General Skating Chat

[SSS]

55 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

/sweats nervously/... I'm gonna try to explain but like I said... I'm very very bad at it...

 

So... according to Sunday Station, Yuzu needs to jump 17cm higher and 1.1m further for him to land a 4a.

    

[x]

 

Distance is not an issue, I think. While he has great height on his jumps the distance he gets from his 3a is already outstanding (spans 12 seats)

[x]

 

Fancam of Boston 2016 SP shows just how much distance his 3a covers (and this is from a backcounter entrance)

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The way his flopped 3a jumps in the galas last season looked - his air position have started to get a bit tilted (when he normally has the best air position for his jumps, especially the 3a). I think he's training to get the maximum height he needs to jump the 4a. Mind you the entrances to his flopped gala 3a's were also from difficult transitions. I don't think he flops as much in competition because of muscle memory when he trains his programs. But this is all just my nonsensical theory.

"tilted"! That might explain my awkward feeling. Glad they were all in gala 

[Neenah]

7 hours ago, kaeryth said:

Re: Reducing Quad BVs and giving +/- GOEs.. I'm kinda bummed they're not doing anything about PCS and focused on the TES alone. Although this new rule plus the reduced jumping pass may force skaters to go for quality instead of quantity, there is still subjectivity in the awarding of GOEs. ISU needs to revamp rules to be more clear and specific instead of it being vague and subject to interpretation.

 

We still do not have enough details about the changes they plan to make after the Olympics,  there is still hope that they will address the PC issue. As for new role (if it really happen), I think it is a good thing. reducing the BV and increasing the range of GOE means they are recognizing the need for quality over quantity. I have been thinking that they should do that for a while now because quads are becoming the norm (at least at the top) and they should be scrutinized more considering the huge advantage merely landing one gives the skater.

[Dori6886]

The problem with ISU is that even when changes sound good in theory, in practice they never work as planned.  The biggest problem of this sport is judging and any rule changes and BV reductions won't fix it. Even abolition of anonymous judging didn't help, so I won't hold my breath for that. But it's a positive thing they see the need for quality over quantity. 

[Murieleirum]

Reducing the BV and increasing the GOE to encourage quality over quantity is exactly what we've been hoping for. Of course, one should not already take for granted thaat everything is going to go as we wish it, and injustice won't have place anymore, but it surely is a good sign to me. It seems like those few voices of FS experts and critics whom asked for rules that would protect Figure Skating as a whole (sport and artistic side of it) have had the chance to make their opinions heard. 

 

Of course, you never know how reality goes. But even only saying theoretically that a change of rules will be made to encourage quality over quantity sounds like taking a stand against the youngster quad craze, and manifesting the will to protect the artistic side of the sport. 

[kaeryth]

3 hours ago, SSS said:

"tilted"! That might explain my awkward feeling. Glad they were all in gala 

 

I am by no means an expert so I might just be talking nonsense /LOL/. But I'm basing my assumption on how tilted the axis of his jump is when he over-rotates his quads...

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Yolo3a]

My doubt is, if anyone could clarify, does these change affect this year or would be for the year after Olympics

[kaeryth]

12 minutes ago, Yolo3a said:

My doubt is, if anyone could clarify, does these change affect this year or would be for the year after Olympics

 

Any changes will have to happen the season after the Olympics. What the article is saying is not official. So we're still not sure these are the only changes ISU will make.

[xeyra]

The change of GOE range to -5 +5 seems good in theory but you hardly already have jumps being awarded full GOE, either quads or triples, even when technically they could deserve it, that I doubt increasing the range is going to make judges give those jumps the maximum GOE, especially if the max increases.

[kaeryth]

Whatever 'good' changes they make in terms of the rules, if it's not implemented well in judging then it's useless.

[Xen]

3 hours ago, xeyra said:

The change of GOE range to -5 +5 seems good in theory but you hardly already have jumps being awarded full GOE, either quads or triples, even when technically they could deserve it, that I doubt increasing the range is going to make judges give those jumps the maximum GOE, especially if the max increases.

I'm actually a bit worried about the changes they are thinking of, other than the fact ISU is trying to refine the TES score and not de-coupling BV and PCS. There are a couple where I can see a harder jump layout executed well and to the music could deserve higher PCS,  but that should be applied consistently. Consistency is the problem with a lot of judging these days.

 

Second, before fixing the BV of jumps, they should seriously just toughen up tech panel to match the ladies. I.e. Wrong edges, cheated take offs, etc should be called. Since we have 30 secs less program time next, I think it's viable for the tech panel to get a chance to review more content in slow mo. I still find it slightly astounding that with all the quad lutzes and flips going around, no guy has had a wrong edge. I know these guys are amazing, but still-Seriously?! Before even going up the GOE scores, if we wanted guys to go for good, clean jumps, that might have been enough- at least in the ladies tech calls usually do the job. A wrong edge call is a big enough point loss that most skaters would think carefully before throwing in harder edge jumps (flips/lutzes) just for the BV possibility.

 

Third, I would prefer to see how judges actually use the +/-5 GOE first before slashing BVs. Because then theoretically it is possible for a well done 3 Lz, 3A etc to get the same score as quads. This is probably a good direction, especially where 3As are concerned- there were many guys even at WC who did quads fine but faltered on the 3A. Considering that the 3A jump is the jump among the men's that separates the boys from the men, then it should be given proper notice.

 

Fourth, if the ISU still insists on decreasing BV, I hope they do a small change. Like around 0.2-0.3 change, not drastic. This is to prevent another vancouver men's repeat. And also, I think it's rather mean to all the junior men who are practicing quads now, but then in 3 years get told that their work isn't as appreciated. Furthermore, on the ladies' side, we haven't seen much jump layout changes in quite a while, if we decrease the BV too much, there's less incentive for ladies to go for the new jumps-and to a degree it's a bit unfair to ladies who have been practicing the quads right now.

[singcarcom]

 

11 hours ago, SSS said:

I did. The only thing I noticed was the recent 3As were "awkward"...it seems that they need more time in the air... which is opposite from "open earlier" I feel bad for my eyes..maybe that "awkward" part is the thing...

 

I don't really know the technical part of figure skating well, but I guess this explains why I feel that Yuzu's recent 3A aren't as elegant as some of those before.  It just doesn't seem as beautiful. 

 

11 hours ago, Xen said:

so he has been experimenting with controlling his jump height and distance?

 

It's only 17cm and 10% more speed right?  Only 1 more rotation from 3A. 

 

1 hour ago, Xen said:

I'm actually a bit worried about the changes they are thinking of, other than the fact ISU is trying to refine the TES score and not de-coupling BV and PCS. There are a couple where I can see a harder jump layout executed well and to the music could deserve higher PCS,  but that should be applied consistently. Consistency is the problem with a lot of judging these days.

 

Second, before fixing the BV of jumps, they should seriously just toughen up tech panel to match the ladies. I.e. Wrong edges, cheated take offs, etc should be called. Since we have 30 secs less program time next, I think it's viable for the tech panel to get a chance to review more content in slow mo. I still find it slightly astounding that with all the quad lutzes and flips going around, no guy has had a wrong edge. I know these guys are amazing, but still-Seriously?! Before even going up the GOE scores, if we wanted guys to go for good, clean jumps, that might have been enough- at least in the ladies tech calls usually do the job. A wrong edge call is a big enough point loss that most skaters would think carefully before throwing in harder edge jumps (flips/lutzes) just for the BV possibility.

 

Third, I would prefer to see how judges actually use the +/-5 GOE first before slashing BVs. Because then theoretically it is possible for a well done 3 Lz, 3A etc to get the same score as quads. This is probably a good direction, especially where 3As are concerned- there were many guys even at WC who did quads fine but faltered on the 3A. Considering that the 3A jump is the jump among the men's that separates the boys from the men, then it should be given proper notice.

 

Fourth, if the ISU still insists on decreasing BV, I hope they do a small change. Like around 0.2-0.3 change, not drastic. This is to prevent another vancouver men's repeat. And also, I think it's rather mean to all the junior men who are practicing quads now, but then in 3 years get told that their work isn't as appreciated. Furthermore, on the ladies' side, we haven't seen much jump layout changes in quite a while, if we decrease the BV too much, there's less incentive for ladies to go for the new jumps-and to a degree it's a bit unfair to ladies who have been practicing the quads right now.

 

I agree. They should make it mandatory for judges to watch more slow-mo replays before awarding GOEs. PCS can be subjective, but not GOEs. If non-experts can spot URs, edges and other issues with slow-mo, the judges have no excuses.  I also think Yuzu will benefit more from this because he's often so fast that judges can't catch how brilliant his jumps are. 

 

I also wish to see more negative GOEs given. Besides very obvious errors such as falls or hands touching the ground, I don't see negative GOEs being given much often.  Based on the current system, "long preparation", "poor take-off", "loss of flow/rhythm", "poor speed, height, distance or air position“ all constitute negative GOEs, but I don't see these getting called out much. 

 

And judges need to stop confusing GOEs with PCS, if not it defeats the purpose of PCS.

 

As for the BV, I would prefer a slightly larger decrease...0.2-0.3 seems a little too trivial. Current bv of quads are 6.3-7.6 points higher than the corresponding triples, which make jumping more quads a worthy risk. Since the triples are 2.2-3.9 points higher than doubles, I think it'll be fair if quads have 5 - 6.5 points higher bv.  Or, they can increase the bv of triples, especially 3A, since many quadsters still have issues with 3A. 

[SSS]

Quads are hard. They should still have the high bv. What needs to be changed is the judging...+/-5 GOE won't help.

6 hours ago, kaeryth said:

 

I am by no means an expert so I might just be talking nonsense /LOL/. But I'm basing my assumption on how tilted the axis of his jump is when he over-rotates his quads...

 

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I don't know...the commentator is so strict..."shame"...

12 minutes ago, singcarcom said:

 

 

I don't really know the technical part of figure skating well, but I guess this explains why I feel that Yuzu's recent 3A aren't as elegant as some of those before.  It just doesn't seem as beautiful. 

 

 

Because they are in second half?

[Forcefield]

2 hours ago, Xen said:

I'm actually a bit worried about the changes they are thinking of, other than the fact ISU is trying to refine the TES score and not de-coupling BV and PCS. There are a couple where I can see a harder jump layout executed well and to the music could deserve higher PCS,  but that should be applied consistently. Consistency is the problem with a lot of judging these days.

 

Second, before fixing the BV of jumps, they should seriously just toughen up tech panel to match the ladies. I.e. Wrong edges, cheated take offs, etc should be called. Since we have 30 secs less program time next, I think it's viable for the tech panel to get a chance to review more content in slow mo. I still find it slightly astounding that with all the quad lutzes and flips going around, no guy has had a wrong edge. I know these guys are amazing, but still-Seriously?! Before even going up the GOE scores, if we wanted guys to go for good, clean jumps, that might have been enough- at least in the ladies tech calls usually do the job. A wrong edge call is a big enough point loss that most skaters would think carefully before throwing in harder edge jumps (flips/lutzes) just for the BV possibility.

 

Third, I would prefer to see how judges actually use the +/-5 GOE first before slashing BVs. Because then theoretically it is possible for a well done 3 Lz, 3A etc to get the same score as quads. This is probably a good direction, especially where 3As are concerned- there were many guys even at WC who did quads fine but faltered on the 3A. Considering that the 3A jump is the jump among the men's that separates the boys from the men, then it should be given proper notice.

 

Fourth, if the ISU still insists on decreasing BV, I hope they do a small change. Like around 0.2-0.3 change, not drastic. This is to prevent another vancouver men's repeat. And also, I think it's rather mean to all the junior men who are practicing quads now, but then in 3 years get told that their work isn't as appreciated. Furthermore, on the ladies' side, we haven't seen much jump layout changes in quite a while, if we decrease the BV too much, there's less incentive for ladies to go for the new jumps-and to a degree it's a bit unfair to ladies who have been practicing the quads right now.

 

I agree with everything but for this part my thoughts

 

Perhaps with all the outcry about overvaluing jumps, this reduction of BV value of quads if it happens is the alternative rather than limiting quads like some people wanted. The juniors turning seniors soon probably are the sacrifice as the system adjusts, but a necessary one. It might even protect them from causing harm to their bodies from the training. Though tbh ISU rules and the field are always changing so even in this era of quads the current crop of senior men pushing the sport are also the guinea pigs. Making the changes now will be good for juniors and younger aspiring skaters. Hanyu's favorite skaters had programs in the 6.0 era, he himself probably had to make adjustments as a novice, and for the better as he came to understand and own the COP era.

[xeyra]

2 hours ago, singcarcom said:

 

 

I don't really know the technical part of figure skating well, but I guess this explains why I feel that Yuzu's recent 3A aren't as elegant as some of those before.  It just doesn't seem as beautiful. 

 

Sorry, can't understand you.

[SSS]

4 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

Sorry, can't understand you.

Don't let me start on Chopin, I can't stop looping...won't be productive lol

 

3A is so beautiful