General Skating Chat

[Joey]

Regarding the whole "crossovers count for transition" thing Mr. Wong started - I don't think it's worth trying to understand what the skating/PCS related reasoning for that statement could be. He works for USFSA (IceNetwork is owned by them), USFSAs top skaters get often criticized for too many crossovers (now most importantly Nathan, but Ashley too for example), end of it. Because by all accounts, while crossovers do count as transitions - as per definition everything that a skater does between technical elements does - it's completely weird to highlight them the way he did. It makes no sense in any way.

 

And @yuzuangel, thanks for the interesting charts! Amazing how clearly Ms. Azuma from CoR left her mark   That amazing Judge who gave Nathan a higher TR score then Yuzuru in the LP (9.5 to 9.25)

[fireovertheice]

Quote

And @yuzuangel, thanks for the interesting charts! Amazing how clearly Ms. Azuma from CoR left her mark   That amazing Judge who gave Nathan a higher TR score then Yuzuru in the LP (9.5 to 9.25)

 

Yes, she did a wonderful job indeed !

Pratically she was playing the second American among the judges: not only she gave higher mark than Yuzuru to Chen in TR, but also in PE ; her scores and those of the USA judge are the only all in green, i.e. above the medium score obtained by Chen.

More: she gave sometimes better GOE to Chen than the USA judge (4F, 4T+combo, 3A, 3A+combo), while in scoring Yuzu she was more or less in the average with the exception of the 4T+3T: http://skatingscores.com/2018/gprus/men/long/

 

About her scores at CoR 2017 see also this ironic - and informative - blog entry: https://fuckyeahdearlybeloved.tumblr.com/post/166667788816/one-of-the-judges-j3-gave-nathan-025-more-in

 

Maybe this was the result of an hypercorrectness, a sort of way to show that she wasn't biased towards Nathan or other "rivals" of Yuzu, but in doing so at the end she damaged Yuzuru, because actually she made count the scores of the USA judge (in the case of Chen) and of the Russian and Uzbekistan judge (in the cases of Kolyada, Ge and Kvitelashvili). And if you look at her scores in FS, all her marks are above average (again in green) for each component and for each skater up to the sixth classified skater, with the only exception in CO for Yuzuru.

 

@yuzuangel, thank you for your amazing and interesting work: I am using that site too and looking at your charts some phenomena are more evident (sadly ...).

It is also true that sometimes is very difficult to find informations about the judges background. Mostly you can find only the other competitions they were attending.

 

 

[robin]

2 hours ago, yuzuangel said:

Yeah, definitely seems like ladies event has more politics involved. In hindsight I'm not that surprised, since the BV for most of the ladies are pretty close together...it comes down to GOE/PCS for them.

 

You're right, in a way the men can control their own fate a little bit better by upping their technical content and adding to their BV. (But I guess that's easier said than done.) There's also edge and UR calls (or questionable lack thereof) which have a bigger influence on scores in the ladies field so overall politicking can go a longer way there

[Joey]

52 minutes ago, fireovertheice said:

 

Yes, she did a wonderful job indeed !

Pratically she was playing the second American among the judges: not only she gave higher mark than Yuzuru to Chen in TR, but also in PE ; her scores and those of the USA judge are the only all in green, i.e. above the medium score obtained by Chen.

More: she gave sometimes better GOE to Chen than the USA judge (4F, 4T+combo, 3A, 3A+combo), while in scoring Yuzu she was more or less in the average with the exception of the 4T+3T: http://skatingscores.com/2018/gprus/men/long/

 

About her scores at CoR 2017 see also this ironic - and informative - blog entry: https://fuckyeahdearlybeloved.tumblr.com/post/166667788816/one-of-the-judges-j3-gave-nathan-025-more-in

 

Maybe this was the result of an hypercorrectness, a sort of way to show that she wasn't biased towards Nathan or other "rivals" of Yuzu, but in doing so at the end she damaged Yuzuru, because actually she made count the scores of the USA judge (in the case of Chen) and of the Russian and Uzbekistan judge (in the cases of Kolyada, Ge and Kvitelashvili). And if you look at her scores in FS, all her marks are above average (again in green) for each component and for each skater up to the sixth classified skater, with the only exception in CO for Yuzuru.

 

There is also this analysis by the Skating Protocol: https://www.instagram.com/p/BahHfJIBQzO/?hl=en&taken-by=skatingprotocol

It's the direct scores every single judge gave, without averaging. Ms. Azuma scored most of them higher then average, but what sticks out is that she had Nathan winning the FS over Yuzu - by a bigger margin then the US judge even

[kaeryth]

Haven't read everything yet but translations are out

 

[axelsandwich]

3 hours ago, kaeryth said:

Haven't read everything yet but translations are out

 

Thank you to all the translators, each podcast is a truly monster job, but there's so much interesting insight  Looking forward to reading this

[GreatLakesGal]

Based on what we're seeing right now, I think Nathan is the skater most likely to keep Yuzu from winning a second OGM. He's looking strong right now and seems to have better nerves than Shoma--and he's beaten Yuzu twice. Also, the US Federation is quite strong and they appear to be putting all their political strength behind Chen. 

 

That said, the ice is slippery and the Olympics is especially unpredictable. Javi, for example, could end up surprising everyone and winning it all. 

[Joey]

2 hours ago, GreatLakesGal said:

Based on what we're seeing right now, I think Nathan is the skater most likely to keep Yuzu from winning a second OGM. He's looking strong right now and seems to have better nerves than Shoma--and he's beaten Yuzu twice. Also, the US Federation is quite strong and they appear to be putting all their political strength behind Chen. 

 

That said, the ice is slippery and the Olympics is especially unpredictable. Javi, for example, could end up surprising everyone and winning it all. 

 

That was my thought since I saw his new programs. There is still room to grow, and I really don't agree with his scores, but the programs are good, play to his strengths while hiding his weaknesses, and he obviously enjoys skating them. It's always hard to say how the Olys will go though, Nathan has good nerves in general, but Olys are something else... I hope he isn't peaking to early or ends up giving his best at the team event (given that USA are going in wanting to get a medal, I'd think he'll have to take part in the team event in some form).

And he does have the advantage of being healthy (and please stay healthy ._.) - Yuzu has the ankle injury, Boyang has an ankle injury (right foot too), Shoma has one according to injuries and had that nasty flu before IdF, Patrick still struggles with coming back from injuries and motivation, Javi had that food poisoning... this damned season

[kaeryth]

Finally finished reading the translation for Kiss & Cry episode 6. I love how Max and Angelo talk about building a program to a skater's strength and how they emphasize spins on this episode - something most skaters do because it's required but doesn't put emphasis/effort on it (Marin, I love you but get your spin levels dear).  I think yuzuangel's graphs were really revealing and as Max and Angelo pointed out - for the top ladies, their BV capabilities are just about the same and building their program to maximise GOEs and strengths are so important. Eteri's team has definitely been able to crack this. Also, kudos to the Kobe team! they are really learning and adapting well to the COP. Both Mai and Kaori's programs play to their strengths to maximise scoring(whether they are being rewarded for it is another thing).

[Dori6886]

Nathan just had a press conference apparently. Looks like he won't attempt 4Lo in his FP . He also said he want to go to college next year and try to balance it with skating and probably stay for another 4 years (he said ""I think"according to Jackie)

If you click on the tweet there's more.

 

ETA: I also found this interesting stats on twitter:

 

[meoima]

If Nathan doesn’t bring 4lo to Olympic then the chance is that he might skate quite well at the Olympics. Generally skaters don’t try new elements in the Olympic season because the pressure goes with it is huge. 

[Joey]

Dunno, at this point in time tbh I wouldn't be surprised if the young hungry, challenging, super awesome quad jumpers won't be going for their new quads at the Olys, while old granddaddy fossil Yuzu will. Can't lie, that would crack me up, given the narrative the media has been trying to push there.

 

It's a smart choice for Nathan though to not include the 4Lo. He doesn't need it when he can repeat the 4Lz, and he can gain more out of focusing on choreo/performance too IMO. And I also have to admit I'm too worried for his hip when he does it. Good to know he plans to stay another 4 years, I'd love to see him stick around and develop.

[EisElle]

@Joey your post has just made crack me up thank you

In which competitions Nathan landed the 4Lo other than US classic? Japan Open?

I'm glad he's putting the loop in stand by for now, he's already got hip surgery once so I am worried...and he has a loooong preparation for it (LOL, I got spoiled) though the jump is good. And good to hear he has some long-term plan for skating. tbh I see a bigger potential in him (and Boyang) than in Shoma, tho for now Shoma is (and has been for a while) ahead of both in components. SS and expression can improve a lot with time and proper training and transitions can be added, but jumping flaws are way harder to deal with (tho Nate's words are also a good answer to the fears about him being a one-hit wonder that will disappear as soon as he gets an oly medal)

[PapiandPooh422]

4 hours ago, Joey said:

Dunno, at this point in time tbh I wouldn't be surprised if the young hungry, challenging, super awesome quad jumpers won't be going for their new quads at the Olys, while old granddaddy fossil Yuzu will. Can't lie, that would crack me up, given the narrative the media has been trying to push there.

 

It's a smart choice for Nathan though to not include the 4Lo. He doesn't need it when he can repeat the 4Lz, and he can gain more out of focusing on choreo/performance too IMO. And I also have to admit I'm too worried for his hip when he does it. Good to know he plans to stay another 4 years, I'd love to see him stick around and develop.

I'm so sorry if this will be a nonsense post but.... 

[beki]

My reservations come from the fact Nathan is applying to truly top-tier schools. I think it will be really hard for him to balance those course loads with a skating career. Up to him to try of course. Paul Wylie went to Harvard.