the link for men's and here's the link for ladies, and you can find the write up of how I got the results and a bunch of other gory details on goldenskate (are we allowed to link gs?) or on reddit. The long and short of it is that under the new rules, Yuzu benefits a lot.*

 

For instance, Yuzu would have won 2017 4CC by almost 4 points. Moreover, Yuzu's 2018 Olys skate beats Javi's personal best by 2 pts, Shoma's by 3, and Nathan Chen's pb by 7 points. There's almost a 20 point gap between Yuzu's PB and everyone else's. Even when Yuzu doesn't skate clean, his scores hold up much better than almost all of the rest of the field's (notable exception being Javi, who also gets high GOEs and sees a similar effect on his scores as Yuzu)--note that everyone's scores fall because of losing the 8th jumping pass, but Yuzu's falls less than everyone else. Nathan loses like 10 points on average, whereas Yuzu loses 4 (at least in the competitions I rescored). In one case, (GPF2015), his score actually goes up, which is kind of absurd if you think about it. Losing a triple + quad BV getting nerfed, yet he winds up with a higher score off of GOEs.

*At least if you assume judges will award GOEs in proportion to how they award them now. It's a pretty big *if*, to be fair.

Wow that spreadsheet is amazing! So much work! Thank you for doing that!

[robin]

5 hours ago, Cerunias said:

 

Interesting analysis.

 

Another thing to bear in mind is that a slightly shorter skate and one less jumping pass means your stamina doesn't have to stretch quite as far (or you can redirect it towards the other jumps - stamina is a resource that is limited after all). That may benefit Yuzuru slightly more than others (although to be honest, the whole media thing of 'he has asthma' and thing about his stamina is a bit overblown in my opinion - since a) he's a high level athlete after all, b) his astounding work ethic, c) have you seen the jumps/combos/tacked-on jumps he saves to last to do?), but it also does mean that the chance of going clean is probably slightly higher for everyone, or that they can feel they can afford to do more complex entries. The whole repetition thing can be of benefit to Yuzuru who demonstrated in PC that you don't have to be able to jump the most complex jumps (you just have to jump cleanly and max out GOE on every element), as opposed to other skaters who may require certain high scoring jumps to be repeated in order to be able to pump up their score (and we all know that Yuzuru tends to score equal or better in GOEs than his competitors).

 

The time cut will probably benefit Yuzu but for different reasons. Yes, 30 seconds were cut but only one jump along with it. In past free skates one jump did not correspond to 30 secs of the whole program. I think there is Brian’s opinion on this somewhere on the internet but I couldn’t tell you where he said it... but essentially, the free programs will be more tightly packed and there will be less resting time for skaters so rather than being easier on their stamina it might have the opposite effect. Yuzu’s set up time for jumps is short and precise so he won’t suffer from this as much as other skaters who “waste” more time going into jumps. So I also don’t see jump entries getting more complex due to the time cut, if anything they will get simpler