General Skating Chat

[Sombreuil]

Never thought I would look at GS again but curiosity got the better of me- great stuff @Yatagarasu - [edited by yuzuangel: please don't call out users on other platforms here ]

[Forcefield]

8 hours ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

Okaaay, here goes nothing (warning: it's loooooong ass--like,  even the paragraphs are long -.-; )

 

WHOLE POST

 You said everything I didn't have the right words to say and more. Wow.

 

5 hours ago, Sombreuil said:

Never thought I would look at GS again but curiosity got the better of me- great stuff @Yatagarasu [edited by yuzuangel: please don't call out users on other platforms here ]

I love love @yatagarasu's post. I'm not even kidding it made me laugh. I must be masochist because I keep on lurking on GS as well. [edited by yuzuangel: please don't call out users on other platforms here ]

 

 

[Yatagarasu]

Hello everyone, how are you on this fine day? 

 

About this whole current discussion going on, honestly as far as I am concerned, ultimately this is a question that affects figure skating itself. 

If we have this marked as a Lutz

http://imgur.com/a/8kO6P

 

which is clear forward, edge take off, then it raises questions that are far greater than just one jump. If the ISU is willing to accept this as a proper jump, regardless of the current definitions and rules (and this is not jumping the gun, they already accept his edge take off for the flip), then they are bound to amend those rules and make sure that the playing field is leveled for all skaters (it is not now; keep in mind for example Satoko Miyahara got injured trying to correct her prerotation issues last season). This way everyone can create their own hybrid jumps, that would make sure that they can execute quads, or quasi-quads if we include the removal of prerotation in the new rules and that is simply that. IMO, it opens up a Pandora's box that would irreparably harm this sport but at least everyone could do their own variants, and that is that, for no matter how long skating sticks around after that.

 

If however the current definitions and rules are to stand, then all need to be bound by those. I really do not care about the names, I care about the overall practices, especially in cases such as these where the problems are so blatant. 

There are kids right now who are watching all of this, watching these top skaters do their jumps, while being grilled by their coaches on proper technique. So what are they supposed to think?

What are the other current skaters supposed to think? What about their own efforts? Are they in vain? 

 

It's a genuine question to be considered. Are they in vain? In a competitive sport, where you win or lose, and in an expensive competitive sport, where you placement is the one that determines your funding and/or sponsors, what exactly are we saying here?

 

So. I really don't think I am asking for much. Either amend the rules, so that everyone benefits, or follow the current ones. 

[Eclair]

I'd like to add that that particular 4 lutz is really the strangest jump - Shoma first enters it by skating a straight line backwards  (the normal lutz entry), then he suddenly moves direction at about 60 degree to his left and raises his leg to toe pick and get on the outside edge (not normal - normal lutz entry include a straight entry, but OK). Then he changes directions again, this time to his right, because he's now on the inside edge again and picking into the ice. 

I've never seen such a weird lutz entry ... 

 

and then follows what has already been discussed - rotating on his toe pick (pre-rotation), jump, landing. 

 

I tried to stop and play his lutz entry to look at when he's taking off and found it totally confusing, that he's changing directions that often. It#s like Yatagarasu said, that's not a lutz anymore but some kind of morph jump ..

[Yatagarasu]

8 minutes ago, Eclair said:

I tried to stop and play his lutz entry to look at when he's taking off and found it totally confusing, that he's changing directions that often. It#s like Yatagarasu said, that's not a lutz anymore but some kind of morph jump ..

 

I honestly cannot tell. I call it a (F)Lutzberger but if you really try and look there are almost elements of the Sal there, and he prerotates to such a degree, that we can almost call this a creative Axel entry. It is a genuine hybrid jump. 

 

I mean we really do talk about URs and edge calls a lot; all our newbies here will see how that goes. It's a long-standing argument that goes on and on; there's no figure skating without perpetual UR and edge discussions. But I do not recall we've had this type of hybrid before.

[liv]

What I know about the Olympics is that general fans will not care how a jump is done, or more likely, they will not know the nuances involved in performing each jump.  If the jumps are landed, the program captivates the audience and home viewer, the skater and coaches react in jubilation, and no commentator remarks on the good/poor technique of the hardest quads ( they still are awed by the fact they ARE rather than HOW), to make them doubt the quality of what they just saw, then that viewer will not care about the important details. If the judges have not/do not deduct points now, I doubt they will until the next quad. It's like the reset button is pushed at that time. 

[Murieleirum]

23 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

I honestly cannot tell. I call it a (F)Lutzberger but if you really try and look there are almost elements of the Sal there, and he prerotates to such a degree, that we can almost call this a creative Axel entry. It is a genuine hybrid jump. 

 

 

What if really he's been trying to create his own jump all along? 

(and using ISU's rulebook as a playground in the meanwhile...)

[Forcefield]

1 hour ago, liv said:

What I know about the Olympics is that general fans will not care how a jump is done, or more likely, they will not know the nuances involved in performing each jump.  If the jumps are landed, the program captivates the audience and home viewer, the skater and coaches react in jubilation, and no commentator remarks on the good/poor technique of the hardest quads ( they still are awed by the fact they ARE rather than HOW), to make them doubt the quality of what they just saw, then that viewer will not care about the important details. If the judges have not/do not deduct points now, I doubt they will until the next quad. It's like the reset button is pushed at that time. 

 

For the casual viewer, it's not only the jumps or how captivating the program is, aesthetic is important. For someone like me who knows very little, even I am in awe of Yuzu's heavenly look-like-effortless jumps and see the big difference between his and a few others. On screen we might not see speed or distance, and we don't understand skating skills (unless its reeeeeaaallly obvious), but we can still see height and landing of jumps. We see spins and the incorporation of everything into choreography. Casual viewers will not understand things like technique, but it's a competition (especially the Olympics when winning matters) and you bet they will still discuss it and try to understand why so and so is ahead of another that they think is better. People say all the time even when they know nothing about the sport, "I think so and so should have won" and etc. ISU is so backwards and alienates casual viewers with their vague rules and inconsistent judging.

 

Also, Yuna's second place finish in Sochi caused an uproar that even the general public heard it. Let's see what happens this season and in PC.

[liv]

Of course, aesthetics are part of what captivates a person. 

[Forcefield]

7 minutes ago, liv said:

Of course, aesthetics are part of what captivates a person. 

 I took it out from the beginning, but I actually started my paragraph with "I agree, and here's my personal experience". But I deleted it, along with my comparison of the casual viewer and scoring of figure skating with diving. So yea, I overthink too much and took about half an hour to actually write that paragraph. 

[yuzuangel]

2 hours ago, Murieleirum said:

 

What if really he's been trying to create his own jump all along? 

(and using ISU's rulebook as a playground in the meanwhile...)

Good question. So when do we start calling it the Shoma and giving it its own point value in the ISU rulebook? When did it stop being possible to invent a jump and get it named after you? 

[yuzuangel]

2 hours ago, Forcefield said:

Also, Yuna's second place finish in Sochi caused an uproar that even the general public heard it.

 

And yet nothing happened. Although if it does prevent the IOC and the ISU from feeding us another highly controversial (if it can even be called that, if 90% of people believe the result was wrong), then I'll take that as a consolation prize, I guess.

[Hydroblade]

8 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

Good question. So when do we start calling it the Shoma and giving it its own point value in the ISU rulebook? When did it stop being possible to invent a jump and get it named after you? 

Oh boy, I bet that would give us a very extra Yuzu he would prbably come up with two new jumps

[kaeryth]

So... let's talk strategy (with the men's discipline)! I realise I may be opening a can of worms here but I really do like analysing strategies. It's particularly unique in FS because you (mostly) know what your opponents are going to do/are capable of with an added element of uncertainty in judging. Note: You may or may not agree with someone's strategy but that doesn't mean you don't like that person. The goal of an athlete is to win - how to go about doing that is up to them and their team (some of these strategies you may like more than others though). So, there may be a Yuzu bias here (LOL, who's surprised) not just because he's my favourite, but honestly, he's the most consistent in talking about his strategies and visions (or well, he's the one I most read about).

 

Nathan: This one's easy. Pile on the quads. He and his team knows that performing and landing multiple different quads seem to inflate PCS (and sometimes GOEs). He's said that if he wins the Olympics he'll r**** so his strategy going in seems to be go all out with the TES and the PCS will follow. The drawback is that if he doesn't land them his PCS falls as well but right now he's got nothing to lose if he doesn't plan on competing after the Olympics.

 

Boyang: I think when they saw the multiple quads equals increased PCS strategy with Nathan they tried that strategy at 4CC as well but it didn't quite work out. I liked their strategy for Worlds better. Being clean can also boost your PCS although maybe not as high when you perform and land multiple quads. I do believe Boyang and his team are aiming for steady consistency and looking for Beijing 2020 as the ultimate goal and Pyeongchang as a stepping stone.

 

Patrick: Used to be the warhorse king (LOL) but seems to have found a niche in his music choices recently. The more mellow and introspective music he used last season (and is using this season) does very well to highlight his wonderful skating skills - unfortunately for him, he lacked the wow factor of quads that judges seem to be looking at right now (robbed of PCS... I can't believe it). It was a good idea to have the 4S last season and I hope the 4F training is doing well. His weakness is still the 3A though and I always brace myself when he's about to jump it.

 

Javi: He and the TCC team found the perfect packaging/style that works for him. Unfortunately, I believe it became sort of a comfort zone for him and he hasn't stepped outside of that comfort zone since (tech and style-wise). The thing is, for last season, he knows that if he's clean he is capable of winning even without the 4Lo (except maybe if he's against a clean Yuzu - but he himself has acknowledged that)... but that was last season. So, I'm not sure if that strategy will work this season (and he hasn't been clean last season so he lost a bit of momentum) and that's why he needs to put in that 4Lo.

 

Shoma: Oh boy.... Okay... Hmm... I understand what he and his team are doing in terms of strategies to win. I don't necessarily approve of it. It just feels a bit short term and relying too much on outside factors (not being called out by tech panel or judges for any errors - be it UR, PR, or correct edges). It may or may not also set a precedence for other skaters to follow suit and that's actually what I'm most worried about. Also, his health (particularly his knees and hips).

 

Yuzu: I am truly gobsmacked by the foresight this kiddo has. Seriously. I think most of us have read his insights and vision/predictions for FS (some dating back 2012) and let me just say, he has been correct so far. While I mourn for what could've been if the accident and injuries that happened 14-15 and 15-16 seasons didn't occur, I'm still glad he found lessons to be learned from those experience. Particularly, staying healthy. Honestly, when he kept harping on about his health I was a bit skeptical but now I truly feel that he actually means it this time and that's more than I can ask for. Interestingly enough, now that he's looking at his health, his stamina/body is no longer his greatest weakness. It seems now it's his mind. Which brings to mind the the strategy of bringing back Seimei and Chopin. At Worlds, he talked about being 'in the zone' and not thinking about anything during H&L (LOL, somebody's been reading too much Kuroko ni Basket). And I think these 2 programs are both programs he is able to perform without thinking too much. He's that confident about them. So now, I'm hoping to see his Biellman spin for every competition because if it doesn't appear then it prolly means he plans to YOLO and my heart can't take it. hahaha... (Remember when we used to worry about his back/health when he fails to do the Biellman?)

 

Sorry for the long post! Feel free to critique or discuss if anyone feels that my understanding of the top men's strategy might be off or a bit different from what you think.

 

 

 

[CupidsBow]

(I mean, it's cool to discuss other skaters it just depends on your tone and intention when doing it. I thought it was clear during the previous discussion that the problem was not the content of criticism but the manner in which it was delivered. I don't intend to re-engage with any of that though.)

 

I think the problem with the 'get the quads now, worry about technique (Shoma), or PCS (Nathan/Boyang) later strategy is they are all left playing catch up - but that's how it goes for boys rising up in seniors from juniors with only a season or two to go against more . Patrick and Javi also have a bit of catching up to do, but they can add maybe one more quad and still be competitive at the highest level because they have strong foundations in PCS and good technique so successful jumps are high in GOE. Then you have Yuzu who has been steadily building his tech, skills and performance ability pretty much all at the same time with no area taking precedent over another.

 

Of the young 3 I think Shoma has a good foundation in PCS now but I think his limited interpretation/music choices may start to bite him in the ass at some point and his issues with jump technique is definitely going to bite him sooner rather than later, if not in injury (I hope not) then because of tighter judging. In the long term, he might have a period of struggling if he does start really try to correct him jump technique since it will mess him up for a while. I like Shoma and he has expressed interest in staying for a long time so whether he's pushed by judges being a bit harsher with his GOE and his tech calls or just not wanting to irreversibly injure his hips/knees I do hope he shows more progress in improving the quality of his jumps not just the quantity of the jumps he can kinda-sorta do. As much as I like Shoma though...I'm not crazy about what we've seen for his programs next season. Loco made him really stand out...I'm not so sure next seasons programs will do that. So far he's a bit similar to Javi in terms of sticking to a comfort zone, unfortunately, Javi's comfort zone is entertaining programs that audiences easily connect to and Shoma's comfort zone is...not...that.

 

Nathan's whole strategy at the moment seems real short-sighted and short-term but he has a lot of potential if he does try to build more complex programs with more to offer in TR and other areas of PCS. He doesn't seem all that committed to a long game though, guess it will depend on how he does a PC and if he decides to aim for 2022. Idk I didn't really warm up to his skating at all last season and 6 quad rumours don't really excite my for next season either. He might have another solid SP followed by a front-loaded quad heavy free. Which I'm kinda meh about.

 

Boyang seems to be playing the best long game imo in that he had pretty solid jump technique, a good amount of quads and is steadily trying to improve his skating skills, his programs in general and his performance/interpretation, which will start paying off for him a lot sooner than, say, Shoma trying to fix his technique if judges start coming down on him. Last season he proved he has the performance ability and can connect with the crowd to get them on his side and invested in his program. If he builds up his SS and TR and generally gains a bit more polish to his programs he can be a strong contender in the future. 

 

As for shorter term, Shoma and Nathan have the best chance of getting some pay-off at Pyeongchang but something would have to go disastrously wrong with Yuzu for any of them to get gold. Yuzu's strategy is very strong and he has been playing a strong long game since he was ... like...in juniors. It'ss depend on whose risks pull through on the day. Maybe Nathan's risks with putting everything in TES despite so-so PCS and so-so GOE will pay off, or maybe he'll have an issue with a jump. maybe Shoma's  risk in boosting his BV as much as he can without securing good technique will pay off, or maybe he'll do a forward entry flutz and lose 9 points.  Also, both of them can get rekt if Javi and Patrick have a good two days, whether they up their tech or not. If Javi adds the 4lo and Patrick adds his 4F, and they have a good time at the Olympics (since they have the experience so may be able to have a better handle on nerves and will hopefully both maintain good physical condition) then honestly the lower BVs won't mean much. Shoma might be able to sneak onto the podium but if Team Uncles have two solid programs, they can head off the sQuad.